When you want to knockdown someone without the Knockdown Quality, do you allow it? Do you tack on a surcharge of an extra Advantage? Was just wondering. This also applies to other things like Concussive and the like. Not just for Knockdown.

I have been allowing it but I think that also means that players will not want to work on getting weapons with those Qualities anymore.

There's no way I'd allow Concussive, way too powerful.

Brawl by default has the Knockdown effect. Tacking it on to maybe bludgeon weapons might be ok.

32 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

There's no way I'd allow Concussive, way too powerful.

Brawl by default has the Knockdown effect. Tacking it on to maybe bludgeon weapons might be ok. 

Sorry, I was not being clear. I used Concussive as an example. Also, I was talking about what if the weapon DID NOT have Knockdown on it. Not "adding it onto the weapon."

Like, say someone grabs a staff and wants to use it to pin someone? This means that they would be doing an Ensnare but the staff does not have Ensnare. So, do you just let them use Entangle but then make it cost the same? Or else they grab an axe and use the flat of it to slap upside someone's head which would be Disorient but the axe itself does not have Disorient. These situations are what I am talking about.

If the item doesn't have the quality I don't allow a weapon effect to be triggered. It's a balance issue, as you cite it also tends to dampen a PCs tendency to use somethimg else, it removes an avenue for you to reward players with an arcane/master crafted weapon thst can do some effect not typically associated with that style of weapon, and finally there are Talents that become cheapened or eve useless.

My guess is, that in situations such as these the narrative qualities of the game are your friend. The character has a staff and wants to pin an opponent (an Ensnare effect, if you will), use Brawl. Seriously, read the description on page 67, "pin, grapple, or hold someone". Then describe it as if the character uses elbows and knees to block an opponent, and finally push the staff up to the throat of the enemy. One combat check is not necessarily just one attack. A very succesful Brawl attack could be described as: "You hack left and right with your staff, forcing the opponent on the defensive. With a single swipe from the tip of the staff you break through his last defenses, and push him into the wall behind him, your staff and forearm shoved under his throat, immobilizing him."

And all the player did, was to roll a terrific Brawl check, and feel great about a wonderful description of how he managed to pin (Ensnare?) his foe.

For some qualities, like Knockdown or Immobolize, I'd allow it to be the result of a non-damaging check. If your weapon doesn't have the Knockdown quality, you can still use it to knock them down, but that is the goal of the check, not damage. If you succeed, you knock them down. No damage, no Critical Injury. Just Knockdown.

But as @2P51 said, I wouldn't allow Concussive to be gained in this fashion: it is way too powerful of a Quality to allow on non-Concussive items.

I would not allow triggering qualities without qualities on every combat check.

I would consider applying the effects (knocked prone, disoriented, immobilized, staggered, etc.) depending on the circumstances... which the game already allows anyway in one form or another.