There have been several discussions lately, usually surrounding elusive, that are really talking bad on red maneuvers.

The usual complaint is that a red maneuver eats an action, and thus elusive requires an action to be used.

But... But... don't people need to use red moves on occasion? I don't know about you guys, but S-Loops, T-Rolls, and K-Turns can be very useful moves. Posters seem to be implying that no one would ever want to do a red move because it eats your action, but, sometimes, don't you want to do red moves? Am I wrong here?

I doubt there is any game played nearly ever that did not need a red move. Even the best players have to execute red moves on every once and a while. Wouldn't a red move be preferable to getting shot in the back? Someone back me up here...

It depends on your squad, of course, but a lot of the time a red maneuver is a sign that you've not planned far enough ahead.

Also: Elusive is bad.

You're not wrong. Red moves can be very useful. I think Elusive may be a sleeper hit in second edition. Maybe people are just stuck on "hate Elusiveness" mode because the first edition version was bad.

some ships yes you will have to do a red move, however in some case like with an Interceptor i maybe did a K-turn once every 300 moves

i'll be using Elusive with Soontir, i mean finally a way to reroll green dice, even if i only use it once per game

No red moves are inherently bad, it is a matter of sacrifice. Some ships will absolutely need to have an action to be useful for a turn ( exemple, turning you turret) . In most building, the player don't want to make this sacrifice. For other builds, this action can be sacrificed in order to get a perfect position ( for one turn and more) . IMO, I will make lot of red moves with Vader for example ( force token, target lock, he can pass on his action) but not with a tie phantom ( the focus is too important for his shot)

17 minutes ago, SOTL said:

It depends on your squad, of course, but a lot of the time a red maneuver is a sign that you've not planned far enough ahead.

Also: Elusive is bad.

I disagree, I think Elusive looks to be very good on named B-Wings. Both have dials full of useful red maneuvers (hard 1s all day e'rry day), both have abilities that use stress and both have access to Adv Sensors to get their action anyway. Also with only a single defence die, a single re-roll could go a long way on them.

Whether or not the B-Wing itself is a viable platform at all is another question, I suppose. But Elusive definitely has uses.

8 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

I disagree, I think Elusive looks to be very good on named B-Wings. Both have dials full of useful red maneuvers (hard 1s all day e'rry day), both have abilities that use stress and both have access to Adv Sensors to get their action anyway. Also with only a single defence die, a single re-roll could go a long way on them.

Whether or not the B-Wing itself is a viable platform at all is another question, I suppose. But Elusive definitely has uses.

I don’t see much of a reason that the B Wing won’t be useful. I am very much looking forward to it.

30 minutes ago, SOTL said:

It depends on your squad, of course, but a lot of the time a red maneuver is a sign that you've not planned far enough ahead.

Also: Elusive is bad.

That wasn't always true. Alternating Red and Green Maneuvers was a big part of the classic B-wing strategy, especially with advanced sensors. And while Advanced Sensors got more expensive, B-wings got cheaper. 2.0 Biggs walks the Dogs actually has points to spare compared to its 1.0 version.

Because it's a stressful decision to make!

people hate redmoves because they require them to think about what theyre doing since the stress messes up their plans.

I feel like I'm being called out a bit on this one. For the record I think Elusive is a good upgrade, though it is very dial dependent.

Elusive is not only good, but probably one of the most generally useful talents in the game

If I ever have to run howlie, she flies with Elusive.

26 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

I feel like I'm being called out a bit on this one. For the record I think Elusive is a good upgrade, though it is very dial dependent.

Sorry, didn't mean to call you out specifically. I've seen at least 1 other poster, possibly more, echo the same thought.

It just struck me as odd as calling out what is essentially a core mechanic as such a negative.

1 minute ago, Stinger07 said:

Sorry, didn't mean to call you out specifically. I've seen at least 1 other poster, possibly more, echo the same thought.

It just struck me as odd as calling out what is essentially a core mechanic as such a negative.

Well red moves are negative by design. You don't want to be doing them unless you have to, because they apply stress to you, and stress is bad. That said, some ships are comfortable with it because they have a great set of blue moves that they can use to clear that stress.

basically if the ship isnt destined to another talent (defenders w/ juke) or the frame just never does red moves, Elusive is a good pick.

It starts charged so its good on the initial joust too.

What about any advanced sensor ship?
Echo - Elusive, advances sensors, stealth device
Uncloak, gain an evade, do advanced sensors focus, do a k-turn. You end up having k-turned into a possibly unpredictable position, you still have focus + evade, plus if you don't get shot at and/or keep your evade, you just cloak back to open up your next move even thought you are stressed.

Problem is phantoms LOVE juke, and there's no reason not to upscale for a measly point more

Other good advanced sensor ships, like Redline or Deathrain (well, his ability is sorta advanced sensors...) can't take it

EDIT: Remembered a good one!

Elusive Kad Solus!

I tried elusiveness with IG-88 and advanced sensors yesterday. Now that ship is almost configured by design to want to do k-turns and S-loops behind an opponent. Not losing an action in the process and recovering elusiveness after moving behind an opponent (who probably shot at you the turn before) felt quite satisfying. Out of both IGs, I think I used elusiveness about 8 times in that game.

39 minutes ago, dotswarlock said:

I tried elusiveness with IG-88 and advanced sensors yesterday. Now that ship is almost configured by design to want to do k-turns and S-loops behind an opponent. Not losing an action in the process and recovering elusiveness after moving behind an opponent (who probably shot at you the turn before) felt quite satisfying. Out of both IGs, I think I used elusiveness about 8 times in that game.

Yes, Elusive should be really good on ships which are designed to do red maneuvers often. Strikers, Reapers and TIE/SFs should all love it, and recharge it without any problem..

Well red moves are worse than red actions, even though at the end both give you a stress and force you to do a blue to remove it, the maneuver is heavier than the action because you still get the action. Now with the super action economy of wave 1 and the dials of older ships opened up a bit more (to include more blue than green) that places more weight on red maneuvers.

So yeah sort of you don't get the action, but also when actions started to give you stress red maneuvers took even more pressure.

3 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

Well red moves are negative by design. You don't want to be doing them unless you have to, because they apply stress to you, and stress is bad. That said, some ships are comfortable with it because they have a great set of blue moves that they can use to clear that stress.

Well, I would disagree. Red moves are not negative, they are POWERFUL by design. They present an advantage that is somehow desirable over their more common white/blue counterparts. Because they are powerful, they come with a downside, and that is stress. Compare a red move to spending your only action on a red barrel roll. They are the exact same outcome: leaving your ship in a different position. Heck, even a white barrel roll has the same outcome except that you don't need to take the blue next turn.

Also, an unmodded shot is always preferable to no shot at all, all other things equal, is it not?

Stress is not bad, it is a consequence. It is a cost for doing something that puts you at an advantage. I would argue that there are quite a few situations where you would want to do something, like a red move or a linked action or anything else that may cause stress. I would never say "You don't want to do red moves or red actions" but rather "A move or action that causes stress must be well thought before executing".

Sometimes you do need to red move to either not be shot or to stay on target. But why do that when you can properly approach and thus keep actions? We all do red maneuvers in games, but we don't want to lose efficiency building specifically for them. I.e., adrenaline rush is amazing on TIE defenders/sf's/bombers/etc, but better options exist for those craft. Heck, even contraband cybernetics is a panic button for illicit that should not be used lightly.

I loved primed thrusters in 1e because it was so surprising or to deal with stress dealers. Similarly, advanced sensors mod/reposition + k turn/talon was awesome on 1e Corran or Kylo. But general power nerfs mean that it is harder to justify the pouring of points into such tricks.

But I am a proponent of elusive on kad solus

4 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Sometimes you do need to red move to either not be shot or to stay on target. But why do that when you can properly approach and thus keep actions? We all do red maneuvers in games, but we don't want to lose efficiency building specifically for them. I.e., adrenaline rush is amazing on TIE defenders/sf's/bombers/etc, but better options exist for those craft. Heck, even contraband cybernetics is a panic button for illicit that should not be used lightly.

I loved primed thrusters in 1e because it was so surprising or to deal with stress dealers. Similarly, advanced sensors mod/reposition + k turn/talon was awesome on 1e Corran or Kylo. But general power nerfs mean that it is harder to justify the pouring of points into such tricks.

But I am a proponent of elusive on kad solus

I am not arguing for elusive precisely nor am I advocating that people build a list around assuming red moves. I am just wondering why red moves are talked down upon. As if a player is suddenly a bad player because they expect to use red moves in a game. Everyone uses them. And for the intermediate player, something like elusive proves to be an insurance policy for their bad flying. The solution may be to "git gud" but in the mean time, elusive or Ten Numb are there for us while they learn.

Hard 1 + Boost makes red maneuvers harder to justify, you'll get a good turn around without limiting yourself to a blue maneuver on the following turn.

Lack of non-action dice modifications also make red maneuvers harder to justify as well. 1.0 Predator allowed you to take a strong shot at an opponent, 2.0 you gotta hit that narrow Bullseye arc.