8 hours ago, TallTonyB said:

At gen con Uthuk took 1st and 2nd, but there was 4 Uthuk that didn't even make top 6 out of 16.

Sure -- But by that token, half the top 6 was Uthuk. Oh, and #7. So 4 out of the top 7 were Uthuk. It was, at least, encouraging that the other 3 were all represented in the top half of the field like that, and that the overall numbers weren't as terribly skewed as they could have been. (it's not like 3/4s of the field brought Uthuk, just roughly half...)

51 minutes ago, kaffis said:

Sure -- But by that token, half the top 6 was Uthuk. Oh, and #7. So 4 out of the top 7 were Uthuk. It was, at least, encouraging that the other 3 were all represented in the top half of the field like that, and that the overall numbers weren't as terribly skewed as they could have been. (it's not like 3/4s of the field brought Uthuk, just roughly half...)

Regarding this, wouldn't a couple Uthuk mirror matches knock some of those players far enough down to not come back? I don't have the brackets, and it's completely possible that those Uthuk were swatted by all sorts of factions, but the possibility remains that Uthuk vs. Uthuk could prevent some Uthuk from advancing beyond swiss. Such matchups would leave us unable to use tournament standings to judge strength of factions (though all things considered, our community on the whole seems quite aware of the danger of Runewars tournaments' small sample sizes).

11 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

Regarding this, wouldn't a couple Uthuk mirror matches knock some of those players far enough down to not come back? I don't have the brackets, and it's completely possible that those Uthuk were swatted by all sorts of factions, but the possibility remains that Uthuk vs. Uthuk could prevent some Uthuk from advancing beyond swiss. Such matchups would leave us unable to use tournament standings to judge strength of factions (though all things considered, our community on the whole seems quite aware of the danger of Runewars tournaments' small sample sizes).

There was a surprising lack of Uthuk mirrors. If I remember correctly there were a couple, but not many and they were pretty close games. @Church14 or @tgall could elaborate more. Did you guys face any of the other Uthuk lists other than each other in the final?

1 hour ago, kaffis said:

Sure -- But by that token, half the top 6 was Uthuk. Oh, and #7. So 4 out of the top 7 were Uthuk. It was, at least, encouraging that the other 3 were all represented in the top half of the field like that, and that the overall numbers weren't as terribly skewed as they could have been. (it's not like 3/4s of the field brought Uthuk, just roughly half...)

I don't remember real well what the exact standings were because I really only paid close attention to the top 4 since that was the cut, but I think there was 2 Uthuk in the top 6, not 3. I could very well be wrong about that though. I really should have kept better records, but after the squad lists got thrown away accidently, I really didn't worry as much about it. (pairing names to lists was tough in my head with three Justins and a Dustin )

25 minutes ago, TallTonyB said:

There was a surprising lack of Uthuk mirrors. If I remember correctly there were a couple, but not many and they were pretty close games. @Church14 or @tgall could elaborate more. Did you guys face any of the other Uthuk lists other than each other in the final?

I played Latari, and Daqan only until the final.

I was 6th after Swiss, so top 6 was 3 Uthuk, 1 Daqan, 1 Waiqar, 1 Latari.

I played against three Latari (the faction that's been the hardest for me to handle as Uthuk, in my somewhat limited experience), and one Waiqar, so no mirror matches for me!

I have played two mirrors locally so far, with a 7-4 loss and an 8-3 win.

The field in that event was really small. I posted a caveat in one of these threads before making a longish post, that given what I see at the local tournament and casual scene, what I saw at the regional scene, and what I see in numbers at Worlds, Nationals, GenCon, you have to make cautious claims about the results. After all, did a really good player just happen to like a faction, leading to its dominance? And even more so in the Runewars local meta, did a couple of good players in various communities just lack enough practice to be ready for someone's surprise list at an international event like GenCon?

And comments of the sort "Look, people do badly with this faction" aren't much of an argument for anything, other than that some people can have a bad day. For the topic of the thread, "are the Uthuk too strong?" I think the meaningful results to look at are when players known to be skilled with a faction square off with each other. What were the results? How did they feel the game went? Do some match-ups feel uphill? To what extent? Is that something of the list that they've run, something of the match-up, or some general trend in the overall meta?

I think answering those questions for Runewars is difficult because we don't have a lot of breadth in the field. So for example, in Star Wars Armada a couple of years back when an entire crew showed up with exactly the same list and 6/8 and something like 20 of the top 30 were running the same basic archetype, there's an argument that something needed addressing, which FFG promptly did. That's reasonable in a field of 70-80. We don't know if we expanded that field of 16 to 70 or 80 if we'd see Uthuk take 2/3 to 3/4 of the top slots or not. For that matter, we only had one Waiqar player show up, but that's certainly not because there's any shortage of Waiqar players or a deficit in the Waiqar faction. And the one who did play put up a respectable and solid showing.

1 hour ago, TallTonyB said:

I don't remember real well what the exact standings were because I really only paid close attention to the top 4 since that was the cut, but I think there was 2 Uthuk in the top 6, not 3. I could very well be wrong about that though. I really should have kept better records, but after the squad lists got thrown away accidently, I really didn't worry as much about it. (pairing names to lists was tough in my head with three Justins and a Dustin )

I think enough of us are on the forums we can probably piece together most of the event if people remember their matchups and tournament points.

I played tgall first game to a 7-4 win, then I 4-7 lost to the Justin that got 7th, and then I got tabled hard by FranquesEnbiens (who placed 6th) for a 10-1, and I ended the day with the 4th round bye. (So I'm part of the reason there wasn't a lot of mirroring up, lol, taking 3 games of Uthuk all to myself)

8th place was a Latari player, I placed 9th with Latari as well.

1 hour ago, FranquesEnbiens said:

I was 6th after Swiss, so top 6 was 3 Uthuk, 1 Daqan, 1 Waiqar, 1 Latari.

I played against three Latari (the faction that's been the hardest for me to handle as Uthuk, in my somewhat limited experience), and one Waiqar, so no mirror matches for me!

I have played two mirrors locally so far, with a 7-4 loss and an 8-3 win.

Ah, thank you. So there was another uthuk in the top 6, I was mistaken about that.

If you don't mind giving away some of your "secrets" what is it that makes latari a bit more difficult against uthuk?

2 hours ago, TallTonyB said:

There was a surprising lack of Uthuk mirrors. If I remember correctly there were a couple, but not many and they were pretty close games. @Church14 or @tgall could elaborate more. Did you guys face any of the other Uthuk lists other than each other in the final?

I am slowly writing up a whole AAR, but the short is:

Game 1: 10-1 over 3 dial Daqan

Game 2: 8-3 over a synergy Daqan list (4th place after Swiss)

Game 3: 8-3 over Latari mixed bag list (2nd or 3rd after Swiss I think)

Game 4: 8-3 over Latari archer star list (Parakitor)

Top cut game 1: A 9-2-ish win over Waiqar

Finals: 6-5 Win over Uthuk (TGall). Really more of a 5.6-5.4 win

One guy brought my exact list because I’m the kind of shmuck who posts his tourney list before going to a tourney. In a nice ego-padding turn of events, my understanding is my game 3 opponent and Parakitor both beat that player.

12 minutes ago, Church14 said:

my understanding is my game 3 opponent and Parakitor both beat that player.

I think you are either confusing me with Dustin, the Waiqar player, or Tom or Aaron from the Runecasters. ? I wish I was there.

Just now, Parakitor said:

I think you are either confusing me with Dustin, the Waiqar player, or Tom or Aaron from the Runecasters. ? I wish I was there.

Aaron from rumecasters. I guess I had handles mixed up

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

I am slowly writing up a whole AAR, but the short is:

Game 1: 10-1 over 3 dial Daqan

Game 2: 8-3 over a synergy Daqan list (4th place after Swiss)

Game 3: 8-3 over Latari mixed bag list (2nd or 3rd after Swiss I think  ) 

Game 4: 8-3 over Latari archer star list (Parakitor  ) 

Top cut game 1: A 9-2-ish win over Waiqar

Finals: 6-5 Win over Uthuk (TGall). Really more of a 5.6-5.4 win 

One guy brought my exact list because I’m the kind of shmuck who posts his tourney list before going to a tourney. In a nice ego-padding turn of events, my understanding is my game 3 opponent and Parakitor both beat that player.

I think this is a schedule that says a lot. In six games, you've effectively got wins against the 2nd/3rd/4th/5th players from the end of the Swiss. And I think the final comment picks up the idea that it isn't just the list, it is the player.

And a lesson for anyone else who really wants to get good. Most of the good players have a couple of buddies where they work out the finer details of the game. For example, I just managed to beat myself 7-4 tonight with my latest Latari list versus your Uthuk list. That's not to say that the new list is a bad list and a tough match-up, but I can learn two things in the process: 1. What I can't do on deployment and movement/maneuvering. 2. What I might have to think about unit upgrades and composition. It sounds like you had quite the experiments with your buddies on Leonx versus Spined Threshers, and for anyone that hasn't looked at the game in that level of depth, there's a huge advantage there.

38 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

And a lesson for anyone else who really wants to get good. Most of the good players have a couple of buddies where they work out the finer details of the game.

This I feel is true also. @Church14 and @Jukey are constantly playing together and posting battle reports using all different types of lists and factions.

For most of this year, I've only had the opportunity to really play against Latari frequently. This is because in tournaments I only ever got placed against them and also two of my buddies that I play with also play Latari.

My Daqan buddy has not been playing for months now so I am out of practice against them.

However, @Viktus106 has recently picked up Uthuk. He is undefeated with them and I have also played against him twice. You're always going to learn more from experience than you are just reading about stuff and so I feel I've learnt more in playing against him in those two matches than I have by reading things on here.

After the game we talked about the ifs and buts of the match and how it could've turned out differently because there were a couple of things that could've maybe even swung the battle in my favour (I play as Waiqar).

Uthuk are very good at what they do and it can be overwhelming, but once you take the time to learn about what trade-offs will suit you the best when planning your engagements and the synergy of certain units and how to make them redundant, you can start to see light at the end of the tunnel!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you practice and learn enough, you'll eventually know how to win against most things. The only real test is remembering what all the enemy dials in a tournament who you dont have the official rules documents/references or whatever for

2 hours ago, Church14 said:

One  guy brought  my exact list because I’m the kind of shmuck   who posts his tourney list before going to a tourney. In a nice ego   -      padding  turn of events, my understanding  is my game  3 opponent and Parakitor both beat that player.                  

38 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

I think      this is a schedule that says a lot. In six games, you've effectively got wins against the 2nd/3rd/4th/5th players from the end of the Swiss. And I think the final comment picks up the idea that it isn't just the list, it is the player.  

This is a good point. As someone who plays Church regularly, I am realizing I've only ever faced two other uthuk players once each, both of whom I managed to defeat.

My perception of how powerful they are may be drastically off center due to facing the (alleged) master of the demon hordes on a weekly basis.

I think it is fair to say that uthuk are a strong faction with a very strong presence in the current meta of the game, even more so in the right players hands. They're on top now, I'm not so sure that they'll still be on top in quarter 3 and 4 this year.

I'm very curious to see what impact the new units have on the tournament scene. The data we have currently is from a meta which was supposed to change over 6 months ago.

This forum really helps spread the panic about Uthuk, it really does. :)

If you read these forums regularly the first thing you pick up on is that Uthuk are WAY too strong, never lose, every unit is OP, undercosted and if you play against them, you may as well turn around, bend over and prey they go gentle. Whats more, Keth'ra is going to demonstrate UNLIMITED POWAH and prove that she is the daughter of Emperor Palpatine and Gorgemaw is going to do stuff to your army in such a way that even the most devote Hentai artist would blush.

Now when you finally hit the table against Uthuk, you have that mindset. Instead of thinking on how you can win, your train of thought is actually "How can I not lose so badly." That right there, causes more damage than Ravos in range 1 of an entire army and it just gets worse from there.

It's thematic I guess, the Ynnfernal horde is actually spreading fear and dread throughout the realms, they seem unstoppable and everyone is crying out for a hero to step forward and be the ultimate counter. People are preying that Ursarkar E. Creed himself jumps universes and brings his Tactical Genius to the fore and stops the tide dead in its tracks. Well . . that isn't going to happen.

The reality is, Uthuk do lose. They can lose. They can be outplayed. They can be played badly. Not every engagement goes their way and they can be held back however, that won't happen until people change their mindset and actually try something different.

I would have lost against @Zaaik 's Waiqar if one thing had gone differently. ONE. It all came down to his 2 x 2 Deathknights missing my 3 x 2 Berserker unit by an inch. AN INCH!! If he had landed that, he would have smashed two/three trays off me and my dial reveal would have been wasted. Instead, what actually happened was I charged HIM and then done 15 points of damage and gained 20 objective points. (Red Hit, Red Hit, Blue Hit + Reaver with two moral icons + Serrated Spines with two runes active + two sacrifices)

Had he of charged me, the combination of his Reanimate Archers and Death Knights would have removed my Berserkers in two turns and I doubt I would have even swung, which would then meant that his Death Knights would flank my Flesh Rippers (earning 20 points) and threaten the flank of my entire army. His Archers would have killed Ravos and/or stopped him from chewing through the Reanimate block which in turn would have meant that Ardus would have had 1 wound left because the only way he was taking damage when fighting my Flesh Rippers was thanks to Ravos and his hunger aura.

That right there, that ONE mistake is what made the game a 9 - 2 win for me.

I think that identifying WHERE the match was lost/won is more useful then just convincing yourself that Uthuk are OP and it's a done deal.

55 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

It all came down to his 2 x 2 Deathknights missing my 3 x 2 Berserker unit by an inch. AN INCH!!

It did all come down to this! But it was less than an INCH! An inch is actually pretty huge, its not a literal inch, but seriously the charge missed by the smallest of margins, you could've fit a sticky note in there or something and it would've fit perfectly.

That happened like turn 2? And that kind of set the precedent for the rest of the battle. If the charge had pulled off, I'd inevitably killed the Berserkers quick enough to then have opportunities to flank Ravos, Flesh Rippers, and a unit of Threshers, which would've won me the game.

Other things I have learnt is that Ravos does indeed struggle against 1|1 infantry. (Especially 3x2 Renaimates with Necromancer and Lingering Dead).

Shield or Margath might be your friend against Uthuk as they don't like high armour, and they're all low armour so even surviving a melee attack can kill atleast 1 Flesh Ripper, 4 Berserkers, 2 wounds on Ravos/Threshers (I know thats easier said than done, but they could whiff their dice!)

They really don't like banes.

Spread out - Ravos and Kethra's abilities do damage to other units that are within 1 range (ravos) or 1-2 range (Kethra) I believe, which can feel like a really cheap way to lose a hero of your own when straight wounds are being consistently done without you even being in combat with Ravos or Kethra.

Again, these things may be easier said than done but its just what I felt like I learnt during my last game.

Also one thing that cannot be helped is just how hot the dice are during the battle. @Viktus106 's dice left scorch marks all over my table they were that hot. So as always... some luck does come into these things.

1 hour ago, Viktus106 said:

If you read these forums regularly the first thing you pick  up on is that Uthuk are WAY too strong, never lose, every unit is OP, undercosted and if you play against them  , you may as well turn around, bend over and prey they go  gentle. Whats more, Keth'ra is going to demonstrate  UNLIMITED POWAH and prove that she is the daughter of Emperor Palpatine and Gorgemaw is  going to do stuff to your army in such a way that even the most devote Hentai artist would blush.

Wow, I've missed those parts. From what I've seen it's the Spined thresher unit and Ravos' unique upgrades that are getting people, myself included, wound up. I won't repeat my posts regarding them (see earlier in this thread if interested), but it amazes me that anyone can say "nothing too see here folks!" when it comes to them.

1 hour ago, Viktus106 said:

The reality is, Uthuk do lo  se. They can lose. They can be     outplayed  . They can be played  badly. Not every engagement  goes  their way and they can be held back

If this was not the case the game would be totally broken. As with the statement above, you might be overinterpreting (or it is me that is underinterpreting), the issue for me is that the game feels weighted towards Uthuk (and I don't seem to be alone), and I think it is quite observable even by just reading their frekkin' unit cards, unique upgrades and dials

2 hours ago, Maktorius said:

Wow, I've missed those parts. From what I've seen it's the Spined thresher unit and Ravos' unique upgrades that are getting people, myself included, wound up. I won't repeat my posts regarding them (see earlier in this thread if interested), but it amazes me that anyone can say "nothing too see here folks!" when it comes to them.

If this was not the case the game would be totally broken. As with the statement above, you might be overinterpreting (or it is me that is underinterpreting), the issue for me is that the game feels weighted towards Uthuk (and I don't seem to be alone), and I think it is quite observable even by just reading their frekkin' unit cards, unique upgrades and dials

I'm just trying to reassure people that Uthuk are not disgustingly broken and just appear to be the current salt generator as they are the new and shiny army. Latari had it when they were released and it will circle back round eventually.

I admit that Uthuk have their strengths and those are more easily recognized but I don't think the game favors them in the long term. More units will be released and the salt will change once more.

Also, as Zaaik demonstrated expertly to me yesterday, a Spined Thresher or Berserker unit that has two blight every turn cannot do ANYTHING and isn't worth the plastic that it represents. In fact, I'm willing to go on record and say that as a Uthuk player, blight. . . . . . . . is the bane of my existence.

7 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

I admit  that Uthuk have their strengths and those are more easily recognized but I don't think the game favours them in the long term. More units will be released      and the salt will more       .              

Yay for powercreep!

Would  the Threshers fall totally flat if they didn't have a semi-free reroll? Or if they did not have hit+morale on the same modifier selection? Or if they hit at init 5 like the other siege units? Or if they only had 4 wounds? AND if their unique upgrades costed 8 instead of 3? I do not think  so  .  

9 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

Also  , as Zaaik demonstrated expertly to me yesterday  , a Spined Threster or Berserker unit that has two blight every turn cannot do ANYTHING and isn't worth the plastic that it represents. In fact, i'm willing to go on record  and say  that as a  Uthuk  player, blight. . . . . . . .is the bane of my existence  .     

Well, this goes for all infantry and Rune golems too. So I would not call that an Uthuk weakness ?

You know the power creep is going to be strong in this game, it is with most games FFG put out. You would think that they learnt their lesson with Netrunner, Armada or X wing, I guess not.

I agree that ST are the strongest siege unit presently. They are the most consistent with damage (access to a single re-roll if panic available) and their effective health doesn't change regardless of runes and dials however their upgrade options are limited going forward. They only have a unique slot (assuming no serious investment, but then you only gain a champion) whilst others have access to Equipment/Unique/Banners, etc. One Rune Golem only card could change the winds very quickly I believe.

Now we also know that Waiqur have a new siege unit on the horizon due to Lord Vol having a siege champion upgrade in his pack. How much you wanna bet that whatever that will be will smash ST off the top ? It will likely be something crazy and have Precise 1, Resilient {Panic} and Scout and still roll two red dice. Knowing Waiqur though, base will be 20 points or something.

I'm confident that whilst ST are on top right now, they won't be next year when the second lot of Siege units drop or more Training/Equipment/Banner cards are released.

4 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

You know the power creep is going to be strong in this game, it is with most games FFG put out. You would think that they learnt their lesson with Netrunner, Armada or X wing, I guess not.

But I actually don't mind it in this game surprisingly. I think it's actually thematic. The Uthuk are the unnumbered horde from the Ru Darklands that attacked when the others have already been fighting each other for a while. This shifts everyones meta game focus to them, just like the focus of the factions would have to shift from their inbattles to face the new, greater threat. I'm stoked about the results of GenCon and how they've impacted the game.

4 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

I'm confident that whilst ST are on top right now, they won't be next year when the second lot of Siege units drop or more Training/Equipment/Banner cards are re  leased.

True! And I think there will always be ways to use the base units due to new upgrades, how units work together, etc.

What a great game. I'm more focused on what is awesome and upcoming and what they've done so so well with this game than on the occasional Shame Upgrades.

3 hours ago, Viktus106 said:

This forum really helps spread the panic about Uthuk, it really does.

If you read these forums regularly the first thing you pick up on is that Uthuk are WAY too strong, never lose, every unit is OP, undercosted and if you play against them, you may as well .. .

...yeeeah, I admit I'm guilty here. I've beaten Uthuk once, and I rationalized that it was just because it was an atypical build. But in truth, it was because I had good deployment and put my brother's forces in a tough position. The other games where I lost may have had more to do with my bad positioning than Uthuk's power level. Maybe.

I do want to share one anecdote. My 12-tray Reanimates were getting stunned and immobilized by Berserkers with Corruption Rune. I finally lost my last Immobilize, and I saw that his Threshers unit was going to scuttle into my Reanimates' flank. I read it clearly, so I dialed a shift which would disengage me from the Spined Threshers, while at the same time engaging with nearby Flesh Rippers that were tangling with a Carrion Lancer. Unfortunately, his Berserkers put out another immobilize token on my Reanimates before their initiative 7 shift! Ack! If I had connected with the Flesh Rippers, I'd have easily been able to wipe them out, and then reform with Triumphant Cry to face the Spined Threshers (and the rest of his army on that side of the field). That Immobilize was so demoralizing, making me feel like even when I know what to do, Uthuk are too strong. In reality, it was a Corruption Rune thing, not Uthuk, but I lumped it into the same "Uthuk OP; plz nerf!" mindset.

11 hours ago, TallTonyB said:

Ah, thank you. So there was another uthuk in the top 6, I was mistaken about that.

If you don't mind giving away some of your "secrets" what is it that makes latari a bit more difficult against uthuk?

In my experience so far, the Latari I have played against have had a few things that I found difficult:

-Small quantities of damage (2-4 at a time), but lots of it. It might not seem like a lot, but that can wear down Uthuk if used well.

-Fire Rune archers: this actually does a good bit of damage as well. And while you are helping the Uthuk somewhat by flipping to double red, you are also putting an extra wound on a Thresher or Ravos every time you shoot.

If you can hold the unit up for a bit, for example, a single 2x1 Deepwoods with Fire Rune will do 2-4 wounds per shot on a Thresher or Ravos, so the ability to focus fire if you set up well is actually scary.

-Scions, while less effective against Uthuk (so many ways to get around Immobilize), can still be decent blockers. I have had games where Scions held up a Thresher or Ripper (or even Ravos) unit longer than I expected, which can be enough to chip that extra damage in and weaken them significantly.

-Latari does MSU well, so they can get that consistent small damage that is much scarier to low armor, high wound units, and potentially just grind you down.

-They also have some tricks: Maegan's abilities, Metered March Leonx, and some of their unexplored (locally for me) upgrades, as well as Lay of the Land now, and some units coming that look strong.

If you are looking to build an army tailor-built to defeat Uthuk, I think you can do it with Latari quite well( @Zetan and I tested that theory, and found it to work) - the real question is how that fares against the field.

I have also had games where I have rolled over Latari, so it really depends on the build, deployment, objective, all that stuff. I think they require you to play really well and carefully, because if your deployment is bad or your setup collapses, Uthuk just hits harder. If Uthuk deploys well and plays aggressively, it shifts the burden to the Latari player to weather the attack and just start working away at it. Part of it, I think, is knowing you'll take some losses and being patient, and figuring out how you get to the turning point where you can push ahead.

What also doesn't help is that Uthuk are fast, silly fast and the current deployments kind of favour that.

Unprepared 100% means a turn 1 charge if the Uthuk player wants it.

Standoff has two peices of terrain which if done currently can really help a Uthuk player scuttle out of and charge on turn 2.

Careful Approach is the worst one out of the three for Uthuk I think but even then, the terrain can be pushed out of the way.

Maybe next rotation they won't favour us so much.