So this thread isn't meant as a down and gloom, the game is garbage now. I'm curious as to other players thoughts on the Uthuk, who seem really strong right now. I've played against them using Daqan and Waiqar. I've eeked out a win or two with Daqan, but they were hard fought battles. Most of my losses though have been crushing, I can only think of a game or two that went the full 8 rounds.

My concerns is that they are way faster, in certain deployments Over had them cross the board and charge me turn 1. They hit like TWO tons of bricks. And from what I've read on Kethra (I'll likely be playing against her tomorrow) with a perfect dice roll and upgrades she can kill something like 4 trays of 1/1 infantry a round. ?

So I would love to hear from both those that play Uthuk and play against them on this topic. And I beg of this great community, let's keep it on topic and not hate troll at all.

I think they're very combat-oriented, and using range and outmaneuvring them is usually the best plan. A straight-up brawl is exactly what they want, and you should avoid that if at all possible.

3 minutes ago, Tarquillaman3285 said:

They're totally balanced. Trust me, I definitely don't best you with them every week.

Honestly you beat me more often then not. I'm not saying playing Uthuk is an "easy button" to winning, but they're hard to play against. They're making me REALLY think hard on list building and also taking more times on my turn to try and find an advantage against them.

1 minute ago, Darkjawa said:

Honestly you beat me more often then not. I'm not saying playing Uthuk is an "easy button" to winning, but they're hard to play against. They're making me REALLY think hard on list building and also taking more times on my turn to try and find an advantage against them.

I'm just busting your stones. I think their simplicity makes them relatively easy to play compared to other armies.

I think the difficulty right now is the Uthuk are able to force other factions to “play the Uthuk game” while none of the others have things to disrupt that Uthuk plan and force them to play the non-Uthuk game. Uthuk want to close quickly and engage, and in most fights unless it’s a total mismatch they have a pretty strong advantage in a straight slugfest. I’ve also never thought Uthuk struggled with mobility AT ALL. Hungry Ravos can track down virtually any hero/high armor unit, bezerkers init3 reform is outstanding, rippers can launch like a missile, and scuttling horror was a buff threshers did not need whatsoever.

Time will tell if the new releases help counter many of these things, off the top of my head the best contenders will be Pathfinder, LotL, and MAYBE wraiths passing through, but probably not.

I think it’s also important to consider right now for competitive play, the deployments and objectives are great for Uthuk, so this only doubles down on the feeling of Uthuk domination. None of the objectives require capturing (at least not for actual points), unprepared is onesided for everyone but for Uthuk it definitely can get close to auto-win. And anything over 0sized terrain further helps catapult Uthuk around, as I think Uthuk also excel with 1 and 2 tray units.

ive beaten Uthuk plenty of times, mostly with Daqan, so I definitely don’t think it’s impossible, or that Uthuk is overpowered, but it usually does feel like an uphill battle.

3 hours ago, jcshep19 said:

ive beaten Uthuk plenty of times, mostly with Daqan, so I definitely don’t think it’s impossible, or that Uthuk is overpowered, but it usually does feel like an uphill battle. 

Having played Star Wars Armada for three years now, I remember saying these kinds of things regarding my own list vis-a-vis the dominant meta for nearly two years. I've come to recognize that feeling of "uphill" battle as an intuitive sense that something is probably wrong. Now, FFG has historically addressed imbalance problems through the release cycle. I have a sense that Wraiths and Scouts are a response to Latari winning worlds last year, and to Latari dominance in pre-Uthuk days. Lay of the Land might have been an adjustment in the cycle to put something on the table thematically for Latari to help them make Uthuk charges miss, but it is hard to say.

I’m very interested to see if Seasoned Pathfinder can disrupt the Uthuk game by projecting a flanking threat. That and Wraiths being able to out maneuver their charges. It may be interesting

4 hours ago, jcshep19 said:

Time will tell if the new releases help counter many of these things, off the top of my head the best contenders will be Pathfinder, LotL, and MAYBE wraiths passing through, but probably not.

Yeah, Wraiths have felt pretty underwhelming so far. Having no rerolls is awful, and the double melee is meant to counted that weakness, but it happens at initiative 6, which pretty much means the attack never happens against Uthuk. I'm so used to Lingering Dead Reanimates, so even if I get attacked on the flank first, I'll be able to but back because we're still engaged. But Wraiths lose trays like trees lose leaves in Autumn, and suddenly we're not engaged, and the double melee whiffs.

That's not even considering the fact that if you're close enough to pass through enemy units, you're close enough to be charged by Uthuk. I'll have to experiment with them a bit more, but I strongly suspect Reanimates and their bow and arrow wielding kin are the stronger answers. Because Heraldry figures.

32 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Yeah, Wraiths have felt pretty underwhelming so far. Having no rerolls is awful, and the double melee is meant to counted that weakness, but it happens at initiative 6, which pretty much means the attack never happens against Uthuk. I'm so used to Lingering Dead Reanimates, so even if I get attacked on the flank first, I'll be able to but back because we're still engaged. But Wraiths lose trays like trees lose leaves in Autumn, and suddenly we're not engaged, and the double melee whiffs.

That's not even considering the fact that if you're close enough to pass through enemy units, you're close enough to be charged by Uthuk. I'll have to experiment with them a bit more, but I strongly suspect Reanimates and their bow and arrow wielding kin are the stronger answers. Because Heraldry figures.

Yeah when I use Waiqar I’ve now started every list with a 3x2 archers w/ raven banner and tempered steel, that init 7 shift and rally is outstanding for building up tokens. Yeah I’m not holding my breath on the wraiths, especially with how easy Uthuk counter flanks. SH to shift away from the sides, and init3 reform and rally for bezerkers.

I seriously think that initiative 3 reform for the bezerkers is a bigger problem than warsprinter is. Because outside of the attack from a flank charge, that bezerkerstar can reform before most things can attack the next round outside of a handful of units w/ initiative or Hawthorne/Ardus. A wraithstepping Kari is the only unit I’ve ever gotten to truly take advantage of a flanker on bezerkers for more than 1 attack, and that doesn’t really count because I destroyed the rest of the back rank, then chose not to close in and ranged attack the next turn.

2 hours ago, Vergilius said:

I have a sense that Wraiths and Scouts are a response to Latari winning worlds last year, and to Latari dominance in pre-Uthuk days.

Wraiths and scouts were ready before worlds last year. And not to take anything away from some amazing players, but the dominance of them was because they were new. I had never played against them before worlds. After worlds I rarely lost to them.

In my opinion Uthuk is strong right now, but not nearly so strong as to require anything to be changed. They just play a very different game than the other factions, and people are still getting used to that. No other faction wants to sprint across the battle field straight into the jaws of the enemy like they do. People are used to taking a turn to shift, really, or reform. Uthuk just don't let you have that luxury.

1 hour ago, TallTonyB said:

In my opinion Uthuk is strong right now, but not nearly so strong as to require anything to be changed. They just play a very different game than the other factions, and people are still getting used to that. No other faction wants to sprint across the battle field straight into the jaws of the enemy like they do. People are used to taking a turn to shift, really, or reform. Uthuk just don't let you have that luxury.

Just speaking personally, but I feel we’re past the “people are still learning how to deal with Uthuk” phase. I play with and against all four factions, and I feel strongly that there is a problem with one faction being very strong at something and being able to force all the other factions to play that game without enough strong counter-play existing. If it was last Wednesday and in a vacuum, I’d say something would need to change, although not drastically.

As it is I’m optimistic scouts/pathfinder will be enough to let Daqan hold their own against Uthuk, and that Darnati/LotL will do the same for Latari, though I’m worried you’ll still have to invest all in with Wind tune to really make LotL work strongly (I’m initially trying without wind rune, but don’t know if it’ll be enough). I don’t think there’s enough for Waiqar this wave, but Vorunthul looks strong later.

like I said not on the nerf train yet, think there’s real possibility with some of these new units and cards (especially once we get to next wave) but there ARE problems out there, not just inexperience.

2 hours ago, TallTonyB said:

Wraiths and scouts were ready before worlds last year. And not to take anything away from some amazing players, but the dominance of them was because they were new. I had never played against them before worlds. After worlds I rarely lost to them.

In my opinion Uthuk is strong right now, but not nearly so strong as to require anything to be changed. They just play a very different game than the other factions, and people are still getting used to that. No other faction wants to sprint across the battle field straight into the jaws of the enemy like they do. People are used to taking a turn to shift, really, or reform. Uthuk just don't let you have that luxury.

When you say wraiths and scouts.. are you saying you were proxying them?

2 hours ago, TallTonyB said:

In   my     opinion Uthuk is strong right now, but not nearly so strong as to require anything to be changed. They just play a very different game than the other factions, and people are still getting used to that. No other fa  ction wants to sprint across the battle field straight into the jaws of the enemy like they do. People are used to taking a turn to shift, really, or ref  orm. Uthuk just don't let you have that luxury.    

I've mentioned this in a different thread, but I rarely try to rush my opponent on turn one with my locust swarm. I usually play a shifty maneuver game the first 2 turns. That rush-in-your-face play style is only one way to play them and is not the only reason for their dominance.

13 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

I've mentioned this in a different thread, but I rarely try to rush my opponent on turn one with my locust swarm. I usually play a shifty maneuver game the first 2 turns. That rush-in-your-face play style is only one way to play them and is not the only reason for their dominance.

So much truth!

9 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

I've mentioned this in a different thread, but I rarely try to rush my opponent on turn one with my locust swarm. I usually play a shifty maneuver game the first 2 turns. That rush-in-your-face play style is only one way to play them and is not the only reason for their dominance.

Oh of course. I'm not saying it's the only reason, I'm saying that's why most players have trouble with them. Once people get used to dealing with that, their "dominance" will come back down to earth. They are strong, but not even close to too strong.

3 hours ago, TallTonyB said:

Oh of course. I'm not saying it's the only reason, I'm saying that's why most players have trouble with them. Once people get used to dealing with that, their "dominance" will come back down to earth. They are strong, but not even close to too strong.

I still feel that they are powerful, but you may have a point. That rush ability is still just as useful on round 3 or 4 (or any round) as on round 1.

8 hours ago, TallTonyB said:

Oh of course. I'm not saying it's the only reason, I'm saying that's why most players have trouble with them. Once people get used to dealing with that, their "dominance" will come back down to earth. They are strong, but not even close to too strong.

You are probably familiar with the abundant discussions on this topic. But I'm interested to hear, when you so decisivly state that "they are not even close to too strong", what your thoughts are on the power level of Spined threshers is compared to what the other factions have for an equal cost? To me more precise, let's say the 2x1 with scuttling horror?

On 8/5/2018 at 11:06 AM, Tarquillaman3285 said:

I think they're very combat-oriented, and using range and outmaneuvring them is usually the best plan. A straight-up brawl is exactly what they want, and you should avoid that if at all possible.

What are your thoughts on our maneuvering an opponent who is faster than you and had options available on nearly unit to ignore immobilize, choose whether or not to turn before moving, and otherwise react at time of activation when their opponent has to predict future board states when planning how to out maneuver Uthuk?

I mean, it sounds good on paper until you realize that Uthuk maneuver very well already, and get to make their choices nearer to the time of action than the other contender for "the maneuverable faction".

6 minutes ago, Maktorius said:

You are probably familiar with the abundant discussions on this topic. But I'm interested  to hear, when you so decisivly state that "they are not even close to too strong", what           your thoughts are on the power level of Spined threshers is compared to what the other factions have for an equal cost? To me more precise, let's say  the 2x1  with scuttling  horror        ?

3x1 xbows with ranked discipline/tempered steel, comes pretty close for 3 points more. Being ranged is also nice.

While its not exactly the same dmg, the output is is pretty close for similar points

1 hour ago, Panzerninja said:

3x1 xbows with ranked discipline/tempered steel, comes pretty close for 3 points more. Being ranged is also nice.

While its not exactly the same dmg, the output is is pretty close for similar points

In my book they are indeed the second best unit currently available at that cost level. But one big difference is that the ST's can do all the lifting themselves, the xbows needs friends to block incoming units, which ups the cost for an "effective build". I.e. they have a real weakness. Just put those two against each other in a isolated duel and see who comes out on top every time.

Edit:

And don't tell me that "only" 2 armour with 5 hp is a real weakness, or that their movement is the worst in the Uthuk army and that just sucks ; )

1 hour ago, Panzerninja said:

3x1 xbows with ranked discipline/tempered steel, comes pretty close for 3 points more. Being ranged is also nice.

While its not exactly the same dmg, the output is is pretty close for similar points

I guess this is similar to what Maktorius is saying, but yeah. 3x1 Crossbows are much squishier than Spined Threshers. They can fire to a wider variety of targets and maybe have a bit more damage output to help make it up, but you almost always have to invest in some blockers for cross bows or have some well-positioned terrain.

Honestly for me, Spined Threshers are a problem to deal with because they aren't especially susceptible to wounds, they have a ton of raw "HP" (at least 10) per tray, and they're usually fielded in small groups so you can't use your anti-deathball tactics against them. Being so durable removes most of the major pitfalls of running them in small formations.

You compare them to other faction's siege units and all those tend to have some obvious weakness. Rune Golems are VERY vulnerable to wounds and only have good initiative to charge on some turns. Carrion Lancers are also fairly susceptible to wounds, and they don't generally do much damage to 1-armor targets. Amyhelin Scions lack much durability (but are fairly cheap) and their main strength is as a tarpit unit, you simply engage with small to medium units or use range against them. Spined Threshers though.... I have yet to identify their true weakness. Their dials can be a little slow if you hit them with a quick initiative unit (Raven Tabards Death Knights can out charge them), but they have enough durability that they can often take a charge fairly well.

Am I missing the big weakness here? I'm not crying that they're OP, by the way, I've just found them to be a more problematic threat to deal with than other Uthuk units, but that might just be me.

10 hours ago, Panzerninja said:

3x1 xbows with ranked discipline/tempered steel, comes pretty close for 3 points more. Being ranged is also nice.

While its not exactly the same dmg, the output is is pretty close for similar points

Good comparison. Let's analyze this one a little more. They have the same threat and differ only by 3 points. However, that difference includes 2 upgrades on the Heavy Crossbowmen compared to 1 upgrade on the Spined Threshers. But if we remove the upgrades, we have only a single-point difference with 3 trays of Heavy Crossbowmen at 27 and 2 trays of Spined Threshers at 28, so let's start with that before moving on.

Both units have 3 threat, as I mentioned above. However Spined Threshers roll 2 red compared to the Heavy Crossbowmen's 1 red 1 blue. That gives the Spined Threshers slightly higher damage output based on raw dice, but Spined Threshers also get to dial in the hit if they are engaged. On the other hand, Heavy Crossbowmen can add a mortal strike at range 1-3. In my opinion, thay mortal strike is balanced with the difference in raw dice because it is consistent and not random, but it is also generally less useful since most units suffer a wound with a hit since Heavy Crossbowmen have a threat of 3. But the ability to bypass high armor has its uses. Then we get to the modifier. The surge is useless without upgrades, but the Spined Threshers' hit/morale is very powerful. The difference is that one unit is ranged, so has potential to attack more. Before we can leave the damage output descussion, we musn't forget the reroll from panic tokens for Spined Threshers. That drastically increases the power of their dice, making them much more likely to get hits. Lastly, it's worth pointing out that Heavy Crossbowmen have a very good melee attack. With their hit modifier, they natively hit harder, though slightly slower, than Spearmen. However, they miss out on that mortal strike and don't have the morale symbol of the Spined Threshers, making them still hit a little softer. [I thought they rolled red blue in melee, too, so my analysis here was way off.] So far, the Spined Threshers seem to win out.

Next, let's look at health. Spined Threshers have 10 wound threshold compared to the 12 wound threshold of the Heavy Crossbowmen, but the Spined Threshers have defense of 2 while the Heavy Crossbowmen have a defense of 1 with Protected 1. So on each attack, one wound against the Heavy Crossbowmen is behind 2 defense while all Spined Thresher wounds are behind 2 defense. So it will take 20 damage to one-shot a 2x1 Spined Threshers unit while it only takes 13 damage to one-shot a 3x1 Heavy Crossbowmen unit. If a unit were attacking these two with 2 threat, rolling 1 hit each attack, it would take 10 rounds to kill the Spined Threshers compared to 12 rounds for the Heavy Crossbowmen. Outside of that very narrow situation, the Spined Threshers appear to have the better defense. Furthermore, defense protects against plink damage from surge abilities that do not add damage to the damage pool while Protected 1 does not.

Mobility-wise, the Spined Threshers move much further, much earlier. That doesn't matter much to the Crossbowmen, though, since they are ranged units. However, the Spined Threshers miraculously get a turning charge that is missing from Berserkers and Flesh Rippers. As far as movement, the Heavy Crossbowmen can inch forward, trying to get into that range 1-3 sweet spot, but then they risk getting charged. They don't have the tools to fire while retreating, which could be useful, but they're decent in Melee anyway. Spined Threshers, however, possess all the movement they really need.

So, what do the upgrades add? Rank Discipline gives the Heavy Crossbowmen better rerolls than the Spined Threshers with a cost difference of 3. In other words, 3 points allows them to reroll both dice while Spined Threshers have a single roll that can get countered by rally and inspiration. Tempered Steel allows them to get a hit from the surge modifier. It akso means that in melee, they have even greater chances to get hits than Spined Threshers (I think). The trouble is getting Tempered Steel readied, which makes that extra damage less consistent, whether in melee or shooting at range. So making the Heavy Crossbowmen 6 points more expensive gives them a slight edge over the Spined Threshers.

When Spined Threshers add Scuttling Horror, they still cost 3 less than the Heavy Crossbowmen and can now stun (perhaps increasing survivability, though this upgrade does exhaust and suffers like Tempered Steel), and can shift sideways after command tools are placed for some major shenanigans.

On raw efficiency, naked Spined Threshers still seem pretty good compared to Heavy Crossbowmen.

The whole point was to compare what other faction had stuff on a similar power level.

I never said that that either would win in a 1v1 fight. Both groups of units are going to smash anything that gets in its threat range

5 minutes ago, Panzerninja said:

The whole point was to compare what other faction had stuff on a similar power level.

I never said that that either would win in a 1v1 fight.

I don't think anyone is doing that. I'm comparing them 1:1, but I intentionally kept my comparison open to fighting other units. I'm comparing what each has, but not assuming they are using those tools against each other. What I am saying is that Heavy Crossbowmen are powerful, in general, but don't quite match the raw power of Spined Threshers.

I really like the question posed. It is a good question because if we're going to say that something is too powerful, it is worth trying to come up with comparisons close in point cost, and then compare back and forth. Some of the discussion is going to be apples versus oranges, even if we can get close. I'm also a big math person, so let me look at a few things as well. I think the "threat 3 comparison" between X-bows and ST is great. I just did the math on ST, and their basic attack averages to 1.78 hits, including the one reroll. Everyone who has played Uthuk knows that you don't always get that reroll, but you often get it especially after the first turn because you'll end your activation and set up for the next round by handing out a panic token. For X-bows, incidentally, that also averages to 1.78 hits. That may seem counter-intuitive because they roll a red/blue, but by taking them with rank discipline that can reroll both dice if needed, the average matches out the same. What you're going to get is a bit more swinginess from the 2 reds. I've rolled two double hits, and I've had my ST blank out entirely even after a reroll. Beyond that, we start to get down to the Apples versus Oranges. You're going to go bring other stuff in your list regardless, and you're generally not going to have the two face-off. Generally speaking, ranged out to do more consistent reliable damage over the course of the game, but ranged units shouldn't have the overall health/defense of a siege stack. So on the balance, I'd say they are a fair comparison.

Since someone posed the question, I started looking through my Latari units. I've never put a 1x3 Leonx with Column tactics on the table, but after thinking through the thread and looking at the math, it makes me want to. This comes out to exactly 28 points. Let's start by noting that the blue die has a double surge on one face that can be used to trigger the Leonx ability immediately (unique surge mortal, non-unique hit). So for the sake of argument, that makes the blue die hit at .625 not at .5. Now, the three dice additionally have 1 red face with hit/surge, 1 blue face with surge, 1 blue face with hit/surge. Any time two surges come up together, you've got another hit. So that's a 1/8th chance on the red, and a 2/8 chance on each blue, and you need two of them together to match. So that's .06 average damage from the odds that the blue dice surge together, and 2x .03 that the red surges with one of the blues. Not high odds, but it needs to be added to our averages. So the Leonx block will do 2.12 average damage, multipled by its three threat. It will have 12 health, same as the X-bows. It won't have the same staying power as the ST (12 total wounds versus 20), but it is a highly mobile unit that is one of the best units at always winning its charge. Its also going to be better at flanking, and bumping that average damage threshold a bit higher, for which the mix of surge icons curiously enough starts to improve exponentially. Sure, you wouldn't want to pair them to fight directly against the ST, because the Leonx lose fighting effectiveness on the ST return swing while the Leonx cannot remove a single ST from the table on its attack. But since the exercise was to put units with similar damage outputs on the table at the same time, this fits the bill. I think that's also where the Apples/Oranges comparison breaks down, because a cav unit and a siege unit ought to play very differently from one another. And if the consensus is that the Uthuk single reroll on the ST is powerful, then by extension, now that we have the Darnati and it makes sense to trot out Greenwatch or Warsong Herald, there are possible ways to generate a single die reroll.

What the math is telling me is that the three units themselves can all generate a pretty good amount of damage at the price point, but you're going to have to build to take advantage of it and play them smartly. My sense when playing Uthuk is that sometimes the ST have to eat a ranged shot on a turn, and might lose a tray before they ever engage in melee. Something like that is almost required if you're going to beat them.

I think the other siege trays start to be an interesting comparison. I ran out of time looking at Scions, and while I fully expect a 2 tray Thresher to beat a 2 tray Scion, even if we allow the Scions an extra upgrade to bring them into Thresher territory, but the math isn't exactly crazy off here. Brutal is almost always worth more than an extra die, but the extra compensates somewhat and adds some flexibility when triggering abilities off of surges. The Thresher is a straight-up masher, and a Scuttling Horror Stun helps it overpower a target and limit its hitting back. The Scion won't hit nearly as hard, but you'd have to leverage the utility of the stun/imobilize in response. And now that we have Darnati, you might be better off using Darnati as a first blocker so that you can trigger one or more ranged attacks off your Scions, who in turn charge and block when the Darnati fall.

Anyway, really good question in the thread.