Heroes and Villains

By Shiba Gunichi, in L5R LCG: Lore Discussion

As distinct from the Census our Dragonfly buddy so ably maintains...

I've been fairly interested in the relative scarcity of either clear-cut heroic figures or outright scumbags thus far- all to the good, since a bland binary limits narrative options- and we have far more heroes than villains. What follows is my purely subjective list, based upon the narrative role of the character and how they come off... disagreements or alternate interpretations readily encouraged!

Also note that I fully expect all of these to move over time- heroes will do terrible things, villains will surprise us, that sort of thing.

Heroes
Crab
Yasuki Hikari, kinda? Otherwise, they've been a little short on storytime for anyone but Yasuki Taka... and whatsthename in the Naga plot...
Crane
So far, the closest they seem to have is Hotaru... and she's not so much a hero as a protagonist. Maybe Asahina Maeko?
Dragon
We haven't seen much yet, but Togashi Mitsu is shown as good-hearted, a little impulsive, and understands the niceties of samurai diplomacy. Sounds like hero material to me...
Lion
Akodo Toturi. Now that she's a Lion, mmmmmmmmmaybe Akodo Kaede.
Phoenix
With that novella, Phoenix are spoiled... Shiba Tsukune and Kaito Kosori both rock my socks in a heroic fashion.
Scorpion
Scorpion heroes are kind of weird... I would actually argue that thus far, Bayushi Shoju absolutely counts. So does Bayushi Yojiro. Both understand that ambition is no friend to the Scorpion Clan...
Unicorn
Shinjo Shono is a bit harsh and unyielding in some respects, but he definitely understands honor and loyalty. Their Naga plot representative kinda counts.

Villains
Crab
Kuni Yori's making some ominous moves, but most Crab villainy is potential rather than actual at this stage. Well. Taka's a slimy carp, but... much like his Crane opposite number, he's hardly twirling his 'stache.
Crane
No outright villains as of yet. Kakita Yoshi's a fool and definitely an antagonist from Yasuki Taka's perspective, but his motives are actually remarkably pure, and his actions no worse than anyone else's in terms of malice.
Dragon
Nobody yet.
Lion
There are bloodthirsty and shady actions going on, but no outright villains as of yet. The Ikoma are highly suspect, and Matsu Gohei, if he's anything like his old lore incarnation? Yeah. Ditto for Akodo Kage.
Phoenix
Nobody yet, although Tadaka's headed in an ominous direction, and the other Masters are... deeply flawed at best.
Scorpion
Bayushi Kachiko, practically the poster child for Scorpion Villainy at this point in the narrative.
Unicorn
Nobody, really- Utaku Kamoko's clearly carrying some darkness, but... At worst, Altansarnai is flawed, not malicious. I may dislike Shahai, but she's hardly a villain.
Imperials
'Cause we need our bad guys, and the Imperial Families are here to provide! Hantei Joffre- er, Sotorii is so unlikable as to be almost comical. Daisetsu isn't overtly villainous, but there's something untrustworthy about our non-Heir smooth operator. Miya Satoshi's a wee bit sinister...
Minor Clans
Yoritomo? He certainly seems quite prepared to capitalize upon the weaknesses of both the Crane and the Crab, and isn't too shy about it... eh. Anti-hero for now.

17 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Villains
Dragon
Nobody yet.

How about some of the members of the PLS? The son of Mashahige was a Dragon, and they’re preparing to attack the Dragon. If they don’t count as Dragon, maybe make a Ronin section?

Ikoma Ujiaki for the Lion, is clearly manipulative, and schemed against his clan Champion.

Seppun Ishikawa as a hero for the Imperials. Although his love for Kaede (and consequent hate for Toturi) can tip him to the villain side later...

Edited by Tabris2k

Hm.... Ronin section is a possibility... think I'll hold off on really counting them until we get more, though. The PLS are in a sort of grey area right now.

Matsu Tsuko is a Lion hero.

Doji Kuwanan is certainly a Crane hero. I wish Hotaru was a hero but she is more like Kachiko's plaything.

Ikoma Ujiaki is not a villain. He's a red herring type character, someone writers make obviously unlikeable (like Hantei Sotorii) to distract from a truly sinister character.

Shosuro Miyako is pretty villainous. Yeah, she's a Scorpion doing Scorpion stuff. But I get the strong impression of heartlessness.

I think Seppun Ishikawa is probably meant to be a white hat.

Villains :

Crab :

Kuni Yori is one inch from becoming one. And it gets worse. Also Yasuki Taka condoned outright robbery and piracy when he didn't get what he want. Pretty villainous to me

Crane

None so far, but i am concerned with Kuwanan. He may do something... inappropriate in the name of pursuing justice

Dragon
Nobody yet.


Lion
Not yet, but there are candidates for becoming one (Matsu Tsuko, Gohei).


Phoenix
Tadaka's almost guaranteed to become one. A shame, really.


Scorpion
Ehm, all of them? It's their job after all. But to be fair, Kachiko is THE VILLAIN compared to anyone else.


Unicorn
No one yet

Mantis

They are pirates, smugglers and robbers. What else there is to say? To the chopping block with them

Imperials
Sotorii is one for sure, Daisetsu is one with high probability

1 hour ago, Araenon said:

Villains :
Unicorn
No one yet

Quote

From Heart of the Garden :

Shahai : "So even the prince wasn’t as perfect as the Imperial Court portrayed him. Whoever was in charge of his wardrobe should be executed for leaving his sandals soiled so."

idk, she has potential

Also, as an addendum:

Perfect Land sect

Join the cult of the lil'teacher to leave the cycle of reincarnation and enjoy a society devoid of servitude but FIRST help me wage war on the samurai so that i can regain my place as heir and you all can officially serve me

Shadowlands Denizens
they need no introduction


The Void/Nothingness
it has already proven some interest in kidnapping/devouring people
---

1 hour ago, Araenon said:

Mantis

They are pirates, smugglers and robbers. What else there is to say? To the chopping block with them

No truer words were ever spoken

Edited by mirrorcat
4 minutes ago, mirrorcat said:

If a scummy pirate pillages a worthless Crane... has any crime been committed? ;)

2 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

If a scummy pirate pillages a worthless Crane... has any crime been committed? ;)

How is it our fault that a poor Crane vessel should find itself in distress during a storm and despite our valiant sailors efforts leap to the aid of the crew they should be misconstrued as aggressors. It was a true shame that they were not able to get to them in time to save the poor souls due to the Crane's distrust, equally a shame that the vital cargo they were carrying was also lost at sea. ;)

Edited by Schmoozies
**** the Typos

Hida Tomonatsu, a true Crab hero.

Kaiu Shuichi may be edging towards villain, in that last fiction.

I think Matsu Mitsuko deserves to be considered a Lion Hero, probably more so than Tsuko.

The Asako Inquisitor is a bit dubious: he might even count as an anti-villain (doing the wrong thing for good reasons

The flaw here is that Hero and Villain is often a question of perspective for many of the characters.

For example Shinjo Shono from a Lion perspective is likely a villain, refusing their "legitimate" right to control of Hisu Mori Toride and having lead the army that defeated the token Lion force that was sent to enforce their claim to the city. On the other hand the Unicorn view him as a hero defending their territory and putting the Lion invaders who refused the right to settle the matter via an honorable duel to the sword.

I see Shinjo Shono as a hero and worthy adversary. He acted properly despite his personal feelings.

5 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

The flaw here is that Hero and Villain is often a question of perspective for many of the characters.

For example Shinjo Shono from a Lion perspective is likely a villain, refusing their "legitimate" right to control of Hisu Mori Toride and having lead the army that defeated the token Lion force that was sent to enforce their claim to the city. On the other hand the Unicorn view him as a hero defending their territory and putting the Lion invaders who refused the right to settle the matter via an honorable duel to the sword.

"One mans terrorist is another mans hero"

I like this complex human characters, with virtues, flaws, achievements and mistakes more than the traditional black and white, good and evil, law and chaos approach of other games and universes. I think trying to categorize them as heroes or villains, or potential heroes or villains, oversimplifies and detracts from this richness and (one of the reasons that) what makes the l5r setting unique.

Edited by RafaelNN
Grammar
6 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

The Asako Inquisitor is a bit dubious: he might even count as an anti-villain (doing the wrong thing for good reasons

That's the anti-hero. It goes like this:

- Straight Hero: good guy doing good things (Akodo Toturi)

- Anti-Hero: good guy doing bad things (Isawa Tadaka)

- Anti-Villain: bad guy doing good things (Bayushi Kachiko)

- Straight Villain: bad guy doing bad things (Matsu Gohei)

9 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

- Anti-Villain: bad guy doing good things (Bayushi Kachiko)

I think you meant Shoju here as Kachiko just seems to be out for herself and her clans personal power

Just now, Schmoozies said:

I think you meant Shoju here as Kachiko just seems to be out for herself and her clans personal power

Yeah, she is a bad girl. But she also has tact, and that disqualifies her from being a Straight Villain.

As of now, Bayushi Shoju is closer to be a Straight Hero.

Tact?

13 hours ago, Manchu said:

Tact?

She is not going around killing people and gloating over their corpses what I mean ;) .

Edited by AtoMaki
59 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

She is not going around killing people and gloating over their corpses what I mean ;) .

But this isn't required to be evil.

19 minutes ago, Ignithas said:

But this isn't required to be evil.

She is evil. But she is pretty tame when compared to pretty much everyone on the evil spectrum.

13 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

She is evil. But she is pretty tame when compared to pretty much everyone on the evil spectrum.

I would disagree with that. She is less flashy than many of the kill em all and let the Kami sort it out types of evil, but hers is in many ways a far more insidious and scary type of evil. The kind that has worked its way into a position of power and is now leveraging that power for their own (and to an extent their Clans) power. She casually talks about subverting one of the most important political positions in the Empire (Emerald Champion) when she casually instructs Yojiro to rig it so that her brother-in-law will win the event. She is an ambitious, conniving and power hungry and would appear to have no real check on her ambition except for her husband, who despite his unease at the scrutiny her and the rest of the clans rise to power due to the weakness of the Crane does not seem inclined to fully rein her in. The only saving grace seems to be that the Emperor seems wise to her games and so is not adverse to occasionally throw a curve ball into her plans and certain elements of the Clan seem to understand better than her that the Scorpion cannot function with too much scrutiny on them.

The real question will be how long until she grows tired of the Emperor interfering with her plots and decides that the young prince would be far more pliable so the current Emperor suffers a tragic "illness" that ends his life.

10 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

The only saving grace seems to be that the Emperor seems wise to her games and so is not adverse to occasionally throw a curve ball into her plans and certain elements of the Clan seem to understand better than her that the Scorpion cannot function with too much scrutiny on them.

The real question will be how long until she grows tired of the Emperor interfering with her plots and decides that the young prince would be far more pliable so the current Emperor suffers a tragic "illness" that ends his life.

I think the curveball the Emperor just threw is going to catch her quite flat-flooted...

Crane Hero: Asahina Maeko. Pure motives, dedication, creative planning. Deals well with the crew.

Crane Villain: None yet. Kakita Yoshi or Doji Kuwanan both have potential, depends on how things shake out. Daidoji Uji is a complete unknown. Maybe Harriers are a thing, Satsume didn’t know, found out, and was murdered for it. That’d be a **** of a thing.

1 hour ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

Maybe Harriers are a thing, Satsume didn’t know, found out, and was murdered for it. That’d be a **** of a thing.

...especially since you would think such a crack champion, and the Crane Clan Champion at that, would know about his own clan's harriers...

Kisada is best hero.