3 hours ago, Derrault said:

It’s not a wager if you can’t get the wager plus in return plus additional value. Paying money for a service or good of unknown quality is not the same as making a wager whereby one stands to lose all or win tokens/cash in addition to the original bet.

Emphasis on bet. You are not engaging in betting at all by purchasing a good or service, even though there are a ridiculous number of examples where the outcome is in question (ie haircuts, any home remodeling project, investment in a business, all types of banking and loans, ordering a book before it is published, etc.)

Given the obvious application of handicapping mechanics, I can’t see a scenario where it would ever make sense to purchase another persons deck purely on the theory it was a “stronger” deck. Caveat emptor, winning at key forge is clearly more about making good decisions than it is about deck composition. Metaphorically speakin, the game is high on piloting skill and low on aircraft quality.

We will see if it will be possible to sell decks for more than the buying price, but I highly doubt that it won't be possible given the difference in powerlevel we have seen in decks. We don't know what and how handicapping mechanics will be employed and Garfield and FFG OP are sending pretty different signals, so I think time will tell. But the powerlevel (aircraft quality) of a deck like Doomwind compared to the average we have seen is staggering and the skill level difference has to be massive to make up for that disadvantage (if we don't factor in handicapping).

But even in the highly unlikely case that it won't be possible to gain value by selling the deck, we can still make a case for Keyforge being gambling. The value you get out of gambling doesn't have to be a monetary value. On this ground Belgium for example determined that FIFA18 and Overwatch use of lootboxes fall under their gambling laws, despite the inability of the player to gain any monetary value.

Is buying an apple at the grocery store gambling? It might not taste as good as another apple that cost$ the same.

8 hours ago, Ignithas said:

We will see if it will be possible to sell decks for more than the buying price, but I highly doubt that it won't be possible given the difference in powerlevel we have seen in decks. We don't know what and how handicapping mechanics will be employed and Garfield and FFG OP are sending pretty different signals, so I think time will tell. But the powerlevel (aircraft quality) of a deck like Doomwind compared to the average we have seen is staggering and the skill level difference has to be massive to make up for that disadvantage (if we don't factor in handicapping).

But even in the highly unlikely case that it won't be possible to gain value by selling the deck, we can still make a case for Keyforge being gambling. The value you get out of gambling doesn't have to be a monetary value. On this ground Belgium for example determined that FIFA18 and Overwatch use of lootboxes fall under their gambling laws, despite the inability of the player to gain any monetary value.

I 100% agree that decks will sell above MSRP. They won’t even have to be OP, just have certain house or card combinations such as Horsemen.

As far as Doomwind’s power level I can only assume we have a different definition of staggering. Would you please elaborate on what makes Doomwind so much better than every other deck.

12 hours ago, Ignithas said:

We will see if it will be possible to sell decks for more than the buying price, but I highly doubt that it won't be possible given the difference in powerlevel we have seen in decks. We don't know what and how handicapping mechanics will be employed and Garfield and FFG OP are sending pretty different signals, so I think time will tell. But the powerlevel (aircraft quality) of a deck like Doomwind compared to the average we have seen is staggering and the skill level difference has to be massive to make up for that disadvantage (if we don't factor in handicapping).

But even in the highly unlikely case that it won't be possible to gain value by selling the deck, we can still make a case for Keyforge being gambling. The value you get out of gambling doesn't have to be a monetary value. On this ground Belgium for example determined that FIFA18 and Overwatch use of lootboxes fall under their gambling laws, despite the inability of the player to gain any monetary value.

Not to be too flippant, but who cares that one deck may be considered stronger than another when we have the given that no decks repeat? There won’t be 10 people playing that deck in any tournament, nor any people for that matter in all but one tournament at any given time assuming the worst case scenario wherein a tournament allows opened decks.

In point of fact, it does. “Play games of chance for money” is the primary definition of the word.

As for the appeal to authority fallacy, Belgium is free to make any laws it pleases, that doesn’t make them any less wrong about it.

14 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Is buying an apple at the grocery store gambling? It might not taste as good as another apple that cost$ the same.

If you can see the apple when you buy it, can't resell the apple for profit and if those apples won't be used in tournaments to win monetary value, then no.

14 hours ago, Starbane said:

I 100% agree that decks will sell above MSRP. They won’t  even have to be OP, just have  certain house or card combinations such as Horsemen.

As far as Doomwind’s power  level  I can only assume  we have a different  definition of staggering  . Would you please elaborate on what makes Doomwind so much better than every other deck.

Because Doomwind can generate a lot of aember without board presence and has very strong c.ards to disrupt your oponent's aember gain and board Position. This makes it extremly difficult to trade favourably with it.

10 hours ago, Derrault said:

Not to be too flippant, but who cares that one deck may be considered stronger than another when we have the given that no decks repeat? There won’t be 10 people playing that deck in any tournament, nor any people for that matter in all but one tournament at any given time assuming the worst case scenario wherein a tournament allows opened decks.

In point of fact, it does. “Play games of chance for money” is the primary definition of the word.

As for the appeal to authority fallacy, Belgium is free to make any laws it pleases, that doesn’t make them any less wrong about it.

I don't consider open decks a serious format and therefore irrelevant for competitive play.

I personally don't understand what the problem with 10 People playing a deck, if there are other options that grant you the same win%. If we don't take handicapps in acount (which no one knows how to implement them fairly), Keyforge is pretty high on the P2W model for a CCG. If you have a group of people that are buying a lot of Keyforge decks (or strong ones from other Players), chances aren't small that the metagame looks like if most players decide to take their starter deck that was pimped with some boosters to a tournament with different meta decks.

" Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods." Wikipedia. I would recommend you inform yourself about the matter at hand, before you write things that are either very unlikely or simply wrong.

48 minutes ago, Ignithas said:

Because Doomwind can generate a lot of aember without board presence and has very strong c.ards to disrupt your oponent's aember gain and board Position. This makes it extremly difficult to trade favourably with it.

I don’t play on TTS so I haven’t played Doomwind. I have seen the deck and it does seem to be strong, but I wouldn’t worry about bringing a deck that can beat it.

We have 8 decks in our play group (soon to be 9, yippee!) and a couple seemed stronger than the others. However, most of the time when we swap decks the player with the seemingly weaker deck still wins.

We are in the infancy of KeyForge, actually we aren’t even there yet as it hasn’t been released. It doesn’t play like the other games my group is used to. It seems to me that the players that are picking up the game more quickly (and playing more games) are winning with whatever deck they play against those that haven’t played as much or adapted yet.

There is no doubt the decks will very in strength. Whether the most important key to success is player skill, deck strength, or draw variance, is far from determined at this point in time. If we are going to speculate, I would guess it is going to be player skill or variance followed by deck strength in last place.

Sorry Ig's, of you're going to cite Wikipedia and stamp an extremely broad definition of gamling to everything, I'm just going to stop at agree to disagree and move on. Maybe I'll feel like going down this rabbit hole another time.