So the downside to choosing the battlefield, even in mirrors, is that it's supposed to give the other play an advantage. This plays out super fairly with aggro, vehicle, and combo games imo(anything damage based). However it feels like choosing your own battlefield is supposed to have some small consolation for the opponent. In aggro games, getting the shields can help a great deal! However, with Mill this isn't the case since they don't add a thing to stopping mill's agenda. I was playing at Gencon and had the misfortune to lose the battlefield roll, my opponent went for his and I get shields. And it was after the 2nd pacify dropped that I realized that maybe 2 shields aren't a fair trade off for my opponent getting to go first and choosing the battlefield.

While this wasn't really an issue when mill wasn't as big a deal, but now that Mill can top a big tourney and put up signifigant numbers in top we should do something to rectify this. To that end what would do to fix it? Give players who go 2nd a choice between shields(because those work fine in mill) and something else. The something else, I think is the hard part. To that end, here's some things I came up with:

• Draw - Lets you get another card, doesn't stop mill but makes them have to work harder the first turn at least. Downside is that more discard heavy decks(like the current) have an extra card to hit and it helps combo decks like "hotcakes" be better.
• Damage- Do a damage to a character. This would be good in that it helps weaken the mill agenda. Downside, might be better for some decks than taking shields which I don't like and doesn't help the mill mirror.
• Mill - This helps in the mill mirror with battlefield selection, I don't think this is good though since it doesn't help damage decks.
• Combo - Maybe add all 2/3 of the above? Idk, but I think a combo of choosing between 2shields, 1 dmg, or 1mill sounds pretty good to me.

Let me know what you think!

my favorite personal deck and I wanted to make it as soon as I started in the game I call it Tarkin PHD intensive care.

its a Tarkin and doctor aphra deck.. I designed it to mill, hand control, and side damage. its hilarious fun, its not always a game winner but its so much fun.

ill post my deck list...

https://swdestinydb.com/deck/view/496977

I'd say that the consolation for them picking their battlefield is a) they don't get two shields, and b) they choose the battlefield that is going to do the least damage to them when you claim every round.

Okay, so it's not a guarantee that you'll claim first against mill, but it's very, very common. Most mill decks I've run, the battlefield ends up being whatever screws me the least, and not something I actively expect to be using.

Change the rules. Let a shield lost prevent one card milling or discarding. Boom mill is fixed again

I think an advantage of getting shields is that your opponent doesn't get them. You are way more likely to claim, so that advantage can be turned back on them. Especially with battlefields like Imperial Palace, War Torn Streets, and Command Center, you can get rid of some valuable cards that way.

10 hours ago, JoshisJoshingyou said:

Change the rules. Let a shield lost prevent one card milling or discarding. Boom mill is fixed again

Mill wins one big event and it needs to be fixed? Sheesh.

6 hours ago, JoeyBriefcase said:

I think an advantage of getting shields is that your opponent doesn't get them.

This. Even if you don't get much advantage from the shields, your opponent not having them is a pretty big deal.

5 hours ago, Buhallin said:

Mill wins one big event and it needs to be fixed? Sheesh.

Not that guy but this has been an issue with the game since the beginning imo, so mill winning just sorta highlights it. I also (still) think that mill getting the short end on tie breakers is a serious issue, but that doesn't detract from the handicap of losing the battlefield selection not being appropriate is an issue too. I do think shields preventing mill is not a good fix either though so I'm with you there.

5 hours ago, Buhallin said:

This. Even if you don't get much advantage from the shields, your opponent  not ha  ving them is a pretty  big deal.

Every mill deck that I saw win the roll tends to pick their battlefield and since mill decks aren't slow anymore, it's not so easy to turn it back on them from what I saw. And with the mitigation suit and large health pool(Cassian, Yoda, Anakin has 27 health!) 2 shields hardly matters. I just don't think them not getting shields is enough, but hey if you disagree that's fair too. Just trying to discuss alternatives that people would be cool with.

21 hours ago, Atomisk said:

So the downside to choosing the battlefield, even in mirrors, is that it's supposed to give the other play an advantage. This plays out super fairly with aggro, vehicle, and combo games imo(anything damage based). However it feels like choosing your own battlefield is supposed to have some small consolation for the opponent. In aggro games, getting the shields can help a great deal! However, with Mill this isn't the case since they don't add a thing to stopping mill's agenda. I was playing at Gencon and had the misfortune to lose the battlefield roll, my opponent went for his and I get shields. And it was after the 2nd pacify dropped that I realized that maybe 2 shields aren't a fair trade off for my opponent getting to go first and choosing the battlefield.

While this wasn't really an issue when mill wasn't as big a deal, but now that Mill can top a big tourney and put up signifigant numbers in top we should do something to rectify this. To that end what would do to fix it? Give players who go 2nd a choice between shields(because those work fine in mill) and something else. The something else, I think is the hard part. To that end, here's some things I came up with:

• Draw - Lets you get another card, doesn't stop mill but makes them have to work harder the first turn at least. Downside is that more discard heavy decks(like the current) have an extra card to hit and it helps combo decks like "hotcakes" be better.
• Damage- Do a damage to a character. This would be good in that it helps weaken the mill agenda. Downside, might be better for some decks than taking shields which I don't like and doesn't help the mill mirror.
• Mill - This helps in the mill mirror with battlefield selection, I don't think this is good though since it doesn't help damage decks.
• Combo - Maybe add all 2/3 of the above? Idk, but I think a combo of choosing between 2shields, 1 dmg, or 1mill sounds pretty good to me.

Let me know what you think!

I think to a certain extent we are trying to fix a symptom of a larger problem, Mill is simply to fast now. Question is what can be done to fix this. I personally think the issue is deck size. Every other game where there is a mill mechanic, with similiar low values of 1-4 cards, are ALL 50+ card games. Its a combination of the mill values and the small size of Destiny decks. Milling even up to 6 cards in magic meant only hitting 10% of the deck where that is hitting 20% of the deck in destiny. Also add in that in Magic your running 4 copies of a card and Destiny is only two and mill hitting vital cards is even worse.

Id say go in the middle and use the values from another CCG I played, Warlord. The decks in that game where 50 cards with up to 3 copies. Warlord was also a dice game, basically being D&D the card game, with creatures having a Armor value and Hit Points. Even with Warlord decks your talking your average game was no longer than about 20 minutes.

now I know the complaint would likely be that now you have access to way to many slots so you can just throw everything in and such. That might be true, but Im simply looking at a way to put Mill and Aggro on a level playing field. More deck means Mill has to play faster, which its not really having a problem of, while giving Aggro that buffer so its not been 2 rounds and your already down 20+ cards which basically hoses you at that point.

The aggro game is too fast, so they had to make the mill game quicker. There’s a couple issues here:

1) Mill as a win condition is an NPE period. Unless it’s occasional just to keep a game within a certain time to completion, it’s a negative. Players in general want to use the cards they put in their deck.

2) As the above poster said, the deck sizes are too small. Most card games do not end with both players seeing most of their cards. Destiny easily does. Not all the time, but quite often. The 30 card design space and tempo of the game leaves very little room for toolbox. You build your deck to do what it does and have very little room left for anything else. This is abnormal in card games because most others have more space for one-ofs.

Destiny is fun. It just isn’t designed right. There are fundamental flaws all over the place. But, it’s the best CCG out right now, so it doesn’t need to be perfect.

12 hours ago, gokubb said:

1) Mill as a win condition is an NPE period. Unless it’s occasional just to keep a game within a certain time to completion, it’s a negative. Players in general want to use the cards they put in their deck.

So you killing my one blue character so I can't use Deflect is an NPE too, right? Players in general want to win the game, so I guess losing is an NPE. Better fix that fast!

The core premise here is rather fatally flawed. There's nothing OP about mill at the moment - it's gotten competitive, and people have to deal with it. But people don't like it, so the baseline thought is that if mill is competitive, it's broken.

It seems like most people are only content playing like half-naked Scotsmen charging across a field screaming at each other. Mill is very beatable, but requires a different approach to how you play. Resource conservation (i.e. card management) is far more important than against an aggro deck. Removal is important - if you play against a control deck and let them counter your moves while you let them do everything they want, you're going to have a bad time. You have to build for it in the meta, and play against it differently.

There are a few cards that I think are problems in mill. Clandestine Operation is just stupid with special chaining (but what isn't?). Anakin's Podracer is a pretty silly combo as well, effectively giving you a perfectly reliable 3 side (two shield plus discard) for 2 resources. But like it or not, mill is how Destiny implements anything other than aggro decks. Basic control is too temporary - you remove dice, and next turn they'll be back, at some point you will run out. If you're happy playing like crazed Scotsmen, then sure, but I like a little more variety.

1 hour ago, Buhallin said:

So you killing my one blue character so I can't use Deflect is an NPE too, right? Players in general want to win the game, so I guess losing is an NPE. Better fix that fast  !

Those scenarios are not anywhere near the same. One is a balancing mechanic for a card. The other is a play style designed so your opponent cannot use their cards. Mill as a win condition is stupid in all games. Sure it’s beatable, but it just isn’t fun to play against. And, it’s not clever or even hard to build. Mill right now is kind of like old Poe/Maz. Any halfway intelligent human can drop the deck down without much thought to the list.

Mill isn’t broken. It’s beatable. It just sucks. I like to play this game whether I win or lose. But, win or lose I do not like playing against a mill opponent. It’s so not Star Wars.

5 minutes ago, gokubb said:

Those scenarios are not anywhere near the same. One is a balancing mechanic for a card. The  other is a play style designed so your opponent cannot use their cards.

If I'm dead by turn 2-3(or worse- turn 1) i can't use my cards either.

I've had far less fun getting blown out by hyper aggro decks than i have by getting milled.

Maybe we should just all play 'snap' instead?

On 8/8/2018 at 2:36 PM, Stu35 said:

If I'm dead by turn 2-3(or worse- turn 1) i can't use my cards either.

I've had far less fun getting blown out by hyper aggro decks than i have by getting milled.

Maybe we should just all play 'snap' instead?

And thats another bad symptom of the game currently, Hyper Aggro. Even in Magic turn 1-4 kills where very rare, which your playing a best 2-3 in a hour, aka games that are 10 minutes shorter than a suggested Destiny round. Really the game can go way WAY to fast when facing Mill OR Aggro right now. It completely pushes out those mid/late game decks because you are on at most a 4-5 turn clock.