Just now, Darth Meanie said:

And it would be even easier if the PDF was a single-source reference.

But since I already have my cards out anyway, why duplicate the information?

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

Why are you wasting ink printing out an electronic document, anyways??

Because most of the time, I don't build my list until I get to game night, and paper printouts are much easier to read than a phone screen.

Also, being perfectly honest, I find it much faster to find information on printouts than digitally, if the information is well-organized. (For instance, I tend to be able to lookup Bible verses in a physical text FAR faster than with an app.)

9 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

But since I already have my cards out anyway, why duplicate the information?

Because most of the time, I don't build my list until I get to game night, and paper printouts are much easier to read than a phone screen.

Also, being perfectly honest, I find it much faster to find information on printouts than digitally, if the information is well-organized. (For instance, I tend to be able to lookup Bible verses in a physical text FAR faster than with an app.)

I agree. I find Paper and Physical products are simply superior to digital products. Whether it be Bibles, Books or Board Games. There's something about having a physical copy that makes it easier to understand and enriches the experience.

8 minutes ago, joshthesheep said:

I agree. I find Paper and Physical products are simply superior to digital products. Whether it be Bibles, Books or Board Games. There's something about having a physical copy that makes it easier to understand and enriches the experience.

To clarify, a lot of it has to do with the orderliness. For reference material that has been sorted and ordered somehow, then printed material is great. For unordered text (e.g. wanting to find a specific passage in a novel), it's usually easier to use an electronic search.

(Though I still prefer a physical copy for just reading.)

10 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

But since I already have my cards out anyway, why duplicate the information?

Because most of the time, I don't build my list until I get to game night, and paper printouts are much easier to read than a phone screen .

Also, being perfectly honest, I find it much faster to find information on printouts than digitally , if the information is well-organized. (For instance, I tend to be able to lookup Bible verses in a physical text FAR faster than with an app.)

Egads, the way I read that makes me wonder why you wouldn't want the best PDF possible. Ya know, one with all the info in it. Use the PDF for listbuilding, dig out the cards when it's time to play.

One resource only required at any given moment.

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

Egads, the way I read that makes me wonder why you wouldn't want the best PDF possible. Ya know, one with all the info in it. Use the PDF for listbuilding, dig out the cards when it's time to play.

One resource only required at any given moment.

Because as I've said repeatedly, I already have the cards. If I want everything together, I use the app. If I want to use the physical printout, I also have the cards and therefore save ink. I don't understand why this concept is so difficult to grasp.

Fortunately, a "Verbose/Non-verbose" print option would be pretty simple to implement, so hopefully both sides can have their way.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

I have all the info, in 2 different places. Like a dictionary split in 2. A single resource that is not complete is, at best annoying, and at worst, useless.

I really think you need to take a step back and take a breath on this, Meanie.

First, people have already been successfully using the pdf to make lists, meaning your “at worse” senario is already defunct.

Second, 1E was already like this with having cards to tell you ship abilities and slots on top of a rule book to tell you how to play. I have yet to see a miniatures game where some kind of cross referencing wasn’t around. The closest was the now defunct MageKnight. It had all stats on a dial that could be turned to indicate damage . But even then, you still needed a reference to tell you what the different color abilities do as well as the base rules. The same basic mechanics are used in the game Heroclix, but they added character cards to go with the models to add more abilities and special traits, and what contact I have with that community seem to indicate this was seen as a good move.

I understand that you don’t like the pdf’s current form, but hardly grounds to imply that it is useless, or that it’s some sort of anomaly. You can advocate for a pdf you want without making stuff up about the current version.

2 hours ago, evcameron said:

Don't worry guys. Here is a screenshot from the app, it has card text in it.

Thank god, I was totally canceling my preorder if this wasn’t true. App squad builders are to make building easier. If I had to sift through all the cards what is the point of the app at all besides being a cost counter. Thank you evcameron.

11 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I really think you need to take a step back and take a breath on this, Meanie.

True. I am only flummoxed that JJ48 has a different opinion than mine. Probably the only middle ground is this:

12 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Fortunately, a "Verbose/Non-verbose" print option would be pretty simple to implement, so hopefully both sides can have their way.

47 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

But since I already have my cards out anyway , why duplicate the information?

Because most of the time, I don't build my list until I get to game night, and paper printouts are much easier to read than a phone screen.

Lastly, I just realized that JJ48 and I have a completely different approach to listbuilding.

I listbuild well in advance of play. I often listbuild just to listbuild--some of them I don't ever get around to playing cuz I change my mind.

Thus, my cards are not to be found when I listbuild. I don't want to have to go get them, and shuffle thru them to get half the info. I just want a single-source document (or app) that I grab to listbuild without then playing or having my components for play around.

14 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Lastly, I just realized that JJ48 and I have a completely different approach to listbuilding.

I listbuild well in advance of play. I often listbuild just to listbuild--some of them I don't ever get around to playing cuz I change my mind.

Thus, my cards are not to be found when I listbuild. I don't want to have to go get them, and shuffle thru them to get half the info. I just want a single-source document (or app) that I grab to listbuild without then playing or having my components for play around.

That's pretty much what I do as well. To be clear, I will be doing most if not all of my list creating with the app because it allows me to act on ideas I have, no matter where I am. But I've used methods like the PDF before and can do it again, if the need arises.

2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

But I've used methods like the PDF before and can do it again, if the need arises.

I think most of us can do it, I think an overwhelming majority don’t want to do it. ?

10 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Well... Not Armada...

I would so try it if it wasn't so pricy.

4 minutes ago, Sir Orrin said:

I would so try it if it wasn't so pricy.

That's kind of exactly the problem, too.

What does Armada have... five waves? To X-Wing's how many?

11 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

I think most of us can do it, I think an overwhelming majority don’t want to do it. ?

And that’s perfectly fine. But not liking an option doesn’t mean it can’t fulfill the duty it was made to do.

39 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

That's pretty much what I do as well. To be clear, I will be doing most if not all of my list creating with the app because it allows me to act on ideas I have, no matter where I am. But I've used methods like the PDF before and can do it again, if the need arises.

Yeah - I listbuild when I'm at lunch at work, when I'm bored at the bus stop waiting for my kids to show up, basically anytime I'm free and bored and waiting around. The % of time I have my physical cards with me, when engaging in those activities, is so close to zero that I'll just call it zero.

An app that JUST lists the cards and costs, without the text, borders on useless to me.

57 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I listbuild well in advance of play. I often listbuild just to listbuild--some of them I don't ever get around to playing cuz I change my mind.

Thus, my cards are not to be found when I listbuild. I don't want to have to go get them, and shuffle thru them to get half the info.

I have to agree with this perspective. As far as list building goes anyway. But I also have to say, as far as a PDF goes, I don't want all the card text on there, it would make it super cumbersome to use. I see the benefit but view the PDF as a backup resource to the app. I suppose if someone really wanted it, you could always create your own with all of the information you felt needed to be on there. I think that costs and slots are plenty for what the PDF is meant to be. A reference of slots and points.

2 minutes ago, direweasel said:

Yeah - I listbuild when I'm at lunch at work, when I'm bored at the bus stop waiting for my kids to show up, basically anytime I'm free and bored and waiting around. The % of time I have my physical cards with me, when engaging in those activities, is so close to zero that I'll just call it zero.

An app that JUST lists the cards and costs, without the text, borders on useless to me.

Luckily, @evcameron got the picture to show the app doesn’t do that. A cost only app would be very frustrating, but still of some use. For my first couple of 2E lists I put together, I was already very familiar with the cards in question that all I needed was their cost.

8 minutes ago, direweasel said:

An app that JUST lists the cards and costs, without the text, borders on useless to me.

Yes, this would be a misstep. but it appears by the demo app, this is not the case.

Right, I saw the version @ Gencon too, but didn't really have time to play around with it much. The thing to remember though is, until it goes live, it's still in development, which means things COULD change. I'd say it's unlikely that they'd take all that stuff out at this point, but until the finished product is in my hands, who knows? There might be some compatibility issues with various platforms that require some fairly substantial adjustments, for instance. If they had it all worked out, it would be live already.

11 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

And they have like five other star wars games that are doing well

Well... Not Armada...

Way to kick the red-headed stepchild of FFG's games while it's down.

Now I'm going to have to knock over all your X-Wing stuff with that beautiful, giant Super Star Destroyer come Q1.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Why are you wasting ink printing out an electronic document, anyways??

...because he doesn't want to waste electricity?!!11!

3 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

...because he doesn't want to waste electricity?!!11!

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Lastly, I just realized that JJ48 and I have a completely different approach to listbuilding.

I listbuild well in advance of play. I often listbuild just to listbuild--some of them I don't ever get around to playing cuz I change my mind.

Thus, my cards are not to be found when I listbuild. I don't want to have to go get them, and shuffle thru them to get half the info. I just want a single-source document (or app) that I grab to listbuild without then playing or having my components for play around.

Fair enough. I guess having played card games most of my life, including well before online list-building was a thing, I just view digging through the physical cards as a large part of the experience, even when just making decks outside of game nights. It had honestly not occurred to me that anyone wouldn't have their cards with them.

I think this is a good example of why it's important not to assume everyone experiences things the same way, and I'm sorry if my responses got a bit sharp at times.

35 minutes ago, direweasel said:

Yeah - I listbuild when I'm at lunch at work, when I'm bored at the bus stop waiting for my kids to show up, basically anytime I'm free and bored and waiting around. The % of time I have my physical cards with me, when engaging in those activities, is so close to zero that I'll just call it zero.

Yep. And once I've done all that work, since I never go to tournaments, I'd rather just have a fully-fledged printout to use at the table rather than finding all those cards.

23 minutes ago, direweasel said:

The thing to remember though is, until it goes live, it's still in development,

Exactly. And I'm pretty sure FFG creeps out here, so expressing opinions is important for future developments.

57 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Fair enough. I guess having played card games most of my life , including well before online list-building was a thing, I just view digging through the physical cards as a large part of the experience , even when just making decks outside of game nights. It had honestly not occurred to me that anyone wouldn't have their cards with them.

I think this is a good example of why it's important not to assume everyone experiences things the same way, and I'm sorry if my responses got a bit sharp at times.

I did too, for Magic the Gathering. But there, the card was the actual playing component so there was really no alternative that made any kind of sense.

Seriously, if FFG wanted to, there is no reason this game couldn't be paperless (at least as far as your list goes).

Program (+/-Print).

Peg.

Play.