The whole point of the Phantom was it's a very mobile ship that hits super hard and is extremely evasive, but dies super fast due to its low health. While the 2.0 phantom keeps its mobility, it loses everything else that made it special. It no longer hits notably hard, it gained a point of health but essentially lost two points of agility because it has no way to reapply cloaking during combat, meaning it's relying on two dice. Add the evade changes to that, and it has no way to stay in the game as it can't defend against either three dice attacks or swarms of two dice effectively.

On top of that, being dropped from four to three attack on top of losing key cards like FCS and Gunner means it doesn't hit particularly hard at all - many ships can hit just as hard if not harder now.

While I'm aware a lot of ships got nerfed, I can't see a single reason to ever bring a phantom now, as it lost everything that made it worthwhile, and all it got in exchange is a few points and a single health.

The most wrong anyone has been in a while

It boils down to this

Phantoms are cheap as ****. You can get a juke Sigma Ace for the same as you could a basic 1st Ed Sigma with nothing

To recap:

-1 red die

+FAR SUPERIOR IN EVERY WAY Stygium Array

+1 Hull

+Ps (effectively 6/7 in 1st Ed terms)

+Ept (Juke)

Basically Stygium array is ridiculous and phantoms cost as much as Xwings

If anything, they got buffed to ****

They do less damage, but they are much more durable and affordable.

My only complaint is the lack of a lock action. They could also use some good generic crew and sensor upgrades.

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

The most wrong anyone has been in a while

It boils down to this

Phantoms are cheap as ****. You can get a juke Sigma Ace for the same as you could a basic 1st Ed Sigma with nothing

To recap:

-1 red die

+FAR SUPERIOR IN EVERY WAY Stygium Array 

+1 Hull

+Ps effectively

+Ept (Juke)

Basically Stygium array is ridiculous and phantoms cost as much as Xwings

If anything, they got buffed to ****

Stygium is slightly better, but is vastly inferior to Advanced Cloaking Device, where most of its evasiveness comes from.

5 minutes ago, joyrock said:

The whole point of the Phantom was it's a very mobile ship that hits super hard and is extremely evasive, but dies super fast due to its low health. While the 2.0 phantom keeps its mobility, it loses everything else that made it special. It no longer hits notably hard, it gained a point of health but essentially lost two points of agility because it has no way to reapply cloaking during combat, meaning it's relying on two dice. Add the evade changes to that, and it has no way to stay in the game as it can't defend against either three dice attacks or swarms of two dice effectively.

On top of that, being dropped from four to three attack on top of losing key cards like FCS and Gunner means it doesn't hit particularly hard at all - many ships can hit just as hard if not harder now.

While I'm aware a lot of ships got nerfed, I can't see a single reason to ever bring a phantom now, as it lost everything that made it worthwhile, and all it got in exchange is a few points and a single health.

They changed it's role. Before it was a backbone of a list. They didn't want it to be that way anymore, they wanted it more acey.

1 minute ago, MegaSilver said:

They changed it's role. Before it was a backbone of a list. They didn't want it to be that way anymore, they wanted it more acey.

And in doing so they made it thoroughly mediocre and unremarkable.

No, they did get nerfed. A lot. More than that, Phantoms got redesigned to the point that they basically look nothing like the ship that came before it. For that reason, as someone who loved flying 1.0 Phantoms and is having a blast with Krennic/Whisper, I probably won't be flying Phantoms much in 2.0. About the only thing they did right was nerf its cost ridiculously too (something the Jumpmaster can't say). I can only hope when they get around to its rerelease they give us some config cards that make it closer to its 1.0 iteration.

It feels to me like FFG went out of its way to target nerf everything that was ever competitive in the game into the ground. We'll see how that pans out, but I don't think the competitive lists were that overpowered in comparison.

The old phantom won or lost based on PS because of ACD. The new phantom is much cheaper and less matchup dependent.

Sure, it is a very different ship, but this version will see a lot more table time. They’re even great naked at 44 points!

The TIE Phantom is a symbol of when and how everything changed. Going over 3 firepower was a mistake. Just look at The Ghost and Fenn Rau, and you'll see that I'm right. 3 should be the absolute limit, if you ask me. The Phantom taught us how important higher firepower and repositioning was, it changed the battlefield forever. Everything after it, had to take it into account. Even its nerfed version.

15 minutes ago, joyrock said:

Stygium is slightly better, but is vastly inferior to Advanced Cloaking Device, where most of its evasiveness comes from.

lol, no

Stygium is RIDICULOUSLY better

could old Stygium Array let you decloak at the end of the round? No? Strictly and harshly inferior

and tell me, what good was ACD against higher PS (which was basically everyone in the competitive meta)?

Stygium Array lets you decloak without even needing to attack


there's no question about it, 90% of the time you'd be silly to take the 1st ed phantom over the 2nd ed especially when their crippling weakness to higher PS, TLTs, bombs, and the rest of the stupid bull of 1st ed are all gone

It's actually a bit of a problem, because every time I start making a cool new empire list and think "hmmmm, what do I add to compliment this badass build....sigh, it's juke Whisper & Echo & Academy again, ain't it?"

17 minutes ago, joyrock said:

The whole point of the Phantom was it's a very mobile ship that hits super hard and is extremely evasive, but dies super fast due to its low health. While the 2.0 phantom keeps its mobility, it loses everything else that made it special. It no longer hits notably hard, it gained a point of health but essentially lost two points of agility because it has no way to reapply cloaking during combat, meaning it's relying on two dice. Add the evade changes to that, and it has no way to stay in the game as it can't defend against either three dice attacks or swarms of two dice effectively.

On top of that, being dropped from four to three attack on top of losing key cards like FCS and Gunner means it doesn't hit particularly hard at all - many ships can hit just as hard if not harder now.

While I'm aware a lot of ships got nerfed, I can't see a single reason to ever bring a phantom now, as it lost everything that made it worthwhile, and all it got in exchange is a few points and a single health.

1.0 Phantom: if your Phantom shoots first, you win.

2.0 Phantom: interacts with the game beyond list building stage.

It did get nerfed. Hard. It was also dramatically improved. With the change in stats and cost also comes a change in role. If you're looking for a dominant, untouchable ace to sweep an enemy list, don't bring a 2.0 Phantom; Soontir is going to be more your speed. If you're looking for a unique and unpredictable flanker to harry your opponents without sinking half your list into it, then do bring a 2.0 Phantom.

Whisper with Seventh Sister should be playable. All the other pilots are tier2 or lower. I'll second, the lack of target lock is a big deal. Juke is THE talent upgrade for whisper. Gotta up that damage output. There is currently not a system slot upgrade worth putting on Whisper. Hull upgrade is probably worth it. Whisper + Seventh Sister + Juke = 68 points

You CANNOT simply joust with this phantom. Old 1e Whisper could straight up joust anything in her prime as long as she shot first. We don't want ships that can solo 3 X-wings! Whisper is viable, or at the very least, reasonable close to being viable. The other pilots are no good because FFG INTENTIONALLY prices certain pilots out of being useful.

It's neither nerfed or buffed as far as I can see (which is not far), it's changed.

I'm quite attracted to the new version, seems an ace like utility ship. The crew slot and cloak make it something quite different to everything else. With sensors as well, it should make for some interesting variant builds down the line.

I'll miss the old super glass cannon but I won't miss it taking up half a list.

The Phantom now is far better than in 1.0. Yes they got toned down from some of the old jank they could do. That’s okay though, for 2 reasons.

1. They lacked the ability to be worth thier points quite often.They either pulled thier weight and then some. Or they were dead weight.

2. Nothing is auto included to make them work.

Your perception based on 1.0 needs recalibration. How often in 1.0 did you have multiple Phantoms outside a casual game? Probably rarely certainly far less after TLT surfaced. It’s also no longer public Enemy #1 that has every ship in your opponents list turning to blast it before it fires. Cloaked movement aside Phantoms were pretty predictable. You knew the load out going in just seeing the model sitting there. Competitive wise you knew kill the phantom the list will crumble and you have a massive point advantage. Now it’s in line with other ships which changes threats and shakes up points to a level that makes them far better than they used to be. A few minor tweaks does not mean the ship is dead or bad by any means.

10 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

2.0 Phantom: interacts with the game beyond list building stage. 

It really doesn't, it just dies. There's nothing setting it apart or above any other ship.

3 minutes ago, joyrock said:

It really doesn't, it just dies. There's nothing setting it apart or above any other ship.

Have you tried the new phantoms at all?

17 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Have you tried the new phantoms at all?

Really don't need to.

Of all the the things that have changed in 2nd, the phantom has changed the most. By a looong way. @Cuz05 is right, it is essentially an entirely new ship with no relation to its old version anymore and we are not really going to know how well it plays until we’ve had a few months of trying it out. You might be right and it’ll be too fragile, or fickle might be right and all the tweaks will make it a truly unique, powerful ship.

WE DO NOT KNOW YET

What we do know is that the old version had a huge, warping effect on the meta and the ship needed to change. It has changed and we’ll just have to play it to find out if the change was good.

22 minutes ago, joyrock said:

It really doesn't, it just dies. There's nothing setting it apart or above any other ship.

Now we know you’re either determined to complain mindlessly or else just trolling.

If you want to make it work, try it out. You’ll find it’s still extremely slippery and quite capable of evading multiple attacks.

Don’t like the joust? Stay cloaked until you get a more favorable matchup. Or else decloak strategically to dodge the most dangerous arcs.

The devs day this is more how they wanted cloaking to look all along. Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it.

4 minutes ago, joyrock said:

Really don't need to.

That’s plain dumb.

As someone who hated 1.0 phantoms with every fibre of their body, I am very excited to try the 2.0 Phantom out.

1.0 Phantoms were flaky as ****, relied on higher PS not skillful positioning, and literally took up half your list. Having a flimsy flanker as the backbone of your list was a complete dealbreaker for me, and hence why I swore off phantoms in 1.0.

2.0 phantoms are dirt cheap. They will be the gnat of players lists, playing as a flanker should and distracting your opponent from the bulk of their list, and taking advantage of opponents if they ignore it. They actually got an initiative buff although they no longer rely so heavily on it, coupled with more constitution if you do end up in the wrong spot. They actually require planning and comprehension of the game, rather than just a reactionary decision like with 1.0 Whisper. I say Whisper not Phantom for good reason. It was Whisper or bust in 1.0, in 2.0 there is genuine potential in Echo and the generics. 2.0 Phantoms actually have an talent slot they can utilize now. In my opinion it also access to better crew in 0-0-0, 2.0 Kallus, Seventh Sister and Grand Inquisitor.

They may have smashed the glass cannon that was the Phantom on the ground, but they built a much better ship out of its shattered remains.

19 minutes ago, joyrock said:

Really don't need to.

Let’s all leave the troll to his cave gents. It was entertaining for awhile.

Is the idea that everyone's favorite Imperial cloak-equipped ship is now just a Phantom of its former self?

41 minutes ago, joyrock said:

Really don't need to.

That would be like not flying a tie-fighter academy pilot because " You just know they're gonna die and you don't need to try them at all."

I was thinking the same as you at first, but after actually trying the phantom out, i can tell you that advanced sensor echo is a beast. Play slippery and flank, and you will force enemy to dedicate more point Echo's way than she's worth, allowing you to strike hard with the rest of your list. And since she doesn't cost like half your points anymore, there's actually a list to support her now. You can even do some pretty solid 4 -ships mini swarm with a phantom in the lead.

Please explain to me how Phantoms are relevant in today's 1.0 meta.

ACD is utterly worthless in a game where almost every list has a pilot at PS10 or higher with some form of repositioning. You are usually getting shot before you can recloak. You probably won't get to recloak at all if your higher-PS opponent was able to get out of your firing arc, or was able to stick you with guaranteed stress before you could attack. And with 4 attack dice at 50 points, on a chassis that's less durable than an Ewok glider, they are priority targets to be killed early before they can do much damage.

Even the pinnacle of 1.0 Phantom effectiveness, VI Whisper with Krennic, is still only a 4/2/2/3 statline when defending against ace pilots, who are everywhere.

2.0 Phantoms have much more control over their cloaking. If the opponent doesn't shoot at them and force them to spend the Evade token (which they got for free), they are guaranteed to still have that token at the end of the round. They're one of the few ships that can reliably get a Focus/Evade combo every round. They're cheap enough that they can be the complement to other deadly foes, instead of being the focal point for your entire list. And now that VI is not a thing, they can have a higher PS out of the box and can actually take other pilot talents like Juke.

I don't think the Tie Phantom is a @#$@#$ anymore, so that probably means it got nerfed, along with anything else that was good in 1.0. That's a good thing, though. Everything was taken down a notch, except those things that needed to be nudged up a notch or two.