9 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Wasnt @LTD working on AI for armada?

Yes - Defenders if the Gelron Sector - I will link when I’m not on my phone - in the off topic forum as Armada AI tests.

6 hours ago, Norsehound said:

I feel this is where I'll disagree with Lyraeus, because I'd want players to have deep customization of their single craft and commander rather than build a force of 2-3 ships. I figure the best a player could do is purchase 1-2 'escort' light ships (Gozantis/Raiders/CR-90s/Hammerheads) that cannot be upgraded or acheive mission objectives, and are somehow lesser reflections of your command ships. It's similar to something I was experimenting with in my own Imperial HotAC variant with wingmen that you needed to pass activations to.

Point being, these wingmen would be nothing but mooks. The campaign is really about tricking out your one favorite ship and make into something special. And to field more ships, you should bring more players to the table.

At one point I made an upgrade tree for that Imperial HotAC, wherein a player had to unlock specific classes to acquire certain ships. GR-75s can unlock assault frigates, which in turn get to MC80s. Hammerheads go to Nebulons, which eventually unlock Liberties. Would this be something desired, or should players be able to jump to ships they want directly like in HotAC?

If we limit ships and whatnot, why not let them have 4 smalls?

That said, i was just using standard upgrade rules. If we aren't, then my last post is irrelevent.

I wasn't looking at a huge upgrades. I am looking at generic upgrades for the wold pack style groups. This allows flexibility but at the same time I am not going to test that straight off. I am looking at that definitely for the AI side though. Having a MC80 chased my a pack of Raiders makes them a bit dangerous

@Norsehound I think I figured out the click movement for the AI!

I think I prefer the task force approach. Otherwise players will just end up getting the biggest beefiest ship they can get their hands on. If your commander limit is 9 just give each ship a command rating. 2 for a CR90, 3 for a Neb, 4 for an MC30 etc. The player just has to put together a force that matches their rating. You could buy squadrons this way too. 1 point = 25 points of squadrons or something similar. You could limit starting players to 2 points which would fit @Lyraeus original starting ship idea.

Would early missions start on a 3x3? That could really help ratchet up the tension early on when they are more trying to evade or hit and run.

3 minutes ago, Gorthaur25 said:

I think I prefer the task force approach. Otherwise players will just end up getting the biggest beefiest ship they can get their hands on. If your commander limit is 9 just give each ship a command rating. 2 for a CR90, 3 for a Neb, 4 for an MC30 etc. The player just has to put together a force that matches their rating. You could buy squadrons this way too. 1 point = 25 points of squadrons or something similar. You could limit starting players to 2 points which would fit @Lyraeus original starting ship idea.

Would early missions start on a 3x3? That could really help ratchet up the tension early on when they are more trying to evade or hit and run.

Commander Rating is for what ships players can use and then trickles from there. CR90's and below are cheaper on the Command Rating scale than something like a MC30 or Whale would be. This allows players to possibly create a decent fleet but they would be at a disadvantage.

HotAC uses Pilot skill average to determine mission difficulty while I would use the Total Command Rating. So if 4 players pull out a Command Rating total of lets just say 30 then they could end up facing several waves of ISD's backed by a Carrier SSD (just a hypothetical as I have not designed that portion yet)

8 hours ago, Do I need a Username said:

If we limit ships and whatnot, why not let them have 4 smalls?

I would think up to three- their flagship with several key officers and survivability upgrades and two small replaceable mook ships that maybe are upgraded to take a single turbolaser. I dunno- I'm a fan of big boats and making them better, so I definitely like the focus of this being one player tricking out one ship, rather than running with a small fleet of ships.

For instance, my idea of an end-of-campaign fleet is something like:

• A flagship Nebulon with more than the usual upgrades and basic stat improvements (flank shields now at 2), with two one-upgrade CR-90s, two generic X-Wing squadrons, one ace, and a couple of Rogues.
• An MC80 Home One with twice the number of squadrons, two ion cannon upgrades (replacing the turbolaser), a one-shot gravwell upgrade (in place of a support team)
• A Pelta command ship with two GR-75s to push a total of about 10 squadrons, many of which are unique.

None of these would be over three ships, and most of your upgrade points go into beefing up the flagship. If you want quantity in your force, you're buying fighters.

While a swarm of small ships to run is a neat idea practically I don't think it's that survivable against the bread-and-butter of the Empire. Realistically you'd be facing ISDs and VSDs on a regular basis, with some concessions to massed ARQs and Gozantis on patrol attacks. I don't like the idea that the system is designed for a swarm of expendable mooks. I'd like to spend upgrade points on pushing a ship beyond its base stats- like giving it more upgrade slots or increased shields.

And if you want multiple of these upgraded ships well... grab some friends and play together! The more players are on the table, the higher that adversary will be upgraded (VSD goes to ISD, ISD get some upgrade cards beyond that).

Anyway, I have an ARQ card.

Significantly I've addressed the yaw issue on this chart. If I'm sticking with this system I think I'll leave a ship at a "standard" speed depending on its character, and the die rolls will adjust from there. I have yet to get these to the table but I might find some time today.

@Norsehound you make a great point. Will need to test it. I know the AI will have wolf pack tactics for several ships but got to work on that one.

Great card! Love the changes. The only issue I see is that movement feels like X-Wing. You head towards where the opponent currently is and not where they will be which means ships will be out of shooting easily.

Downloading vassal and soon getting on time to test a few things

First test of the game in my version. @Norsehound currently is testing out a more HotAC traditional but I am not sure on it yet. If you have vassal you can view this and tell me what you think. I try to explain the ai or abbreviate it if it was done the previous turn

CotER Mission 1 test Part 1

CotER Mission one Part 2

There are two parts because I am an idiot on vassal but I get better as I go

I took my AI card for a spin with the VSD in a traditional scenario and it worked fine. Some conditions came up that need addressing now (such as when AI fighters are activated, what is their primary target? If I redirect, what is the arc to redirect to? Should I really target brace tokens if the target ship has two, instead of the single evade?). It was challenging enough that it nearly destroyed the CR-90 I guided, which I think is a promising start. Where I think this will really matter is for faster ships like a Raider, which lives and dies by speed placement.

13 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

I took my AI card for a spin with the VSD in a traditional scenario and it worked fine. Some conditions came up that need addressing now (such as when AI fighters are activated, what is their primary target? If I redirect, what is the arc to redirect to? Should I really target brace tokens if the target ship has two, instead of the single evade?). It was challenging enough that it nearly destroyed the CR-90 I guided, which I think is a promising start. Where I think this will really matter is for faster ships like a Raider, which lives and dies by speed placement.

I am almost of mind that you have the movement down but I have the targeting part down because my issues were movement not target though there are ways to trick the AI

I can see about tweaking target priorities to put on an individual ship card. Right now the VSD is as baseline general as can be, because it can do everything (except defend well, that's another story).

To keep things simple, in my head, this was mission 1 of the campaign:

Flight from Arthon
The Rebellion recruitment drive is a success! As you are preparing to leave your home aboard your new commands, the Victory-Class Star Destroyer Inquisition drops out of hyperspace! Demanding your immediate surrender, the Victory makes its approach! You must flee the system, but not without striking a blow for the Rebellion while you have the chance...

Setup:
Follow the leading scenario setup diagram for placement of the Imperial Victory-class Star destroyer and its squadrons. Place the Rebel ships along the Rebel deployment edge. You play area is 3x3...

Fleets:
Rebels can choose one starting ship: A CR-90A corvette, a Hammerhead Corvette, or a GR-75 with two free squadrons of Y-Wings. If there is one player, also include an Nebulon-B Escort Frigate with four X-Wing squadrons.

End conditions:
Victory: At least half of the player ships have fled the board from the Imperial edge.
Defeat: If all player ships are destroyed.

Secondary Objective:
Each player scores 1xp point for every TIE Fighter squadron destroyed.
Each player scores 5xp points for every face-up damage card dealt to the VSD.
Each player scores 10xp if the VSD is destroyed before it flees offboard.

The point of mission 1 isn't necessarily win/lose. It's familiarity with the AI-driven engine from the VSD, and a chance to score some extra victory points from going above and beyond the call of the mission (which in this case, is fleeing the board).

That's a LOT of exp to hand out to a ship that gets swarmed easily. Good to test though.

1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

I can see about tweaking target priorities to put on an individual ship card. Right now the VSD is as baseline general as can be, because it can do everything (except defend well, that's another story).

To keep things simple, in my head, this was mission 1 of the campaign:

Flight from Arthon
The Rebellion recruitment drive is a success! As you are preparing to leave your home aboard your new commands, the Victory-Class Star Destroyer Inquisition drops out of hyperspace! Demanding your immediate surrender, the Victory makes its approach! You must flee the system, but not without striking a blow for the Rebellion while you have the chance...

Setup:
Follow the leading scenario setup diagram for placement of the Imperial Victory-class Star destroyer and its squadrons. Place the Rebel ships along the Rebel deployment edge. You play area is 3x3...

Fleets:
Rebels can choose one starting ship: A CR-90A corvette, a Hammerhead Corvette, or a GR-75 with two free squadrons of Y-Wings. If there is one player, also include an Nebulon-B Escort Frigate with four X-Wing squadrons.

End conditions:
Victory: At least half of the player ships have fled the board from the Imperial edge.
Defeat: If all player ships are destroyed.

Secondary Objective:
Each player scores 1xp point for every TIE Fighter squadron destroyed.
Each player scores 5xp points for every face-up damage card dealt to the VSD.
Each player scores 10xp if the VSD is destroyed before it flees offboard.

The point of mission 1 isn't necessarily win/lose. It's familiarity with the AI-driven engine from the VSD, and a chance to score some extra victory points from going above and beyond the call of the mission (which in this case, is fleeing the board).

It's a good mission. Will want to test it out though with more. Than 2 players it will get easy to put down the vsd

Testing CotER again. This time I am using The Hanger Squadron rules for this one

So I tested a system where the Imperial VSD holds onto squadrons in hanger bays like a Rapid launch but that they get full movement. . . .might need to tone it down for the "form up" bit. The VSD was brutal but it got a huge early strike simply because imperials get initiative. Hmmmmm will need to rework it and when the VSD speeds up. The AI gets tricked into speed 2 and then never gets to slow down

Day 3 of CotER testing. Working with the Squadron rules and the Quasar and ARQ vs three rebels.

Going for 50 points starting we have a GR75 Combat with 2 X-Wings, a Hammerhead Scout with Spinal Armaments, and a card decent early on on a CR90a I think when you only have 6 points (and trust me, I considered Cluster Bombs. . . but that one use and only hits one squadron. . . ehhhhh) is the Dual Turbolaser Turrets

Will be on vassal for a while. . . Want testers

How's this looking Lyraeus?

18 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

How's this looking Lyraeus?

No testing today. After explaining the AI to some of my local people they liked it. I know your version follows the HotAC way so I don't know how mine stacks up.

My next test is with higher command stack ships which will be in 19ish hours do if you want to see this on Vassal or want to play the Rebel side just let me know so I can work on the exact test more (open to everyone interested... All 6 of you I think)

21 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

How's this looking Lyraeus?

Oh forgot my last test. Thank you David for playing the rebels which let me see some areas to work on such as squadron launching and the AI doing wierd things like raming a ship to avoid going off the board... Fun times

I am liking where this is going, keep the good work, guys! Would love to play a HotAC version for Armada :3

1 hour ago, Seabook said:

I am liking where this is going, keep the good work, guys! Would love to play a HotAC version for Armada :3

Depends on the designer. @Norsehound is more HotAC while mine is a bit more unique. We will need to try each others version before we make a decision or we may just stick with one of the versions. Mine is more forward thinking so it might be better suited but I am of course bias

I'm hugely excited by these developments and looking forward to seeing how things progress!

Regarding the task force/single ship discussion...I'd suggest being as flexible as possible and ideally creating a system that can work with both, as that way the decision rests with the players. My experience with HotAC and similar games is that experienced groups are going to tweak the rules to use the ships they want, and find their own ways of balancing things out.

22 minutes ago, Dobbs Mottley said:

I'm hugely excited by these developments and looking forward to seeing how things progress!

Regarding the task force/single ship discussion...I'd suggest being as flexible as possible and ideally creating a system that can work with both, as that way the decision rests with the players. My experience with HotAC and similar games is that experienced groups are going to tweak the rules to use the ships they want, and find their own ways of balancing things out.

I figure as much which is why the AI is logic based so that it needs the least fiddling. Task Force testing will happen later in I think but I do want to try how they would work for the AI. . . I think I will work on that tonights test

I'm not sure how far I want to push development on my contributions for this... I'm kind of reaching that point where either I'll go whole-hog on this or just acquiesce to Lyraeus. I know how I want to do things, and it's not like I have to compromise... most projects I do I've been working solo, or my role was pretty clear cut within the project and I have the absolute freedom to work within the scope defined for me (or that I've defined myself).

I've stalled in building out a Raider movement profile. What's next to do on my end is finish that and build up some AI activation/behavior cards for fighters, then come up with a rudimentary xp spending system and build off of "Mission 1", which seems like a good start. I know I want to go the single-ship customization route, but I remember that's not what Lyraeus wants to do.

I will throw down some of my thoughts for what I was doing next;

• The Nebulon-B in Mission 1 is an assistant put in if you're single player, though under player control. It and the fighter squadrons go away after the first mission, you begin with either a corvette or a ship of your choice (hammerhead, GR-75) depending on how I want the upgrade tree to look.
• Mission 2 is platform defense. One station at the center of the board with three squadrons of Z-95s as defenders. Fend off a few waves of TIE/LN and TIE/SA, followed by either a Raider (easy difficulty) or an ARQ that kites at long range (hard difficulty). Empire's trying to destroy the station, defend it!
• These missions will have a relatively small amount of ships on the board- we're not looking at a fully automated Armada game. I'd sacrifice bulk for mission specifics.