If what you suggest where true BP, then you could NEVER play it, because you can only play it while it's the only card in your card pool. Which means it has to be in your card pool. If it's not in your card pool, it's not in your card pool and you can't play it.
Your Mind Is Known To Me - New Spoiled Card
aslum said:
If what you suggest where true BP, then you could NEVER play it, because you can only play it while it's the only card in your card pool. Which means it has to be in your card pool. If it's not in your card pool, it's not in your card pool and you can't play it.
Except no. The steps to play it would be as follows.
Begin block step:
Is it the only card in the card pool?
Yes.
Attempt to play it.
Leaves card pool.
Check.
Pass/Fail.
The check to see if its the only card in your card pool is before you actualy atempt to play it as a block.
Where in the rules does it say that a card moves to the mystical limbo zone between being announced and being played?
Also, last time I understood english "As long as" wasn't fulfilled by "only at first".
aslum said:
Where in the rules does it say that a card moves to the mystical limbo zone between being announced and being played?
Also, last time I understood english "As long as" wasn't fulfilled by "only at first".
Aslum please look at all the rulings, past and present about such.
No BP, the burden of proof is upon you ATM. I've already cited the rules. I am pretty confident I am right. If you would like to prove otherwise you'll need to cite some actual rules, or rulings... but honestly, I can't think of any rulings that involved playing cards from your card pool. And the ones on playing cards from your discard pile certainly didn't have them move somewhere else before they moved to your card pool, and they have never moved to your card pool before they were successfully played to my knowledge.
aslum said:
No BP, the burden of proof is upon you ATM. I've already cited the rules. I am pretty confident I am right. If you would like to prove otherwise you'll need to cite some actual rules, or rulings... but honestly, I can't think of any rulings that involved playing cards from your card pool. And the ones on playing cards from your discard pile certainly didn't have them move somewhere else before they moved to your card pool, and they have never moved to your card pool before they were successfully played to my knowledge.
Funny I feel no burden. I'd honestly rather not continue to speak with you. But just to amuse you.
Rulings made previously with promo rose and pull of the tides, the card, while attempting to be played is no longer in your hand but is not in your cardpool and thus is discarded.
Rulings made with nothing to loose, the card not counting as being in your hand, yet isn't in your card pool yet.
There are several more rulings I believe in the same vein that demonstrate a state in which something is not in the zone that it was in, yet is not in the card pool yet while it is being attempted to be played.
If you really want to get your view pushed I suggest you go to the rules forums and ask there if you're confident that you're right.
I don't know the answer to this, but what I suggest to look at some of the older Cervantes cards and Chun li cards that let you block with them and then reversal. Both cases are similar, so if you can find the ruling for those, then I'd imagine that it would be the same for this situation.
[begin Rules Arbiter]
Your mind is known to me: (Card text = hawt)
Throughout this conversation Aslum has been drawing attention to 302.4, where cards already in the card pool count toward progressive difficulty.
What really applied is 302.2:
302.2 To attempt to play a card, a player reveals it from their hand and makes a control check. If their check is equal to or greater than the difficulty of the card they are attempting to play the player puts that card into their card pool to the right of any other cards played this turn, then they have played that card. If the player’s check was less than the required difficulty then they must either commit foundations to make themselves successful (see 302.3) or they will fail the control check, and their attempt to play the card.
Lets look at the card text on YMiKtM, specifically the last sentence:
As long as this card is the only card in your card pool, you may play it as a block as though it were in your hand.
The golden rule of cards says that when card text overrides the rules, you go with the card. So in this case, YMiKtM doesn't say "As though it were both in your hand AND your card pool."
It doesn't count itself, it's a +3 Block.
[/End Rules Arbiter]
Now we have a ruling, but how does this tie into the grand scheme of all UFS rulings for the sake of clarity and consistancy in the past and future? I'm not questioning the ruling; instead, I would like it to have context. We have already established that YMIKTM is not added to the hand because Armored Defense and Tough Outer Shell do not interfere with that style of card playing. However, apparently YMIKTM does leave the Card Pool, or perhaps its effect discounts itself from the Card Pool. I'm a bit curious as to what YMIKTM does with itself to play itself without calculating itself into progressive difficulty. While a card more or less is isolated from the hand as its being played, the idea of a zone between the hand and Card Pool has never been fully endoursed.
So how does this ruling on YMIKTM fit into the grand scheme of things? Are we now officially "endoursing" this transitory zone of play?
Daniel is reading too much into what I write.
ctr2yellowbird said:
Now we have a ruling, but how does this tie into the grand scheme of all UFS rulings for the sake of clarity and consistancy in the past and future? I'm not questioning the ruling; instead, I would like it to have context. We have already established that YMIKTM is not added to the hand because Armored Defense and Tough Outer Shell do not interfere with that style of card playing. However, apparently YMIKTM does leave the Card Pool, or perhaps its effect discounts itself from the Card Pool. I'm a bit curious as to what YMIKTM does with itself to play itself without calculating itself into progressive difficulty. While a card more or less is isolated from the hand as its being played, the idea of a zone between the hand and Card Pool has never been fully endoursed.
So how does this ruling on YMIKTM fit into the grand scheme of things? Are we now officially "endoursing" this transitory zone of play?
This is not a "transitory zone" The card is considered to be played "from hand".
So once more, lets stop and read 302.2
302.2 To attempt to play a card, a player reveals it from their hand and makes a control check. If their check is equal to or greater than the difficulty of the card they are attempting to play the player puts that card into their card pool to the right of any other cards played this turn, then they have played that card. If the player’s check was less than the required difficulty then they must either commit foundations to make themselves successful (see 302.3) or they will fail the control check, and their attempt to play the card.
There is no "Transitory zone" you are playing YMiKtM from your hand. You have "revealed" the card being played as YMiKtM. It is still "considered" to be in your hand. Because it is considered to be in your hand, it is considered to NOT be in your card pool.
The card does not say "play this as if it were in your card pool."
The card does say "play this as though it were in your hand."
"as though" means "not in your card pool."
The zones of play as defined by the current rules:
202.1 A zone of play is an area where cards can be during a game. There are three in play zones in UFS: card pool, staging area, and momentum. There are four out of play zones in UFS: deck, hand, discard pile, and removed from game.
When you play YMiKtM as a block, it is as though it is leaving an out of play zone (Hand) and if successful will enter an in play zone (card pool).
If at any point you fail the check to play YMiKtM as a block, you are immediately subject to 302.3.1, where YMiKtM will then be discarded if you fail to make the check to block.
The only problem is that if it's in your hand, not your card pool, it's not the only card in your card pool, since it's not in your card pool at all, and it's not legal to play it, by the restriction inherent in the card itself, that it can be played as a block only as long as it is the only card in your card pool.
aslum said:
The only problem is that if it's in your hand, not your card pool, it's not the only card in your card pool, since it's not in your card pool at all, and it's not legal to play it, by the restriction inherent in the card itself, that it can be played as a block only as long as it is the only card in your card pool.
Lets walk through the steps of blocking with YMiKtM after it's already been played as an R: <One last time with feeling.>
1) Your opponent plays the attack, and has moved from the enhance step to the block step.
2) YMiKtM looks at the card pool. Is it by itself? If it is, start singing "One is the loneliest number." or "I think we're alone now" and move to step 3. If not, go back to the drawing board, and figure some other way to block.
3) Play YMiKtM as a block. When making the control check, it would be as if you were playing it from your hand. At that time it is not considered to be in the card pool.
Note the "As long as long as this is the only card in your card pool, you may play this as a block as though it were in your hand."
Once you make it past the comma (Step 2) you move onto step 3, and you don't look back.
Please note, when I provide this answer, I am doing so as an official rules arbiter, who has already vetted this answer with both other rules arbiters and Mr. Hata himself.
If you wish to try to overturn this ruling or you feel it's in error, take it to Mr. Bromen. His email address is:
[email protected]
Please stop trying to confuse players and quibble over something that's very straight forward.
I see how this works with what has already been established prior to YMIKTM. Of particular importance is:
Antigoth said:
You have "revealed" the card being played as YMiKtM. It is still "considered" to be in your hand. Because it is considered to be in your hand, it is considered to NOT be in your card pool.
and
Antigoth said:
3) Play YMiKtM as a block. When making the control check, it would be as if you were playing it from your hand. At that time it is not considered to be in the card pool.
When playing YMIKTM with its effect, it does leave the Card Pool, but doesn't enter the owner's hand. At least, that's the literal interpretation of "as though it were in your hand." The other, figurative interpretation is that YMIKTM doesn't leave the Card Pool, but that it can't possibly view itself as in the Card Pool while playing itself (I think that's a space-time paradox, lol). Therefore, YMIKTM defaults to "considering" that it is not yet in the Card Pool, thus its effect removes itself from the calculation of Progressive Difficulty. Either way, I see the effect working.
The problem that Aslum and I have is that the place where a card physically exists when its being played, perhaps during a "before a control check to play is a card is made" window, hasn't really been defined outside of a "limbo state," so, when this undefined area is used or referred to by an effect, we as players and non-arbiter rules legalists have no where to imagine the card when we apply said effect to a scenario. Now if I'm told that the "limbo state" doesn't even exist without being told what should substitute it in my mind, well then us "player legalists" have nothing (concrete) to work with at all. However, I do know that something must exist that is representative of a "limbo state/zone/area" because, as I was told a long time ago, Divine Champion can't discard a card that a player is attempting to play (from their hand), and I just know that ruling isn't going to be reversed. All of that smoke was just to expound that we are neither "quibbling" nor "trying to confuse other players" because those don't fully understand something yet also refuse to believe that it exists mystically want real answers. I too have talked to James about this when I was designing my team's asset, so I also know his sentiments on this "trigger".
In any event, I can probably quit this thread because I've updated a non sequitur area in "my rules codex." (for the irrelevent and proverbial 64 experience points, of course)
ctr2yellowbird said:
Divine Champion can't discard a card that a player is attempting to play (from their hand), and I just know that ruling isn't going to be reversed.
::Scratches head::
Please keep in mind we are in the midst of looking at the game rules. This may be dealt with.
TLDR version: I'm not trying to challenge or confuse the issue, I am trying to understand it.
Yeah, I definitely wasn't trying to confuse the issue, rather clarify it, if nothing else in my own mind. I purposely hadn't moved this to the rules Q&A forum, because it is a complicated situation, and I figured it would be okay to discuss it in the General Discussion forum. I'm not so sure that I am right that I want to go over your heads to Paul. Rather I'd prefer to continue to discuss it with you guys in a rational matter. If discussing it here really isn't an option I suppose I will have to discuss it with Paul, but again I am more hopeful that either I can make you understand, or you can make me understand.
My major problem with this ruling is that the card says "play it as though it were in your hand" not "add it to your hand and play it" which to my understanding is how it's being suggested it should be played. Why does it leave the card pool in step 3? I would think that you "reveal it from your card pool"... it's still in your card pool there. I just can't wrap my head around the WHY of this ruling, and I'd really like to.
I guess what it comes down to is, is there really a "Limbo zone" that cards what are being attempted to be played move to between announcement and determination of success or failure? If there is, and it'd going to be codified into the next set of rules, then I guess this makes sense.
Edit: Does this mean if I was playing an attack from discard pile, and M.Bison made me pick a random card from my hand the attack that was being played "as though it were in my hand" is added to my hand, and stays there if M.Bison picks a different legal card for me to play?
aslum said:
Edit: Does this mean if I was playing an attack from discard pile, and M.Bison made me pick a random card from my hand the attack that was being played "as though it were in my hand" is added to my hand, and stays there if M.Bison picks a different legal card for me to play?
Exactly... We wanted to meld M. Bison's trigger and potential for turn-ending into our one of our asset's abilities, but that didn't happen.
I believe that Antigoth was sort of making two main points. The first point is that the act playing any card from anywhere allows follows exactly the same procedures. Either that or cards that are "played from/as though they were in your hand" always follow the same procedures. For reference, Antigoth gives the appropriate outline for these procedures in his explanations. The second main point is that, because YMIKTM says "as though it were in your hand," YMIKTM will consider itself as being played from the hand when using its ability. Whether or not YMIKTM is actually being played from your hand is irrelevant; instead, all aspects of the card must be considered as though it were played from the hand when it is played using its continuous effect. Therefore, YMIKTM cannot logically exist in your Card Pool when you are playing it from your hand, and it removes that physical truth when it plays itself.
To specifically address Aslum's concerns, YMIKTM goes through the motions of playing a card as though it were in the player's hand, which carries over to some logical (i.e., "considered" explanation) or physical (i.e., place in "limbo state") extent.
For the moment, I believe that the "limbo state" exists in an uncodified, "unsupported," and a taboo capacity. Really, it's a taboo. I believe that FFG ultimately intends to deal with this "limbo state" officially, but they are not nearly at that point on their work with the new TR. Because FFG hasn't decided on a clause to codify, they opt to avoid this "limbo state" in the event that they say something that may later be retracted/reversed when it is codified. There's lots of speculation in that, but I have seen a trend of activity to support my ideas at the very least. Now, speculation=quibbling & confusion, but those are my thoughts.
ctr2yellowbird said:
I believe that Antigoth was sort of making two main points. The first point is that the act playing any card from anywhere allows follows exactly the same procedures. Either that or cards that are "played from/as though they were in your hand" always follow the same procedures. For reference, Antigoth gives the appropriate outline for these procedures in his explanations. The second main point is that, because YMIKTM says "as though it were in your hand," YMIKTM will consider itself as being played from the hand when using its ability. Whether or not YMIKTM is actually being played from your hand is irrelevant; instead, all aspects of the card must be considered as though it were played from the hand when it is played using its continuous effect. Therefore, YMIKTM cannot logically exist in your Card Pool when you are playing it from your hand, and it removes that physical truth when it plays itself.
You've hit the nail on the head.
YMiKtM physically exists in the card pool. It doesn't leave there.
It just doesn't believe that it's in the card pool.
So you treat it as if you were playing it from your hand for the purposes of progressive difficulty.
Sorry guys - no nebulous in between limbo / purgatory.
Sorry to beat this dead horse a little more, but that last bit made me think of something, Brian.
YMiKtM is thus unaffected by The Ruler of the Shadows, correct? Because it's IN the card pool, but when attempting to play as though in hand, it "isn't" (words don't explain that bit well enough, but I understand why it works the way it does), and thus has not been "removed" from said card pool...right?
Antigoth said:
YMiKtM physically exists in the card pool. It doesn't leave there.
It just doesn't believe that it's in the card pool.
So you treat it as if you were playing it from your hand for the purposes of progressive difficulty.
Sorry guys - no nebulous in between limbo / purgatory.
But but but but... if it's not in your hand, or your card pool... where is it? This is what I'm having trouble wrapping my head around. If it's not in either place it has to be somewhere else, and it's certainly not in your discard, deck, RFG or momentum.
When you play a card from your discard it doesn't physically leave your discard right?
If you only have one card left in your deck to make the check to play it, when you make that check, you cycle your deck, and it gets shuffled into your deck, no longer being in your momentum it's no longer able to be played.
You can't have the limbo zone but pretend there is no limbo zone.
The card has to be somewhere.
If it's in your card pool it should add to progressive difficulty. Because that's what cards in your card pool do.
Also, does this mean progressive difficulty don't apply to Blossom Slicer, White Lillies, Bullet Cutter and the like then? Note that even though I am having trouble understanding how this works doesn't mean I don't want it to. I just need to be able to explain it to others.
MegaGeese said:
Sorry to beat this dead horse a little more, but that last bit made me think of something, Brian.
YMiKtM is thus unaffected by The Ruler of the Shadows, correct? Because it's IN the card pool, but when attempting to play as though in hand, it "isn't" (words don't explain that bit well enough, but I understand why it works the way it does), and thus has not been "removed" from said card pool...right?
Correct.
aslum said:
Antigoth said:
YMiKtM physically exists in the card pool. It doesn't leave there.
It just doesn't believe that it's in the card pool.
So you treat it as if you were playing it from your hand for the purposes of progressive difficulty.
Sorry guys - no nebulous in between limbo / purgatory.
But but but but... if it's not in your hand, or your card pool... where is it? This is what I'm having trouble wrapping my head around. If it's not in either place it has to be somewhere else, and it's certainly not in your discard, deck, RFG or momentum.
When you play a card from your discard it doesn't physically leave your discard right?
If you only have one card left in your deck to make the check to play it, when you make that check, you cycle your deck, and it gets shuffled into your deck, no longer being in your momentum it's no longer able to be played.
You can't have the limbo zone but pretend there is no limbo zone.
The card has to be somewhere.
If it's in your card pool it should add to progressive difficulty. Because that's what cards in your card pool do.
Also, does this mean progressive difficulty don't apply to Blossom Slicer, White Lillies, Bullet Cutter and the like then? Note that even though I am having trouble understanding how this works doesn't mean I don't want it to. I just need to be able to explain it to others.
BUT BUT BUT -- The Card IS in your card pool.
It does not leave the card pool. I haven't said it has left the card pool.
It just plays make believe, and pretends it has left the card pool.
Golden Rule of cards - when a card's text disagrees with the game rules, the card text takes precedence over game rules. That's what's happening here.
No, that line currently does not exist in the Tournament Rules. It will exist in the 2.0 version.
Blossom Slicer says you may play it as a reversal. <PERIOD> There is no "as if from hand" card text. It adds to itself for progressive difficulty. No change there.
White Lilies - See Blossom Slicer.
Bullet Cutter - See White Lilies and Blossom Slicer.
None of those three cards have the same card text as YMiKtM
So... for those following along at home:
- YMiKtM lives in your card pool.
- It thinks it's in your hand.
Antigoth said:
MegaGeese said:
Sorry to beat this dead horse a little more, but that last bit made me think of something, Brian.
YMiKtM is thus unaffected by The Ruler of the Shadows, correct? Because it's IN the card pool, but when attempting to play as though in hand, it "isn't" (words don't explain that bit well enough, but I understand why it works the way it does), and thus has not been "removed" from said card pool...right?
Correct.
I really don't want this dead horseness thread either (sorry...), but my new question is most relevant in here. The Ruler of the Shadows does not interfere with YMIKTM's trigger and effect, but, if you fail to block with YMIKTM, then I understand that TRotS would prevent you from moving it from your Card Pool to your Discard Pile. Right? Or would YMIKTM still follow the "as though it were in your hand" procedures and go to your Discard Pile like every other card that a player fails to play? I guess it would be pertinent to state when the "as though it were in your hand" part expires, or how YMIKTM may be an exception in some other capacity.
I screwed up the post quote a bit, but that doesn't matter.
Maybe it's just been too long since I read 1984 but I still can't see how it can be in your card pool and not in your card pool at the same time.
And though the text isn't identical, it's functionally identical to those other cards. Where do you play attacks from? Your hand. Where do you play reversals from? Your hand. Unless of course a card golden rules it so that they can be played from somewhere else, but they're still played as though they were played from your hand, because that's the only formula we have for playing cards. *sigh* I'm just failing to grok how a card can be and not be in the same place at the same time. As much as I hate the idea of a limbo zone, at least it makes sense, it's a location. Call it the "Being Played Zone" and codify it in the rules and it could actually be a benefit. I'm sorry I can't just accept this on faith... I feel really bad going on and on about it... but it still doesn't make sense to me.
aslum said:
Maybe it's just been too long since I read 1984 but I still can't see how it can be in your card pool and not in your card pool at the same time.
I'm glad to have spurred such a lengthy debate, as it lets me know that my question was a relevant one. However I fail to see where the confusion is. Antigoth has clearly said this, multiple times, and in multiple ways. The card does NOT leave the card pool. There is no "limbo" zone. You seem to be confusing yourself with the need for said zone. Erase this phantom zone from your mind. The card is simply IN the card pool during play, and for the purposes of progressive difficulty and other card effects ONLY, it is CONSIDERED to be in your hand.
Xcalibur7369 said:
aslum said:
Maybe it's just been too long since I read 1984 but I still can't see how it can be in your card pool and not in your card pool at the same time.
I'm glad to have spurred such a lengthy debate, as it lets me know that my question was a relevant one. However I fail to see where the confusion is. Antigoth has clearly said this, multiple times, and in multiple ways. The card does NOT leave the card pool. There is no "limbo" zone. You seem to be confusing yourself with the need for said zone. Erase this phantom zone from your mind. The card is simply IN the card pool during play, and for the purposes of progressive difficulty and other card effects ONLY, it is CONSIDERED to be in your hand.
The problem is, as far as I understand the rules, if it's in your card pool it affects progressive difficulty. I can't imagine any way it could be in your card pool, and not affect PD other then an effect that says it doesn't.