@kaffis @Parakitor

This is not towards you really, more for my frustration from other threads as well, so sorry in beforehand:

Ok, so the current conventional wisdom is that Uthuk is not too strong, it's the othet factions' players that are not creative enough. AND Waiqar is not too weak, it's the Waiqar players that are too bad. If we gave waiqar something that would be their game (like Uthuk have "go straight forward and bulldoze", or Latari has "dance away and whittle down" or Daqan has versatility) it would be a problem.

Edit:

The best thing Waiqar currently can do (looking at the latest tournaments) is having Ankaur bring in other faction's Spined threshers or Heavy crossbowmen. Yay Waiqar!

I see the restriction more as allowing for more options in the future. Introduce a fourth hero and lo and behold she is also brutal stable. Now waiqar gets two units that can brutal 4 or higher. And hopefully both are constantly regenerating so their threat never goes down.

Waiqar is a hard army to design new units for. Since Ankaur let's you just add more trays to infantry you can't just create a strong infantry unit or the game might devolve into spamming and building up that one unit.

Then you also have to worry about costs since Ardus can make it so you pay for the smaller formation, but you can still get the other upgrades. Like uping the brutal since now the 3x2 gets the siege upgrade, etc. But you still have to balance the cost for Not having Ardus and.... arggh! my brain....

I get what you are saying and it's a bummer you can't combine it now, but to be able to design new flashy units in the future they need these annoying, seemingly arbitrary, restrictions.

1 hour ago, Xquer said:

I see the restriction more as allowing for more options in the future. Introduce a fourth hero and lo and behold she is also brutal stable. Now waiqar gets two units that can brutal 4 or higher. And hopefully both are constantly regenerating so their threat never goes down.

Waiqar is a hard army to design new units for. Since Ankaur let's you just add more trays to infantry you can't just create a strong infantry unit or the game might devolve into spamming and building up that one unit.

Then you also have to worry about costs since Ardus can make it so you pay for the smaller formation, but you can still get the other upgrades. Like uping the brutal since now the 3x2 gets the siege upgrade, etc. But you still have to balance the cost for Not having Ardus and.... arggh! my brain....

I get what you are saying and it's a bummer you can't combine it now, but to be able to design new flashy units in the future they need these annoying, seemingly arbitrary, restrictions.

Well, to answer in a somewhat childish way; I've played Waiqar for over a year, when does the sowing (putting in seemingly arbitrary nerfing restrictions) end and the reaping (come out blasting) begin? The Death Knights was looking really great, then Ravos turned out more or less to be their bane with his wound-giving that their ability does not cover. As things are now I'm even going to pass on the imho mediocre Wraiths. Lord Werebat is an instabuy, but AARRGH! on this nerf!

EDIT:

And also AAARRGH! on:

-That Lancers (and the Heavy support lancer) can't blight engaged units.

-That Ankaur champ can't add trays to his own unit.

-That Ankaur takes so many self inflicted wounds that he is suicidal and can't be used as cavalry champ.

-That Wraiths can't get rerolls or attack before being sliced.

-That Reanimate archers don't have Regenerate.

-That Reanimate archers don't have a champion slot.

-That Ardus don't have a init 3 speed 1 move and no reform modifier.

-That Ardus champ costs too much.

-That Ravos is bypassing Death Knight's defensive ability.

-That duskblade is to expensive (either in cost or surges).

-That Reanimates which figures are heavily equipped (and magically imbued) can't have equipment (and therefore Runes).

1 hour ago, Maktorius said:

That  duskblade is to expensive (either in cost or surg   e   s  ) 

You know a Reanimate block with vurenthul, fallen hero, CI seems like a deadly unit. Maybe still too expensive but killing a 2 tray of spined threshers in one blow would be so so sweet.

13 minutes ago, Xquer said:

but killing a 2 tray of spined threshers in one blow would be so so sweet.

It is very, very sweet. I've only done it once, but I plan to do it a whole lot more!

2 hours ago, Maktorius said:

-That Wraiths can't get rerolls or attack before being sliced.

You made lots of good points, but this is the one that stings the most. I bought 3 boxes, and I'm not wild about them. They look cool, so I'll enjoy painting them, but I think they would have been stellar in a tournament environment with Supply Raid, especially at 2x1's. Actually, they can probably earn their points in Demoralize Their Forces, but they just don't last long in combat, and they don't hit particularly hard. Like I said before, I'll need to really work with them to unlock their potential.

3 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

You made lots of good points, but this is the one that stings the most. I bought 3 boxes, and I'm not wild about them. They look cool, so I'll enjoy painting them, but I think they would have been stellar in a tournament environment with Supply Raid, especially at 2x1's. Actually, they can probably earn their points in Demoralize Their Forces, but they just don't last long in combat, and they don't hit particularly hard. Like I said before, I'll need to really work with them to unlock their potential.

This is a good observation, and might point to a disconnect between OP and the production/logistics folks, where OP may not have fully grasped the extended duration of the delay to release back when it was writing the Q2 scenario set at the beginning of the year (since the Q2 set was previewed with the Q1 regs). Actually, arguably earlier, since it looks like objectives and deployments stick around for a full 3 quarters before rotating out... does anybody remember whether our first tournament rules were released last fall or summer? If it was the fall, , Supply Raid was chosen as the one of the initial set to keep in longest, perhaps trying to hold out for a Wraiths release before it said goodbye. If it was the summer, then back in the fall the call was made to add Supply Raid with the timeline meaning it would rotate out mid-summer.

Or we're reading way too much into this, and it's just an unlucky coincidence.

Either way, the good news is that I don't think we've seen the last of new objectives that reward collecting spread-out tokens, and old objectives are likely to return to the tournament rotation at some point, too. Even if they don't, bringing back old favorites to play with new units sounds like a great format for local events!

On 8/10/2018 at 2:02 PM, Maktorius said:

Hmmm...

I'm not super thrilled about the restriction of putting other heroes in.

Firstly, Daqan and Uthuk (Kehtra) can combine a Heavy-brutal siege unit and a unique hero.

Secondly, I've been whining for a while about that Ankaur Maro infantry champion is too weak as it can't add trays to his own unit and that Ardus infantry champion is way too expensive. How many times have any of those builds been successfull in tournaments (that I know of, i.e. regionals and up)? 0! So would an extra bit of power (i.e. this card without the limitation) really be problematic? Getting WWR dice would definately make Ardus surge borrowing more likely to happen, and Lord Warebat would work as a deterrent for hunting down Ankuar infantry champion.

I've thought some more on the qouted question (which got some pushback).

Lets say that Heavy Lord Werebat DID NOT have the unique champ restriction, the most powerful build I can think of would be this (with input regarding the blighting from the pushbackers):

The thought is to get the 5-threat skeletonstar with WWR dice powered by Dispatch runner to hammer anything and being able to put on Blight on engaged enemies. The Triumphant cry is to get the unit engaged with new enemies as quickly as possible and Cursed signets is necessary to minimize the risk against Uthuk of being reformed or having a figure upgrade discarded by morale cards and against Latari to become immobilized and finally to not get stunned by the Dispatch runner.

Does anyone think this is overpowered and would blow through tournaments? It's potentially very powerful, but it looks to me that circumstances like terrain, small blockers, enemies dancing away, sniping, outflanking, fetch objectives etc IS probably effective weaknesses/ countermeasures. What do you think?

Would this build work at all without Lord Werebat and having Moment of inspiration instead? Is the difference really night and day (since noone is playing that and the Werebat one is clearly nerfed)?

4 hours ago, Maktorius said:

200/200

Reanimates [64] 4x3
Ardus IxErebus [23]
Vorunthul the Cursed [8]
Cursed Signets [2]
Triumphant Cry [3]
Total Unit Cost: 100

Death Knights [42] 2x2
Dispatch Runner [7]
Total Unit Cost: 49

Reanimate Archers [18] 2x1
Combat Ingenuity [6]
Total Unit Cost: 24

Carrion Lancers [27] 2x1
Total Unit Cost: 27

Does anyone think this is overpowered and would blow through tournaments? It's potentially very powerful, but it looks to me that circumstances like terrain, small blockers, enemies dancing away, sniping, outflanking, fetch objectives etc IS probably effective weaknesses/ countermeasures. What do you think?

I agree. I don't see this rolling through tournaments unimpeded. It's definitely scary to face that big block of Reanimates, and I think it would push enemy armies towards ranged units that can reliably score Accuracy results. Ardus is such a huge liability against such lists, basically offering your opponent a 23 point head start, which is a little sour. But as @Bhelliom pointed out in another thread, starting in October, two out of the three legal deployment cards specify only 2 pieces of terrain, making it fairly safe to bring out the big 12-tray Reanimates unit, and giving ranged units a little bit less in the way of hiding places.

Next question: without the restriction on the infantry version of Vorun'thul the Cursed, would the ability to also include Ardus result in less list diversity? I.e. would it make Ardus + Vorun'thul auto-include combo? At first I thought it would for sure. Two white dice and a red on a 5 threat unit sounds bonkers! It would roll everything it touches...but could it touch everything? An opponent would have to play very cautiously to avoid such a unit, while trying to pick off other elements of the army. Then I thought about the cost of Ardus. You're dumping a total of 31 points of figure upgrades on that block of infantry, which may not be worth it. On the other hand, if you're bringing Ardus anyway, a mere 8 points increases your threat by 1, and that does smell a little of auto-include combo to me.

5 hours ago, Maktorius said:

Would this build work at all without Lord Werebat and having Moment of inspiration instead? Is the difference really night and day (since noone is playing that and the Werebat one is clearly nerfed)?

I am going to cautiously answer "yes." But if I'm taking the 12-tray, you better believe I'm taking either Raven Standard Bearer or Lingering Dead to make sure I don't lose trays before I get to use them. In my opinion that's one of Waiqar's greatest strengths in the realm of so-called "death stars." The attrition of other large blocks of infantry is far less forgiving than it is for skeletons that can fight even when they're knocked down. With that in mind I would make the following changes using the points I save by not taking Vorun'thul the Cursed:

1. Lingering Dead on the Reanimates (3 points). I think Cursed Signets is too valuable to trade out here.
2. Rank Discipline on the Carrion Lancers (4 points).

That leaves 1 point leftover for a bid, which isn't bad. Of course, if you really wanted to use that point, I could see a use for putting that 1 point towards the Reanimates' heraldry slot for either Blighted Vexillum Bearer or Raven Standard Bearer. Just hope you don't run into a list that focuses on dumping banes like blight and immobilize tokens. (In other words, I don't think I'd ever use Moment of Inspiration on Reanimates).

----

Final thoughts. It seems that you and I both agree that combining Ardus and Vorun'thul would not be outright broken. I admit, I may be mistaken, so I look forward to others' thoughts. But if it's not balance, could it be a thematic choice? If so, it's a pretty weak one, but not out of the realm of possibility. The other thing I would look at is what effect this combo has on the 9-tray Reanimates unit, saving points and presenting a smaller footprint.