14 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I mentioned that jousting + Ace would have a small bid in the OP.

Correct. And I agree with your 0-2 bid estimate for support Aces, and huge bid for something like dual Ace squad.

I just think that lists with dual or centerpiece Aces will be just a tiny bit of the meta, and completely different archetypes will be dominating.

Therefore bids will be very small on average and not really that important.

Also I have been flying PS 8 Imperial Aces in 1.0 for the past year to some pretty good success, and I think high INI or bids are generally quite overrated. If I can get more arcs, or better chassis, I’ll take it over bid or INI every time.

But I understand that these are two distinct school of thought in X wing, so some other players might feel more comfortable with having only two Aces, but being guaranteed to move last.

26 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

Correct. And I agree with your 0-2 bid estimate for support Aces, and huge bid for something like dual Ace squad.

I just think that lists with dual or centerpiece Aces will be just a tiny bit of the meta, and completely different archetypes will be dominating.

Therefore bids will be very small on average and not really important.

You might be right, I hope you are. I just haven't seen anything that convinces me that will be the case. There's been expanded access to pre-movement repositioning on a number of ships, and these ships strongly want to move last whenever possible.

This is coming from someone who is wholly comfortable with moving first in a wide variety of situations.

13 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Imperials never had access to triple PS9 ace due to pricing issues (at least not where one of the aces was not heavily compromised). All triple ace squad listed in 1.0 had at least someone at PS8 or lower.

Vader+ATC+SD

Soontir+ptl+AT+SD

Tur Phinnir+VI+AT+SD

98ish points three ps9 aces each with 2+ actions a turn

5 hours ago, heychadwick said:

Is the Init race still there? I feel like lesser Init pilots will be able to reposition to still get into a decent spot. Have enough ships to spread out and you should still get a shot. No token stacking means your shots can be effective. Is high Init really as important as it used to be?

I really want to say it is b/c it's an arcdodge or die for imp aces so if if you can't arcdodge... Well why ace?

forgot to add one to the pile



needing FOCUS instead of a TL is a massive boon to any lower initiative ship that can take Barrage rockets, greatly alleviating the need for a bid

also, my experience with the Moldy Crow suggests that it's very difficult for an ace to get out of both arcs (ala good ol 1st edition Shadowcaster). Sure, two dice for the Moldy isn't much, but considering you can smack aces with a Mux or Palob ability pretty easily...

Might also leave room open to experiment with ordnance + turret ships, which as ICT + Proton "Dutch" (with Cracken action support to bypass lower I target lock) and barrage rockets + ict aggressors covering a massive area that makes it ridiculously difficult for aces to avoid

and thanks to the end of the palp ace era of stupid defenses, those attacks are actually something to worry about rather than being a complete joke

Currently, far less than impressed by higher Initiative ships and/or bids. Initial thoughts are 2nd edition balanced them out incredibly well, and that it's given lower Initiative ships a very fair chance at fighting back

I agree with @ficklegreendice and am hopeful we'll see more balance between aces and lower Initiative pilots, including generics. I think cheaper aces like Fel will enhance a list. But I'm not sure relying so heavily on them will be a good idea when token stacking is more difficult and a potential rise in the effectiveness of generics, combined with that reduction in defensive token stacking, means there will be fewer safe places for them and more chance of them taking damage when they do get shot. Vader, for example, has ridiculous levels of mobility and potential for offensive token stacking but still has a problem if he's caught in arc, which may still be easier than it currently is. In that scenario is a "cheap" Vader possibly worth more than a fully loaded one? If I can save 20 points on Vader by just taking a FCS as my only upgrade that translates to very nearly another ship (probably actually one more if you were taking a bid). Or it allows you to bump your other ships up to better generics or low Initiative named pilots.

What's fascinating here is I'm not sure there's a right answer. If true, that's great for the game, because it enables multiple styles of squad.

I'll go further - right now high Initiative aces are really going to struggle against the fact that you can field very strong 5-7 ship squads quite happily in all the factions.

10 hours ago, mad mandolorian said:

Vader+ATC+SD

Soontir+ptl+AT+SD

Tur Phinnir+VI+AT+SD

98ish points three ps9 aces each with 2+ actions a turn

I really want to say it is b/c it's an arcdodge or die for imp aces so if if you can't arcdodge... Well why ace?

That's what I'm saying, though. I don't think a list of just Imp Aces will be as viable in 2.0. Generics can spread out in a loose group to ensure they get shots at a bunch of arc dodgers. They won't be able to avoid all the shots. They won't be as good at token stacking and I see them dying. This will probably lead to people saying that Imperials are a terrible faction and not worth playing. Of course, if all you want is Triple Aces then maybe it's not the faction for you. Imps are more about more ships in 2.0. I like that.

I think having an arc dodger or two in a list of other things is a viable strategy, but nothing but arc dodgers might not be the best. FFG has stated that having just a few elites is more a First Order thing. I can see that as they have more shields and tech and such. Imperials should have more ships than just elite aces. Throw in a bunch of Tie Fighters and an Ace. Or....a Tie Bomber, a few Ties, and an Ace. That can work. Have something to draw the attention away from the Ace and then flank them. That will be the trick. The ole' Hammer and Anvil strategy. I used it with Vader to devastating affect back in Wave 1.

3 hours ago, SOTL said:

I'll go further - right now high Initiative aces are really going to struggle against the fact that you can field very strong 5-7 ship squads quite happily in all the factions.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

That's what I'm saying, though. I don't think a list of just Imp Aces will be as viable in 2.0. Generics can spread out in a loose group to ensure they get shots at a bunch of arc dodgers. They won't be able to avoid all the shots. They won't be as good at token stacking and I see them dying. This will probably lead to people saying that Imperials are a terrible faction and not worth playing. Of course, if all you want is Triple Aces then maybe it's not the faction for you. Imps are more about more ships in 2.0. I like that.

I think having an arc dodger or two in a list of other things is a viable strategy, but nothing but arc dodgers might not be the best. FFG has stated that having just a few elites is more a First Order thing. I can see that as they have more shields and tech and such. Imperials should have more ships than just elite aces. Throw in a bunch of Tie Fighters and an Ace. Or....a Tie Bomber, a few Ties, and an Ace. That can work. Have something to draw the attention away from the Ace and then flank them. That will be the trick. The ole' Hammer and Anvil strategy. I used it with Vader to devastating affect back in Wave 1.

There are powerful aces that can do similar things to 1.0 aces, or more so. They typically cost a lot of points, but are sometimes even better than 1.0 versions in some ways. There is counterplay, sometimes more counterplay due to more appropriate costs.

I don't expect aces to dominate the way they did in 1.0, but I fully expect them to compete for their points, and wouldn't be surprised to see an an early points increase for Advanced Sensors or Supernatural Reflexes. This is coming from a play group that started proxying 2.0 about a month ago, with people that are comfortable with running low PS stuff as well as aces.

Just now, Biophysical said:

I don't expect aces to dominate the way they did in 1.0, but I fully expect them to compete for their points, and wouldn't be surprised to see an an early points increase for Advanced Sensors or Supernatural Reflexes. This is coming from a play group that started proxying 2.0 about a month ago, with people that are comfortable with running low PS stuff as well as aces.

I'll take that advice on board, thanks. I've not started 2.0 yet (this Friday) but the feedback from groups I trust has been the opposite - we won't know until it's all shaken out in the wash, I guess.

Who knows when we're ever going to be allowed to play with more than just Wave 1 stuff in tournaments anyway?

2 minutes ago, SOTL said:

I'll take that advice on board, thanks. I've not started 2.0 yet (this Friday) but the feedback from groups I trust has been the opposite - we won't know until it's all shaken out in the wash, I guess.

Who knows when we're ever going to be allowed to play with more than just Wave 1 stuff in tournaments anyway?

Wave 1 vs open stuff will definitely make things different.

1 hour ago, SOTL said:

Who knows when we're ever going to be allowed to play with more than just Wave 1 stuff in tournaments anyway?

This is the big question. From a wave 1 perspective, Supernatural Vader definitely wants the bid, as does Fenn. Wedge, Scum Han and the I5's...?...probably less so.

30 minutes ago, gennataos said:

This is the big question. From a wave 1 perspective, Supernatural Vader definitely wants the bid, as does Fenn. Wedge, Scum Han and the I5's...?...probably less so.

Maybe Luke wants a bid, but it's reasonably likely that if you want to counter Luke, you take an I6 instead, as most wave 1 available I5s principally just have a cost advantage over the I6s, not an ability advantage (Maarek vs Inquisitor, for example).

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Maybe Luke wants a bid, but it's reasonably likely that if you want to counter Luke, you take an I6 instead, as most wave 1 available I5s principally just have a cost advantage over the I6s, not an ability advantage (Maarek vs Inquisitor, for example).

I'd think Supernatural Luke wants it, but not as much as Vader since Luke can tank I5 shots better than Vader can tank I6 shots.

Just ran against Soontir + Whisper + Sai last night

My list capped at I 4, running Deathrain + Jonus + two gamma vets

It was rough going against a good player that ruined my formation using obstacles and superior manueverability, but my god the bombers and rock SOLID. With enough arcs and some area denial from Deathrain, they managed to seal the deal

Ended up losing Deathrain, taking half damage on Jonus and a vet, and proton bombing my other vet for two damage (got Soontir, though!). Everyone left was down to one charge, but they were victorious!

It's so **** refreshing to not autolose against aces moving after you

point is, I don't think we'll need a bid at all, unless you're running a list that's nothing but arc-dodgers. IF you run an ace + mini-swarm, you got your mini-swarm to back you up

EDIT: btw, best part of 2nd edition?

Bombers. White. Two. Turns

Hera going from a 7 to a 5 is about the only positive thing the Ghost got in the new edition so 5s are definitely better as almost aces.