Okay, so Latari have had a pretty static set of resources available to them since they came out and were relatively quickly given their expansion box upgrades. As such, most of the changes Latari players have made to their armies have been, I think it's safe to say, more in reaction to the shifts in the meta that other armies' releases have brought about, at least up to this point.

So now that we have a new, pretty major tool in our toolbox that we didn't have before, what are you looking to do with Darnati Warriors? What list concepts have you been wanting to try, but needed a melee infantry unit to make work?

What features of the Darnati excite you and present opportunities to solve problems in ways other units don't, or present new challenges to other players to react to?

Discuss!

I'm mostly planning on ignoring them, at least right now.

Not that I think they're a bad unit. They just don't fit in with my recent builds, which have tended to be high-risk, high reward. Fly high or crash and burn.

Now, when the Ventala Skirmishers come out, I'm going to get two or three boxes of them.

I'm going to slay them, then raise their corpses to fight for Waiqar. (Sorry, I couldn't resist ☺️ ).

If I played Latari, I would be very excited for 9-tray Darnati with a bunch of ranged units to back it up. A key component that makes me very excited is putting Warsong Herald on the Darnati Warriors so that Maegan Cyndewin hero can reroll a die when she attacks. Here's the kind of list I'd be looking at:

197/200

Darnati Warriors [60] 3x3
Blackthorn Assassin [7]
Shield Wall [5]
Frontline Aymhelin Scion [6]
Warsong Herald [3]
Triumphant Cry [3]
Total Unit Cost: 84

Maegan Cyndewin [36] 1x1
Martial Magic [3]
Total Unit Cost: 39

Deepwood Archers [30] 2x2
Rallying Starling [4]
Total Unit Cost: 34

Deepwood Archers [17] 2x1
Tempered Steel [3]
Total Unit Cost: 20

Deepwood Archers [17] 2x1
Tempered Steel [3]
Total Unit Cost: 20

Not sure how valid this is. I'd have to drop a ton of money to make this work: roughly $270 MSRP. Or I could just borrow a Latari army to try it out. I think Warsong Herald has been waiting for the Darnati. Shield Wall and Blackthorn Assassin are there to keep the Darnati hanging on longer, Rallying Starling on the 4-tray Archers keeps Shield Wall readied, along with Tempered Steel on the other Deepwood Archers. Meagan will be limited to range 1-3 ranged attacks, but she wants to be close anyway so she could charge into melee and roll more dice. This is the first Latari list I have ever made, so I could be completely out in left field on this one.

I'm very excited about the release of the Darnati, and have started including them in some fashion in most of my builds. Here are some generic thoughts on each build type:

2x1: This is now the most expensive infantry, but the highest average damage of all infantry units. The combination of 3 dice, one removed, and the ability to spend your surges for Lethal produce both a very consistent amount of damage and a much higher average damage. And by that, I mean about 1 point more of damage. That means these units should be very good run naked, if you so desire, and can fill various rolls (flanker, blocker, objective grabber) depending upon what the opponent has brought. If you have to block something smallish, a speed-1 armor-up followed by an attack next round should keep you at 2 trays. Given their speed and mobility, they also share in common with the Bezerker, the synergy with taking some light upgrades. Together with Maegan, you might also try putting a Verdant or Dreamweaver Sorceress on them. This would be a cheap Verdant platform that trails and finishes. Or with the mobility of the Darnati, they could rush forward and put a stun on a key target.

2x2: This is the one I'm not sure about. You gain rerolls, but you don't gain that much average damage as a result. They basically become a points filler if you've got other units in your lists and need that final piece to the equation. This is also a cheap champion platform, of which there are several choices that might constrict what units approaching the rest of your list can do.

3x2: This is one of my favorite cost/power formations. I'm really looking forward to the synergy that Warsong Herald brings. They make a decent Dispatch runner platform. You also come really close to that 10 damage threshold on average. All it takes is a hit/surge and hit modifier and you've got it.

3x3: Much like the other factions' star units, the Darnstar shares mobility in common with Bezerkers, but the armor modifier and the fact that Shield Wall looks great, but something like Tempered Steel is less efficient against the Elf Surge for Lethal make them a nice defensive front. Avenger of Latriana can help by allowing you to set a late initiative dial and still attack if you get charged.

I think some of the build problems I've encountered generally stem from wanting to put both Moment of Inspiration and Shield Wall on unit. That's an awful lot to ready, and you can only take so much inspiration. I think you're probably better off with just one. Pathwalker's amulet is nice for a small boost, and Lay of the Land, which comes in the Darnati pack, might enable more flanks, recovering that die that Moment of Inspiration brought you. Shield wall has a lot of merit especially when you consider that Elves can shoot out a lot of trays as a unit approaches. First Blade of Aenoth could also be very interesting if you can end an activation with a powerful stack, but want to pull an opponent toward that stuck for some reason, perhaps breaking their charge, or at least keeping a guessing game going.

That's actually not far off one of the lists I'd been considering, Parakitor.

I didn't bring it up in the initial post because I didn't want to steer the discussion, but I absolutely agree on Warsong Herald. Shield Wall is one that I'm excited to try, but not positive will stick vs. something more offensive like Mastercrafted.

Vergilius, I agree that small Darnati units retain their damage well... Lethal Surges do work even at 1 tray. 4 tray doesn't really excite me; at that size and point cost, I think I'd almost always rather just do stuff with Archers.

6 trays will probably be a staple, hitting that sweet spot between price and survivability, and getting 3 threat makes it a bargain. If you can afford to make it a centerpiece, 9 trays does stuff.

Interesting Kaffis.

I spent the weekend working through the math of different Darnati builds and upgrades. I saw Mastercrafted and thought it might be great at first glance, but you're already getting two damage from the surges. So that's only a net improvement of 1. But even that isn't definite. You're really at your best when you've got two hit/surge icons showing. If I'm reading my numbers correctly, the net damage improvement for taking MC Weapons is only .69 per roll. At 4 points, compare it to something like Serrated Spines at 1.5 points per roll. The MC weapons assumes you are taking Moment of Inspiration to generate even more surge possibilities. and of course the 3 wide trays are the only ones that actually improve damage. The fact that the damage improvement is very low leads me to think that defensive upgrades are better. The idea seems to be to find match-ups and game solutions that allow you one more turn of damage, for which the last fraction of a tray is still probably worth 3 points of damage. That can get very multiplicative if you keep rerolls for longer, stay at threat 3 for longer, and so forth. Shield Wall pretty much requires a refresh mechanic, but in the absence of one in your build, Pathwalker's Amulet does about half the effect for slightly more than half the points.

I suspect that some of the Uthuk problem in the meta is a failure to recognize that once engaged, they do about the same damage as everyone else, and if one could use armor upgrades to trade unevenly with them, you'll pull ahead in the end. The elves especially can get a lot of damage off of well-built archers, which means they really need the Darnati to be able to hold up and stay up.

No, that's me being boneheaded (and never really taking Mastercrafted on anything because why in Latari?) and forgetting that it takes two surges. It would still be Tempered Steel you'd take for offensive Darnati.

I'm not sure you give up the utility of something like Lay of the Land to add Moment in, too, especially when you're already looking to refresh Tempered, now. On the other hand, white dice are pretty good for Darnati. Adding dice does dilute the efficiency of the discard one some, as you're more likely to have two bum rolls. So you definitely wouldn't take it on a small unit without good rerolls already.

Most of the really juicy fighting options for equipment and training are going to require refreshing synergies, so it's a good thing we've got Rallying Starlings. I think that, as I pointed out, I'll most likely keep putting Starlings in Archer units, which can refresh while shooting from safety, where a Darnati's Starling is either in jeopardy on the front lines with you (and potentially refreshing fewer things) or wasting its potential for attacking because it's a melee behind the line.

9 minutes ago, kaffis said:

No, that's me being boneheaded (and never really taking Mastercrafted on anything because why in Latari?) and forgetting that it takes two surges. It would still be Tempered Steel you'd take for offensive Darnati.

I'm not sure you give up the utility of something like Lay of the Land to add Moment in, too, especially when you're already looking to refresh Tempered, now. On the other hand, white dic  e are pretty good for Darnati. Adding dice does dilute the efficiency of the discard one some, as you're more likely to have two bum rolls. So you definitely wouldn't take it on a small unit without good rerolls already.

Most of the really juicy fighting options for equipment and training are going to require refreshing synergies, so it's a good thing we've got Rallying Starlings. I think that, as I pointed out, I'll most likely keep putting Starlings in Archer units, which can refresh while shooting from safety, where a Darnati's Starling is either in jeopardy on the front lines with you (and potentially refreshing fewer things) or wasting its potential for attacking because it's a melee behind the line.

I'd be more tempted to run TS, but at the moment, I'm trying to stay away from exhaust upgrades that require a turn-1 rally.

MoI is too expense, IMHO, for 2x1 Darnati. Lay of the Land might help them be flankers, generate that extra die through those means, and keep the unit alive.

The discard mechanic is more a matter of picking the best two rolls. What it means is that despite rolling blue dice, the Darnati can generally pick die face that cause their average damage to be higher. So it isn't worse because you rolled more dice, but better. At least up to a point.

Rallying Starlings are some of the best. Rallying/Simultaneous orders, and then a host of other abilities would seem to work well together.

I was speaking towards the benefits of that die selection being marginally worse when adding dice.

If you have 3 dice and choose 2, that choice is a significant gain over just rolling two dice. If you take it to the extreme and say that you have a hundred dice and choose 99... that choice doesn't increase the expected output over just rolling 99 dice very much, percentage-wise. So the "roll and extra and remove your worst" mechanic is most impactful at low die counts.

23 minutes ago, kaffis said:

I was speaking towards the benefits of that die selection being marginally worse when adding dice.

If you have 3 dice and choose 2, that choice is a significant gain over just rolling two dice. If you take it to the extreme and say that you have a hundred dice and choose 99... that choice doesn't increase the expected output over just rolling 99 dice very much, percentage-wise. So the "roll and extra and remove your worst" mechanic is most impactful at low die counts.

Agreed. There's just not any way that I can think of that one could roll 100 dice and remove one for 99 total. I'm just not very sure at 3 or 4 dice that the loss in efficiency is all that significant. You're still getting a whole lot better performance on roll 3 blue and a white and remove the worst die than you are on roll 2 blue and 1 white.

The mechanic does two things:

1. Reduces variance: You really should almost always be spot-on a particular damage point. That's 3.59 for the 2x1. a hit/surge, with 2 blanks is still pretty close to the average.

2. Allows you to fish for better die faces when you've got rerolls. When your roll is good, you can always fish for the hit/surge.

Yeah, the fishing is not to be underestimated.

Also, white dice are *really good* for Darnati. It brings the expected damage (for a 3-threat unit) up to 2.67 from 2.0 for a blue, and that's not counting the mortal. There's enough competition for unexhausting cards with Rallying Starlings and Inspiration that I'm not sure Moment is the right answer, but if you can anticipate where they need to be and get Overgrowth there (Greenwatch Herald on your rally battery? Verdant Sorceress to Overgrow ALL THE TERRAIN!?), Hunter's Guile might be an intriguing offensive choice that still allows you to take and refresh Shield Wall with tokens and skill actions.

I got the chance to face Darnati last weekend. Warsong Herald would have been a fantastic upgrade had the circumstance not been 2 wide archers shooting at 3 armor knights.

Where Berserkers have the options to become plague units causing loads of panic or stupidly fast on offense, I think Darnati are going to be the super durable and super squirrelly infantry.

-Avenger: pair with Twisting Gale for an infantry block that even Ravos can’t approach confidently. With other upgrades, this unit can be so mobile as to actually have a strong chance at blocking Ravos.

-Blackthorn: Pair this with Shield Wall and you have an really durable infantry that still spits out solid damage. Add frontline Scions for a real BaneStar.

-Firstblade: I am so waiting to see this get used and just screw somebody’s charge up

-Dreamweaver: Put this on ranged

-Storm: Just not great

-Verdant: This is selectively awesome, but probably better on Derpwoods.

-Greenwatch: Eh? I guess good for a on Overgrow army.

-Twisting Gale: See Avenger

-Warsong: This upgrade pairs best with Scions and the eventual 1x3 Drive-by Ventala. Still, rerolls are good.

Personally, I want to see Jukey run the shiftiest, most frustrating to catch clown car ever:

Darnati Warriors [60] 3x3
Avenger of Latariana [5]
Wind Rune [6]
Support Aymhelin Scion [4]
Herald of the Twisting Gale [4]
Marching Starling [2]
Lay of the Land [4]
Dreamweaver Sorceress [6]
Total Unit Cost: 91

I've only gotten a chance to run a 2x1 with verdant at regionals. It was an interesting technical blocker, and came in handy more often than not.

I proxied a 3x2 with twisting gale, shield wall and avenger awhile back, and found it to be delightful, especially when backed by a dispatch/rally battery of derpwoods.

Very excited to try the 9 tray with the same build, as they can attack in any direction effectively.

Next one I'll probably put on the table is a 3x2 with raven taberds. Firstblade could couple nicely with that, however that's an upgrade with a learning curve.

On 8/15/2018 at 3:08 PM, Jukey said:

Next  one I'll probably put on the table is a 3x2 with raven tabe  rds  . Firstblade could couple nicely with that, however that's  an upgrade with a learning curve.  

I had the same thought the other day as well. Creating something that could unexpectedly swing to your opponent's flank:

Darnati Warriors [43] 3x2
Wind Rune [6]
Raven Tabards [2]
Metered March [2]
Lay of the Land [4]
Total Unit Cost: 57

This is the first time time I was tempted to include First blade. The idea being to be able to face off an opponent then activate at init 2, cancel the march just before impact if needed, shift to the side and reform to set up a sweet flank.

Adding Firstblade just makes sure they can't turn charge into you but having to give up lay of the land means that shift to the side is shallower and more dependant on green runes.

On 8/15/2018 at 2:40 PM, Church14 said:

I am so waiting to see this get used and just screw somebody’s  charge     up 

It also makes entering terrain pretty dangerous for the opposition: Firstblade will force them to exit with their back edge touching the terrain - if the Latari can set up a charge into that terrain at the same initiative from another unit then ouch.

I plan on feeding them to my demon horde.