20 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

And I dare say @MajorJuggler had the same experience.

It's sad to see all the old guard hang up their hats; it just kinda feels like 2.0 wrecked it all.

I keep hoping that Fergus will find a way to put the final flourish on his builder and leave it there for posterity. My brother still uses it, bugs and all, because we loved it so well.

Yup basically. I could keep doing stuff and let the devs use it, but... meh?

15 hours ago, SOTL said:

I've been a big user of Metawing & Listjuggler. On balance, though, I think it's better for the health of the game of information flows less freely and I'm not too sad to see them go.

10 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Like, um, that's great.

This is supposed to be an experiential game, not a math-based, data-base laden exercise in probabilities and weighed scores.

Less trends is more diversity. More diversity is less perfect lists. Less perfect lists is less broken combo exploitation.

Unless you are a WAAC player, it only makes the game better.

It's a freaking game. Nobody's changing the world by winning the championship.

That is one potential good side. The flip side is that for players that can figure out the good lists / combos first, it makes the local games even more of a turkey shoot.

23 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

Returning to a bogus time before ListJuggler existed ...

5 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Yeah whatever happened to that podcast? I am actually surprised S&V is still alive.

5 hours ago, sozin said:

It is still kicking! I haven't been on it in a while (real life keeps getting in the way), but their recent episodes have been pretty awesome.

https://scumvillainy.podbean.com/

@sozin, the quote was from Nova Squadron Radio, it was one of our "ads" voiced by Chad, followed by:

"... back when tournament results were compiled in the most heinous way possible... manually." Ed: "Whoa!"

(apparently this is still burned into my brain)

FFGs app is not going to be just a YASB-like listbuilder. Its going to collect information, like everything does these days. Dont be surprised if premier events have you submit your list via the app so FFG creates their own data pool to go by. They arent going to blindly set point costs on a few games they watch at worlds or whatever the forums complain about. That data is coming from somewhere, and that somewhere is the app. Whether they share this info with the public via the app/website is another question. I would bet "No".

Information travels fast and all the broken **** will still spread like a California wildfire with or without listjuggler. Its an analytical tool, nothing more. It just verified what **** was broken with actual statistics. So you could say something like "80% of regionals had at least one Nymranda list make top4. Instead of "most regionals probably had a nymranda list make top4." We know its broken ****. With LJ, we can put a number to it.

I dont think its a surprise when you would see Miranda, rebel fenn, Low as the top flown rebel ships. You know they were up there, and Low being no.1 while fenn being no. 2 doesnt change anything in your list building decisions. Its just a conversation piece that is cool to see or blog about discussing trends.

23 hours ago, kraedin said:

Huh. FFG is planning to revise costs 3-4 times per year. What data are they planning to base that on if they're not making any provision for collecting lists?

I have really wondered this myself. It's not clear that the devs have ever kept up with the forums, reddit, vassal, or listjuggler communities. Maybe they do, or maybe they will, but that is a big job. But if they have not done that in the past, I really wonder what data has been used to inform decisions to errata cards in the past during 1.0's run ... I mean the devs had their finger on the pulse of the competitive game to some degree, it seems.


But it is sort of surprising that FFGOP hasn't required TOs to formally log at least the Top 4 squads at big official events (e.g. at least Regionals and above, but Store Champs would make sense too). Lots of other competitive games have some form of official result tracking, but FFG seems to have always left this outsourced to the community. Given that results will be paramount to informing the app-price-updates that will be happening throughout 2.0, I really wonder how FFG is planning to gather that data and make informed decisions.

3 hours ago, wurms said:

FFGs app is not going to be just a YASB-like listbuilder. Its going to collect information, like everything does these days. Dont be surprised if premier events have you submit your list via the app so FFG creates their own data pool to go by.

I'd be quite surprised if that happens for 2 reasons:

- FFG has said you will be able to build squads offline with the PDFs. Going back on that will get part of the community pretty riled up.

- The app won't be available in regions where X-wing isn't officially supported (confirmed by FFG AFAIK) and guys from these regions travel to take part in official tournaments.

11 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Yeah whatever happened to that podcast? I am actually surprised S&V is still alive.

11 hours ago, sozin said:

It is still kicking! I haven't been on it in a while (real life keeps getting in the way), but their recent episodes have been pretty awesome.

https://scumvillainy.podbean.com/

Oh I know that is still alive, it was the only one from the old Big-3 that still around. I meant am surprised S&V didn't follow them since there was a time when they stopped talking about enjoying X-wing and even briefly became a L5R podcast.

Just my speculation, but:

5 hours ago, wurms said:

FFGs app is not going to be just a YASB-like listbuilder. Its going to collect information, like everything does these days. Dont be surprised if premier events have you submit your list via the app so FFG creates their own data pool to go by.

I absolutely expect that to happen. One, very simple way, would be to show your TO a QR code and he scans every list. Those (probably very few) without the app can still provide printouts, and these may or may not be added manually.

My question is which levels of play will have that. Everything OP? Only premier?

5 hours ago, wurms said:

They arent going to blindly set point costs on a few games they watch at worlds or whatever the forums complain about. That data is coming from somewhere, and that somewhere is the app. Whether they share this info with the public via the app/website is another question. I would bet "No".

Completely agreed. They won't share it, and they won't pass on the opportunity with the app.

14 hours ago, MajorJuggler said:

That is one potential good side. The flip side is that for players that can figure out the good lists / combos first, it makes the local games even more of a turkey shoot.

This (and many statements like it) make it seem like most people think that listbuilding is not a skill that should be part of the game.

Ergo, it's better to have the it all mathed out beforehand, so that when you show up, there is no chance you built a subpar list that would ruin the experience of play.

Shouldn't players that figure out good lists and combos first be rewarded for that??

There are two things that I would like to say.

First off, thank you to all of those involved (from those who actually coded it, did the math or simply entered the results) for all of the efforts that were put into making ListJuggler a reality. A lot of time, passion, energy and love of the game was put into it and it is worth noting. I used it less as a source of finding the next over powered list and more as source of inspiration, but also as a way to envision other metas. Sometimes, reading tournament results felt less like a statistical thing and more like reading a story (I have a vivid imagination, heh).

The second point, and this is merely speculation, is that as far as I can tell, version 2.0 seems to be less centered around what list you fly but rather how you fly it. It is much, much harder to stack multiple defensive mods that can net you 4 evades or an offensive assault that constantly allows you to deal 4 or 5 hits. The few proxy games that we did were much longer than anticipated and the middle and end games were equally important. How we fly was never covered by list juggler (in a satistical way at any rate) and is much harder to quantify. Things will get very, very interesting in the coming months of V2

12 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

This (and many statements like it) make it seem like most people think that listbuilding is not a skill that should be part of the game.

Ergo, it's better to have the it all mathed out beforehand, so that when you show up, there is no chance you built a subpar list that would ruin the experience of play.

Shouldn't players that figure out good lists and combos first be rewarded for that??

I think it's gone way past players figuring out lists on their own at the top of competitive X-wing. Many top players seem to be part of large-is groups that break down the meta, theorycraft and practice together.

ListJuggler gave people who weren't part of such groups an equivalent tool in regard to breaking down the meta and theorycrafting, that s why I m sad to see it go.

I also don't think no ListJuggler will mean less netlisting, as IMO most people copy what does well at large premier events like System Opens, rather than what does consistently well in dozens of small tournaments (which is where ListJuggler'data gathering capabilities really shine).

One thing I wanted to say -- I'm totally not hanging up my hat as a player! I'm super excited about 2.0 -- AFAIKT its the game I've been wanting for about 8 waves now! I played my first 2.0 game last night and had a blast (TIE Swarm!!)

I had an issue with List Juggler. How can I get ahold of Sozin

Hi, you can DM me here :-)

On 8/18/2018 at 1:42 PM, mcrummel said:

I had an issue with List Juggler. How can I get ahold of Sozin

Sozin, any plans to return to S&V soon? I always enjoyed your analysis.

On 8/14/2018 at 11:48 PM, kraedin said:

Huh. FFG is planning to revise costs 3-4 times per year. What data are they planning to base that on if they're not making any provision for collecting lists?

Sales... If it isn't being purchased, then points will be adjusted to make it more attractive/undesirable.