"When a friendly ship at range 0-1 performs a [torpedo] or [missile] attack, that ship may reroll up to 2 attack dice."

Barrage rockets very probably count as a [missile] attack, but pedants could argue they are a [missile][missile] attack and thus gain no benefit from Jonus' ability.

That would be silly though.

I'd argue it counts as two missile attacks so you may re-roll up to 4 attack dice

So here's the million galactic credit question, Which is better? Howlrunner TIE swarm or Captain Jonus Barrage Rocket swarm? I know the answer, but I'm sure the forum will have some opinions.

4 hours ago, Dengar5 said:

So here's the million galactic credit question, Which is better? Howlrunner TIE swarm or Captain Jonus Barrage Rocket swarm? I know the answer, but I'm sure the forum will have some opinions.

Depends on the distribution of ranges of engagements, plus the build for the swarms (Jonus especially), plus the target.

We'll ignore possible Talents for Howlrunner and Iden (or if Black Squadrons are used in lieu of Iden), since use of Crack Shot will drive the hits up). We'll assume a strafing run on a stationary zero agility ship for simplicity, and all ships take the Focus action (except at Range 1; I'll explain). Also, no charges are spent from Barrage Rockets. All ships are able to fire on the target at all times and all get their leader's ability when it applies. No bumping, out of arc, or overflying -- you're just that good of a pilot.

At Range 3, Jonus expects 14.0 hits vs Howlrunner's 10.1 (due to the range 3 bonus granted vs the TIE/lns but not the barrage rockets).

At Range 2, Jonus expects 14.0 hits vs Howlrunner's 12.7

At Range 1 it gets interesting:

Howlrunner expects 18.7 hits. If Jonus just has regular attack with focus, he expects only 11.2 hits. However, if you optimize his swarm for this scenario, three of his bombers load Advanced Proton Torpedoes as well and take locks (no focus), in which case he expects 15.75 hits. [In the unlikely event that he has lock + focus at the range 1 scenario (unlikely because he has been using his actions to focus for the rockets and has not been able to get the lock), his expected hits goes up to 18.2.]

So how often are you shooting at each range? If you expect a equal distribution of ranges (without losses), the Jonus/APT averages 14.5 hits vs Howlrunner's 14.5 ... dead equal (great balancing, there). But in a closing (not meeting) engagement, the interesting things is that because of the differences in their dials the TIE/ln's can't normally get three shots off without overflying their target, while the TIE/sa's can (glory to the 1-straight!).

Then there's durability ... Jonus has 30 hull behind 2 agility, Howlrunner has 21 behind 3 plus Iden's one save ... but without specifying an opponent I'm not going to run loss-exchange scenarios.

Between the two I'd prefer to fly the bombers -- because I love TIE bombers.

(Probability calcs via Gate of Storms: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/ )

Obviously Jonus is better, objectively

TIE Swarm relies on green dice to stay alive, Barrage Rockets enable Sat Salvo which counters green dice

Q.E.D

Round one the Bombers will do more damage, but the Fighters have a better dial after the initial joust.

How awesome is it that we are discussing how good Bombers are? It's like a wonderful dream, where Bombers are great and people are iffy on Dash.

11 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Round one the Bombers have will do more damage, but the Fighters have a better dial after the initial joust.

You say "fighters" like you'll still have more than one of them

3 hours ago, Dengar5 said:

So here's the million galactic credit question, Which is better? Howlrunner TIE swarm or Captain Jonus Barrage Rocket swarm? I know the answer, but I'm sure the forum will have some opinions.

Only one can take saturation salvo.

40 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Round one the Bombers will do more damage, but the Fighters have a better dial after the initial joust.

How awesome is it that we are discussing how good Bombers are? It's like a wonderful dream, where Bombers are great and people are iffy on Dash.

You think that's crazy? Wait till you try out Punishers...

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

You think that's crazy? Wait till you try out Punishers...

I like the look of the named Punishers, not sold on the generic though. I can get Jonus for the price of the Cutlass, and there is really no reason not to unless you really want trajectory simulator.

AqTrajectory Sims wil probably be game defining in this edition

But yeah, the named gents are where it's at. Deathrain is somehow even more fun than in 1st Ed

And Redline has so much potential, he's about the only place I'd bother with 5th bro

edit: well...maybe kestal...but she ain't nearly as cool

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

AqTrajectory Sims wil probably be game defining in this edition

The big problem here is that because of the medium base the Punisher is going to be eating it's own bombs unless it does a stop or a turn + boost.

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

edit: well...maybe kestal...but she ain't nearly as cool

FFG just seemed to give up on the Aggressor. It's just a worse Y-Wing now.

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

You think that's crazy? Wait till you try out Punishers...

Jonus + 3 Punishers, then ...

35 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

The big problem here is that because of the medium base the Punisher is going to be eating it's own bombs unless it does a stop or a turn + boost.

Haven't checked yet but after you launch a traj sim bomb with Deathrain you get a free action so maybe a barrel roll followed by either a white turn or the blue boost?

45 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

The big problem here is that because of the medium base the Punisher is going to be eating it's own bombs unless it does a stop or a turn + boost.

Ablative Plating!

also works on obstacle damage, so it's important to keep in mind

So 4 x Scimitar + Jonus with Barrage Rockets leaves 22 points to spare. You can afford Seismics + Skilled Bombardier or Proton Bombs on the Scimitars and still have two points for an EPT on Jonus.

5 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Obviously Jonus is better, objectively

TIE Swarm relies on green dice to stay alive, Barrage Rockets enable Sat Salvo which counters green dice

Q.E.D

4 hours ago, 6ixorganizer said:

Only one can take saturation salvo.

From my experience, Sat Salvo isn't that usefull. It's only marginally usefull if the opponent rolls 2 evade. Even against focus+evade, the odds are good to roll one more evade. Only super slippery ace with the likes of stealth device will fear this, and then they are as weak to that as to just rolling 3 well moded dice enough time for the greens to fail (they always do!).

I personally feel that the pilot upgrade + 6 points could be better spent elsewhere in the bomber list, like on bombs, for the turn where you WILL have to KTurn and you don't want to get caught by behind with your pants down (and your stress up).

Alternatively, praise GUNBOAT:

Jonus + Saturation Salvo + Barrage Rockets [48]
Gamma Squadron Ace + Sat Salvo + Rockets [42]
Rho Squadron Pilot + Sat Salvo + Rockets + Collision Detector + Os-1 [54]
Rho Squadron Pilot + Sat Salvo + Rockets + Collision Detector + Os-1 [54]

What's better than hammering people with rerolled Barrage Rockets backed by a Zuckuss effect? Doing it after jumping over rocks.

Just now, DarthSempai said:

From my experience, Sat Salvo isn't that usefull. It's only marginally usefull if the opponent rolls 2 evade. Even against focus+evade, the odds are good to roll one more evade. Only super slippery ace with the likes of stealth device will fear this, and then they are as weak to that as to just rolling 3 well moded dice enough time for the greens to fail (they always do!).

It's an upgrade that will get better the more copies of it you have. The first couple force tokens to be spent, then the others turn into crack shots.

How bout

Gamma Sq. + Sat salvo + Barrage x2

Jonus + Sat salvo + Barrage + Protorps

Jendon + Sloane + Tractor beam

That's 200 points, with guaranteed fully modded attacks, and disincentive for attacking your ships, and destroying the green dice defense of the enemy.

Plus, I only have 3 bombers

I'd argue for the value of a sixth ship instead of all barrage. Jonus can use Homing Missiles so you can use an academy TIE. That TIE is an effective range control tool, so you can skew the engagement towards range 2-3.

11 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

FFG just seemed to give up on the Aggressor. It's just a worse Y-Wing now.

The Aggressor always smelled of desperation, to me.

It's an absurdly awkward and ugly little TIE model, it's never appeared outside of SWG and it was created for that solely so that Imperials could get a ship as modular as they made the Rebel and Scum ships, so that they weren't left out of that particular progression mechanic.

FFG including it in XWM was them scraping the absolute bottom of the barrel, if you ask me. TLT had turned turrets from one of the most forgettable slots in the game to total dominance, and all of a sudden the Empire's lack of a decent carrier was a massive hole.

I know others will disagree, but frankly I wouldn't have minded if FFG just quietly dropped the Aggressor from the conversion kit.

2 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

I know others will disagree, but frankly I wouldn't have minded if FFG just quietly dropped the Aggressor from the conversion kit.

Isn’t this what they did?

14 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

The big problem here is that because of the medium base the Punisher is going to be eating it's own bombs unless it does a stop or a turn + boost.

FFG just seemed to give up on the Aggressor. It's just a worse Y-Wing now.

For what its worth, its the cheapest turret in the game for 2e. Coming in at 34 points for a Sienar Specialist w/ a Dorsal Turret. Of course a Gray Squadron w/ a dorsal is only marginally more expensive at 36 points. You have way less health, but you do get an extra agility, a linked action, and a better dial for your troubles. I don't think they will be used that much in 2e, but it does give the Empire some control elements with the ICT. For 36 points you can throw one into a list and give your opponent something to worry about.

Ah, yes, I remember when Palpatine didn't work in 1st Edition with [Crew] cards because he was [Crew][Crew].