It occurs to me that on some ships, 2.0 Elusive might be working quite similarly to Lightweight frame in 1.0.

I was thinking mostly about TIE Strikers, but Reapers could probably also work fine.

Strikers generally like to use those tasty sloops after the initial engagement, so it should not be a big problem to recharge.

And math seems to be also quite similar.

3 red + focus vs 2 green + focus + elusive = 0.741 expected dmg

3 red + focus vs 3 green (ie 2 + LWF) + focus = 0.638 expected dmg

3 red + focus vs 2 green + focus = 1.074 expected dmg

Thoughts?

[EDIT: Fixed the math - forgot to check the red focus in calculator..]

LF let you dodge attacks that you normally could not (three hits), Elusive does not. Lightweight frame didn't require an action to use, Elusive does.

elusive isn't LWF (lwf was needed for 1st ed, not here)

but it's still probably one of the best talents in the game atm, just becaus it's an action independent modifier

I've even put it on hwks, knowing I'll never do a red maneuver

3 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

LF let you dodge attacks that you normally could not (three hits), Elusive does not. Lightweight frame didn't require an action to use, Elusive does.

You spend a charge to re-roll, and then red moves recharge it. No actions needed.

3 minutes ago, BVRCH said:

You spend a charge to re-roll, and then red moves recharge it. No actions needed.

The red move eats your action.

Just now, HolySorcerer said:

The red move eats your action.

If you're playing it like that, then you're doing it wrong. Elusive is an insurance policy, either you have an action and get a green token for mods, or you pull a red and don't get an action but still have a re-roll.

Sorceror means that if you recharge, it costs you an action on the turn you do a red. Barring advanced sensors or something, that's true in all cases, whether you play around it or not. Since you're losing an action, it's comparable with r5, chopper, or gonk regen.

The important thing, which I think BVRCH is getting at, is whether the action loss is at an important time. Making r5 effective relies on escaping the battlefield so you have time to do regen actions. Making elusive effective relies on doing red moves at a time when it's safe to do so OR (as OP points out) using a ship which is likely to pull red moves anyway.

I'm always slooping strikers so I'm gonna roll with OP's suggestion.

9 minutes ago, gadwag said:

I'm always slooping strikers so I'm gonna roll with OP's suggestion.

Amen!

I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that Lightweight frame works on every defense roll (where the attacker rolls more dice than you do, which is most of the time) while Elusive works on only 1 defense roll, and then you have to recharge it by doing a red maneuver. If you're facing multiple attacks in the same round (or even across 2 or 3 consecutive rounds) then Elusive only helps so much.

1 hour ago, Herowannabe said:

I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that Lightweight frame works on every defense roll (where the attacker rolls more dice than you do, which is most of the time) while Elusive works on only 1 defense roll, and then you have to recharge it by doing a red maneuver. If you're facing multiple attacks in the same round (or even across 2 or 3 consecutive rounds) then Elusive only helps so much.

I came to say exactly that.

Elusive is garbage.

5 hours ago, BVRCH said:

If you're playing it like that, then you're doing it wrong. Elusive is an insurance policy, either you have an action and get a green token for mods, or you pull a red and don't get an action but still have a re-roll.

This. Strikers will be pulling red moves quite a bit anyway . I wouldn't pull a red move specifically to recover elusive, but it means that after looping or turning you get something out of it - and it's a something that sticks around if you're not forced to spend it that turn.

9 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

LF let you dodge attacks that you normally could not (three hits), Elusive does not.

Accepted. Lightweight Frame lets you exceed your maximum number of evade results. However, rolling 'perfect' evades is generally a best-case scenario anyway without focus/evade, which is hard for a striker to get.

9 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

elusive isn't LWF (lwf was needed for 1st ed, not here)

but it's still probably one of the best talents in the game atm, just becaus it's an action independent modifier

And it's (proportionately) a point cheaper than lightweight frame would have been.

2 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that Lightweight frame works on every defense roll (where the attacker rolls more dice than you do, which is most of the time) while Elusive works on only 1 defense roll, and then you have to recharge it by doing a red maneuver. If you're facing multiple attacks in the same round (or even across 2 or 3 consecutive rounds) then Elusive only helps so much.

Also accepted. But anything which can boost up your durability is relatively rare, and a stealth device (which also arguably works 'once' unless you completely dodge the first attack) is twice the price, and you don't have to spend elusive until it's 'needed' - it's not 'on your first defence roll'.

Because the two 'feed off' one another, stealth + elusive isn't that bad a combination for the aces, especially since it also provides benefits Lightweight Frame didn't - giving Strikers credible protection from massed 2-dice attacks (because you get 3 dice with a back-pocket reroll, whilst a lightweight frame striker gets only 2 dice) - relevant in a world where the TIE/ln swarm is likely back with a vengeance - and getting a 4th green die in a lot of situations where the lightweight frame striker doesn't (range 3 and obstructed shots, for example).

I dont know about a LWF replacement but in practice I was very surprised how useful elusive was on the reaper. I expected it to be useless but it ended up saving 2-3 damage during the game.

I think those that say Elusive is not a good option haven't had time to see it in action. As @Magnus Grendel stated, there are few defense modifiers in the game. Remember when people said the Emperor was a bad choice? I agree with @ficklegreendice and think it's one of the best Talents in the game (still hard not to say EPT). It will come in handy and people will use it.

Elusive on a HWK is not a bad idea. I have a friend who would put Stealth Device on a HWK in a tourny list and he said it almost always got it's points worth out of it. The HWK dial is better these days, but a hard stop or 3 Bank is still red. I can see using those.

Porkins could be really good with an Elusive. Just make sure to give him a repair bot.

@ficklegreendice - I'm shocked and dismayed that you're advocating the use of points on something that rarely allows the chance to re-roll a single green die. It's most likely to come up blank again anyway...

Yeah, LWF is a more powerful card, which is probably the reason they did not include it in 2.0.

But Elusive seems to be the closest thing we have, and it looks pretty decent for the price.

One strict advantage of Elusive would be at range 3, where LWF didn't really do anything (assuming 2 agility ship vs. 3 attack dice).

And also 2 agility against 2 red dice at range 2, as was already mentioned..

Yeah, gotta adjust expectations for 2nd Ed. Elusive is a **** good reimagining of lwf

Put it on any jousters but especially important ones like Howlie or synergy like Sollus

Maybe even on Bren (though I REALLY dislike his new ability...)

Elusive is not close to LWF.

LWF: Procs on every 3 dice attack, doesn't have to reload with a red maneuver.

Elusive: No attack/defense dice restriction, effectively limited to once per turn, requires a red maneuver (that doesn't bump) to recharge.