As for Vorun’Thul as a heavy upgrade, their design mentality for whatever reason is that those come at a steep discount. Look at front line Rune Golems and Spined Threshers - both are clearly worth more than they cost, just they shifted much of that cost to the unit itself.

5 hours ago, Maktorius said:

I felt a similar thing when looking at Lord Werebat's new infantry heavy upgrade for 8p (Brutal 1, change a red to a white) and comparing it to Ardus infantry champion upgrade for 23p (add a white dice, borrow surge effects). To me those two pretty much accomplish the same thing but with Lord Warebat at 1/3 of the cost!

Almost like the game took a slightly different turn after the core boxes and first hero expansions.

I definitely agree that the new point costs make this have look drastically different than wave 1. But after looking at it some more, I realized that Ardus may not be that out of line. Lord Vorun'thul upgrade is a whopping 19 points! I puzzled over that for a while, and realized that he costs so much because of his disruptive effect on the battlefield. Pushing archers away before they shoot, pulling enemy units into your archers' range before they shoot, making cavalry charges fall short, or pushing infantry so their flank charge becomes a frontal charge. With movement so strict, I can see why this upgrade is so much more expensive than Vorun'thul the Cursed.

Back to Ardus Ix'Erebus, my theory is that the main reason he costs so much, both as a unit and an upgrade, is his potential to blight in melee. Rolling 0 dice is just about as damaging as getting your movement screwed up, and I think they costed him with this in mind. Not to mention the fact that he can borrow surges from any future Waiqar unit and any faction's non-unique unit thanks to Ankaur Maro's Hidden Lore of the Shadow Council. And his upgrade adds a die instead of changing a die.

So I'm going to cut back on my complaints about Ardus. He might be closer to balanced than I had thought.

5 hours ago, Maktorius said:

I felt a similar thing when looking at Lord Werebat's new infantry heavy upgrade for 8p (Brutal 1, change a red to a white) and comparing it to Ardus infantry champion upgrade for 23p (add a white dice, borrow surge effects). To me those two pretty much accomplish the same thing but with Lord Warebat at 1/3 of the cost!

Almost like the game took a slightly different turn after the core boxes and first hero expansions.

I believe there was a design team change. ( I can't remember it who said it but it was discussed this year at the SW worlds tournaments)

5 hours ago, Maktorius said:

Almost   like the game took a slightly different turn after the core boxes and f  irst hero expa  nsio  ns. 

I agree. It's almost like the develpment team and playtester team had significant changes. (Spoiler: they did!) That's something Parakitor and I were looking at a month or two ago.

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

Back  to Ardus Ix'Erebus, my theory is that the main reason he costs so much, both as a unit and an upgrade, is his potential to blight in melee. Rolling 0 dice is just about  as damaging as getting your movement screwed up,   and  I    think    they costed him with this in mind. 

I'm sure of this as well, but I think he is very overpriced! How many surges are you expecting from Reanimates with him in? 0-1? And with the rerolls on a large block I would be surprised if you are not rerolling for hits instead of surges. Not to mention that you need to invest in reanimate archers for that blight ability, probably with combat ingenuity instead of rank discipline. I would consider him at 16p max for his abilities.

46 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

I agree   . It's almost like the develpment team and playtester  team had significant changes. (Spoiler: they did!) That's something Parakitor and I were looking at a month or two ago.

As I posted in another thread: I'm probably getting old, but so far I prefer the slower and more deliberate pace of the core boxes. I want the games to run for 8 rounds with smart maneuvering.

2 hours ago, Parakitor said:

So I'm going to cut back on my complaints about Ardus. He might be closer to balanced than I had thoug  ht.

We talk about him a little bit in our episode that comes out on Wednesday. I think we said it in a previous episode maybe, and mention it again here...but Host of Crows also improves with each new release. We'll see if it's good, but allowing a smaller sized unit to take the Vorun'Thul figure upgrades might be something to consider with Waiqar.

1 hour ago, Budgernaut said:

I agree. It's almost like the develpment team and playtester team had significant changes. (Spoiler: they did!) That's something Parakitor and I were looking at a month or two ago.

Was it a complete swap?

15 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:

Was it a complete swap?

I don't believe so, but the lead developers changed. I would need to look again, but I think the development team changed for elves and Uthuk, but some previous devrlopers may have been credited as playtesters? I really need to check when I recover my stuff.

My problem is they seem to create a balanced uthuk unit and then go oh wait we should add this too!!!! And then just give it slightly to much. If they just kept to the core of the units and didnt give them that plus 1 uthuk would be balanced.

6 hours ago, Tarliyn said:

My problem is they seem to create a balanced uthuk unit and then go oh wait we should add this too!!!! And then just give it slightly to much. If they just kept to the core of the units and didnt give them that plus 1 uthuk would be balanced.

I think this is a more correct description (see this for reference https://vimeo.com/126322279 )

Design Meeting) , Boss arrives 15 minutes late:)

-Heyoo! TEAM!

-Hi Boss!

- Whattya got for me today?

-We got this really nice unit! It's all about panic, and you know the Morale deck has a good bit of nasties, it can make large blocks turn and run, it can just outright eliminate trays in the heaviest of units, it can paralyze units...

-Cmon!

-Sorry boss... The unit splashes out panic tokens on enemies close to them, and since they roll 2 RED dice AND can dial in a Panic, it has a good chance of attacking and giving strength 3 morale tests! Oh, and it's a really big guy as well, actually THE biggest, it can take 10 damage before it goes down! Finally, if it faces smaller units or units resilient to Panic, instead of dial in a Panic, it can dial in a Hit!

-T eam! That sounds great and all, but I have a cravin'... for cow bells!

-Oh! Really? Eh... sure! We can put the Panic and the Hit on the SAME selection, that would be sort of innovative!

-You don't hear me team! I have fever! And the only prescription is more cow bells!

-It get's a reroll if the enemy has the Panic tokens that they've just splashed on them?

-Read my lips team!!! c-o-w-b-e-l-l-s.

-Jeez... Why don't we just give it brutal as well? [rolling eyes]

-COWBELLSSSSSSSSSSS!!!

-It's gonna have the lowest initiative of any siege unit so that it can do a ton of damage and trigger the high strength panic tests before the enemy can react!!?

-Now we are talking cow bells! Good work team! I'm out!

-Boss? What if we give it dirt cheap upgrades that lets it heal when it attacks? Or move sideways, OUTSIDE of their activation [giggles!]?

-[Winks at the team, gives them a smile and leaves].

On a more serious note, I agree, it's the best unit in the game at the moment. I'm very interested to see if that still holds true once we are a few more release waves in.

I don't think Vipers and Obscenes will push them out as ST are, in my opinion, superior. However I do worry about what a unit would have to do for me to NOT want to take a nice unit of ST.

It’s always interesting to me in games what gets evaluated up front as clearly good.

Flexibility and max potential nearly always gets thrown out in favor of reliable efficiency. When offered a 15-19 point, not really spammable unit that can armor up to 4 armor, reduce enemy damage coming in, and - under the right circumstances - can reasonably oneshot every hero in the game save Ravos, players put it aside and claim the spammable unit that does solid damage and consistent panic is better.

5 hours ago, Maktorius said:

O     h   ,   and it's a re  ally big guy as well, actually THE b  iggest, it can take 10 damage before i  t goes do  w    n   !  

Except that the thresher has to go to 6 trays to get shield wall and has no natural armor up. So 10-15 outside terrain and that 15 isn’t reliable.

Lancers armor early to 12HP and could get shield wall as well. Add in terrain and they sit at 9 always, 12 reliably, and 15 circumstantially. So they consistently absorb more damage if you wish to block and are much more resistant at natural 3 armor to area damage effects like Deathmist and Maegan.

Rune Golems sit at 8, but have access to + 1-2 armor and shield wall as well. So they sit below Thresher naturally, but easily get to 10-12, circumstatially to 14. With visored helms, then can also trigger armor up more reliably than shield wall. Super weak to mortal strikes though. Their stun also works as damage reduction in a way more effective than armor. Good news is that nothing coming up in announcements look to generate consistent mortal strikes. So an ever smaller % of all units on the table are bypassing their armor.

Scions are wierd. They aren’t super durable at an average 7.5HP with early armor up to 10.5. The bane generation is a qualitative add to their blocking that I won’t try to assign a # to.

So I don’t get the whole “thresher are the durable” argument. It’s a minor difference that other units quickly make up for in upgrades or dials.

4 hours ago, Church14 said:

It’     s always interesting to me in games what gets evaluated up front as clearly good.

Flexibility and max potential nearly always gets thrown out in favor of reliable efficiency. When offered a 15-19 point, not really spammable unit that can armor up  to 4 armor, reduce enemy damage coming in, and - under the right circumstances - can reasonably oneshot every hero in the game save Ravos, players put it aside and claim the spammable unit  that does solid damage and consistent panic is bette  r   .

I think it's because you can outplay those other options since they aren't always on. That makes it less interesting to play against. The Rune Golem, for example, often has to sacrifice its attack for the +defense to matter. There is a choice there. With Spined Threshers, you get to attack, the attack is earlier, and you still have good defense.

Also, if tournaments weren't so prevalent in FFG's games, I think more people would play flavorful, risky armies. But since tournaments require consistency to get to the top, consistency is valued highly.

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

Rune Golems sit at 8, but have access to + 1-2 armor and shield wall as well. So they sit below Thresher naturally, but easily get to 10-12, circumstatially to 14. With visored helms, then can also trigger armor up more reliably than shield wall. Super weak to mortal strikes though. Their stun also works as damage reduction in a way more effective than armor. Good news is that nothing coming up in announcements look to generate consistent mortal strikes. So an ever smaller % of all units on the table are bypassing their armor.

So I don’t get the whole “thresher are the durable” argument. It’s a minor difference that other units quickly make up for in upgrades or dials.

They are weak against anything that generates wounds directly not just Mortal. It’s quite a substantial list and many of its elements aren’t going away anytime soon (deathcaller, death grasp, Ravos)

If they wish to, say, move or shift they can’t armour up so stay at 8HP.

Shield wall and Visored Helms are both poor upgrades to put on a RG unit and still don’t address the weakness to armour piercing abilities.

They both take the cost well beyond ST and shield wall requires a siege unit to have more trays than the opponent (which is unlikely).

Visored helms is 7 points and exhausts and is only when you’ve not activated.

Realistically, for ST vs RG it’s not a “minor difference that other units quickly make up for in upgrades or dials”

ST are far more powerful and will remain so for the immediate future of the game but that’s ok as we have shiny flags and armour ?

4 hours ago, Church14 said:

Lancers armor early to 12HP and could get shield wall as well. Add in terrain and they sit at 9 always, 12 reliably, and 15 circumstantially. So they consistently absorb more damage if you wish to block and are much more resistant at natural 3 armor to area damage effects like Deathmist and Maegan.

Would you believe that I had never considered Shield Wall on Carrion Lancers? I will be tinkering with this idea probably for the rest of the day.

To me, the hardest thing about Spined Threshers is that a threat 3 unit needs 4 hits to take them out, while it only needs 3 hits to take out any other siege unit. At 2 or 4 threat, it requires the same amount of hits to take out any siege unit (assuming Scions get good Runes). Now, I'm no longer saying that's broken; I think that's a feature, and should be taken into consideration in list building. But to somebody unprepared (like I was) it's a real shock.

The problem with what you've proposed is that you've taken a versatile unit, and made it do one thing: defense. Unless I have a bunch of ranged units in the wings, a melee unit doing nothing but defense will not win games. So while you can reasonably make other siege units tougher than Spined Threshers, they can't do it while attacking, and they aren't even brutal 1. That, to me, makes Spined Threshers the best unit in the game.

However, I no longer think they need a nerf. I need to adjust my strategy and a little bit of my list composition, but at the moment, I think they are close enough to fair, even if they are slightly ahead of the curve (I reserve the right to reverse my opinion after a few more games).

3 hours ago, Church14 said:

It’s always interesting to me in games what gets evaluated up front as clearly good.

Flexibility and max potential nearly always gets thrown out in favor of reliable efficiency. When offered a 15-19 point, not really spammable unit that can armor up to 4 armor, reduce enemy damage coming in, and - under the right circumstances - can reasonably oneshot every hero in the game save Ravos, players put it aside and claim the spammable unit that does solid damage and consistent panic is better.

Except that the thresher has to go to 6 trays to get shield wall and has no natural armor up. So 10-15 outside terrain and that 15 isn’t reliable.

Lancers armor early to 12HP and could get shield wall as well. Add in terrain and they sit at 9 always, 12 reliably, and 15 circumstantially. So they consistently absorb more damage if you wish to block and are much more resistant at natural 3 armor to area damage effects like Deathmist and Maegan.

Rune Golems sit at 8, but have access to + 1-2 armor and shield wall as well. So they sit below Thresher naturally, but easily get to 10-12, circumstatially to 14. With visored helms, then can also trigger armor up more reliably than shield wall. Super weak to mortal strikes though. Their stun also works as damage reduction in a way more effective than armor. Good news is that nothing coming up in announcements look to generate consistent mortal strikes. So an ever smaller % of all units on the table are bypassing their armor.

Scions are wierd. They aren’t super durable at an average 7.5HP with early armor up to 10.5. The bane generation is a qualitative add to their blocking that I won’t try to assign a # to.

So I don’t get the whole “thresher are the durable” argument. It’s a minor difference that other units quickly make up for in upgrades or dials.

Carrion Lancers ARE great, that's true. Their dial is one of the best in the game, rolling 3 dice is always strong, and you never can quite ignore the threat of those surge mortal strikes. They're clearly very good in multiple sizes and builds, and any Waiqar player that isn't making extensive use of them is doing themself a disservice.

Rune Golems, maligned as they are, have their uses. Anyone forced to deal with their high defense will find them fairly durable, their damage is swingy but good, and although their dial is quite bad, white reforms are ALWAYS great.

More and more, I think 2 defense/5 wounds is actually a very strong statline. My meta will of course be skewing my perspective, but I think there are enough sources of direct wounds in the game that relying on high defense becomes a serious liability. You can't really counter Spined Threshers, you just have to chew through them. I'm glad for the defense/health balance providing theme and gameplay, it just so happens that Uthuk are designed for efficient combat stats that perform reliably. I think calling it a minor difference that is made up for with upgrades or dials is pretty disingenuous, because that's either a significant investment or a serious limitation on gameplay.

13 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

More and more, I think 2 defense/5 wounds is actually a very strong statline.

This always intrigues me because of Ankaur Maro, who is constantly accused of being "squishy." ? He is able to fire at range, avoiding melee conflict, and dealing consistent damage. I guess the key difference is that Spined Threshers travel in pairs most often, so when you defeat one, you are still left with another one that still maintains threat 2 and rerolls.

1 minute ago, Parakitor said:

This always intrigues me because of Ankaur Maro, who is constantly accused of being "squishy." ? He is able to fire at range, avoiding melee conflict, and dealing consistent damage. I guess the key difference is that Spined Threshers travel in pairs most often, so when you defeat one, you are still left with another one that still maintains threat 2 and rerolls.

Yeah, that is very much a "for the points" statement. 40+ points gets you a whole lot more than one Thresher.

I've been thinking more about Scuttling Horror and I hate it more and more. Assume that everyone who plays Runewars masters Scuttling Horror to the point where it is never a surprise. What does the game look like? To me, it starts feeling like a rock-paper-scissors guessing game. You know they can scuttle and they know you know they can scuttle,so you just have to guess at where they're going. What has effectively happened is the Spined Threshers are in multiple places at once. It's like a cloaking mechanic for something that isn't even invisible. And because they can be in multiple places at the time they receive their commands, they have way more options thanother units. I mean, it's true that the nature of the command tool system lends itself to making guesses, but I feel like this is a whole different level. And when I imagine a world where we're all used to it, it doesn't seem like it gets any better.

22 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

I've been thinking more about Scuttling Horror and I hate it more and more. Assume that everyone who plays Runewars masters Scuttling Horror to the point where it is never a surprise. What does the game look like? To me, it starts feeling like a rock-paper-scissors guessing game. You know they can scuttle and they know you know they can scuttle,so you just have to guess at where they're going. What has effectively happened is the Spined Threshers are in multiple places at once. It's like a cloaking mechanic for something that isn't even invisible. And because they can be in multiple places at the time they receive their commands, they have way more options thanother units. I mean, it's true that the nature of the command tool system lends itself to making guesses, but I feel like this is a whole different level. And when I imagine a world where we're all used to it, it doesn't seem like it gets any better.

Leonx Bounces

LordV I3 melee+shift

LordV skill off Champion

Flee in Terror

Etc...

Lots of things in this game can cause dramatic changes in board state that nullify your decision made during the command phase. Many of which trigger before you’ll have any real chance to counter. Why is Scuttling Horror so special in that regard?

Away from terrain, it is basically an exhaust-to-stun upgrade for me. Yes, it allows me to mess with someone who flanks my Threshers, but they don’t get flanked often due to how I play. In that context, it is not really different than the Leonx bounce except that the Leonx bounce can’t be taken away from them and works from any direction. So... stronger.

My concern with the card mostly stems from terrain.

49 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Lots   of things in this game can cause dramatic changes in board state that nullify your decision made during the command phase. Many of which trigger before you’ll have any real chance to counter. W  hy is Scuttling Horror so special in that regard? 

Maybe they're not, but most units are restricted to doing their frustrating things by the initiatives on the command tool. When a Thresher scuttles, it still has the whole command tool open, so you have more possibilities to consider than you do with other units. That extra mobility means a single action on the tool could have them ending up in three different places. And you'll probably say that shift-shift does the same thing, but if you shift-shift, there are usually only 1 or 2 initiatives that work. Scuttling Horror adds way more options to this unit than what appears to be abailable to other units.

I think the most egregious thing is Scuttling Horror does it for 3 points. The other units have it baked into their cost in an obscure manner, so you can't really analyze the ability on its own, but with Threshers it's right there staring you in the face. @Budgernaut hits the nail on the head with it being a free action as well - with Leonx, they either fight or they end up 1 away from you. Threshers might fight, might shift out and still dial the attack, might shift out and move away, might shift out and reform, etc. Plus, as you've described, this is over and above its frankly abusive relationship with terrain. Plus, it's a free stun!

As for flanking the Threshers being rare, the scuttle is a strong disincentive to go for the flank, even if it's open. Without it, the extra die and option to not close in if you kill the one you're engaged with are pretty strong, but with you suddenly face a coin flip on whether you get to do anything the next turn. Like, if Flank Guards read: "After the command phase, if it would engage or disengage you, you may perform a speed-1 shift sideways", how many points would it be worth? At least 3, I'd say.

On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 2:40 PM, Vergilius said:

Furthermore, I think the Uthuk basic design focuses around a few key principles that work in their favor for offense and actually a built in defense:

1. Speed in a straight line is the Uthuk's friend, and nearly every Uthuk unit has the ability to go fast.

2. Many Uthuk units are high health low armor, and although their overall package ends up being more expensive, this ends up working out in their favor, in that they'll tank more overall damage than other units of the same type. You're, for example, doing 6 damage to drop a flesh ripper tray. Although Waiqar gets that in a way with Death Knights, you have to work at it to get it to happen with Daqan, and can't do it at all with Latari. The Spined Thresher takes 10 damage to kill. Scions run between 6-9, averaging 7.5. Golems are 8, Carrion Lancers are 9. And although Spined Threshers lack an armor-up, they gain brutal and ways to leverage that brutal well. You're generally taking Scions as blockers, but as we've seen, those 2 tray Spined Thresher formations are cheap, resilient, and difficult to bring down, and still hit pretty well due to brutal when they lose a tray. Generally speaking, if you are armoring up, you're losing the damage benefits of a unit, so you have to be sure you've got other things in your list to compensate.

3. There are plenty of ways of generating extra damage output among Uthuk units, and since you're pulling enemy figures and weakening their power to hit back, this is extremely valuable in almost all FFG game designs.

4. Generating tons of panic tokens, and eventually the tests that go along with them, provides an extra dimension for dealing with problem enemy units. It is at the whims of the morale deck, but you're generating enough overall tests that in the standard game, several somethings are going to turn out well.

Here are some observations and thoughts:

1. Bezerkers/Flesh Rippers especially do not hit much harder than their counterparts in the other factions at the point of engagement. But what they do bring to the table is the ability to win the charge. That means trays removed. I haven't seen anyone play their infantry this way locally, but I wonder about those blue move-1/2 with white or blue armor-up. Some of it is the guessing game of initiative and what the opponent can do, but at that point, you've made it a game and moved it beyond merely the factions. So I wonder about just eating the charge, taking the damage, and then working the timing so that you can attack first next round, either by winning the initiative or having a lower attack initiative. Some of the guessing game here just takes practice, but it takes practice both ways, and it takes playing out the situations on the board, it isn't something we can easily hypothetically argue about here. The Flesh Ripper movement can just as easily backfire as it can allow them to do things you haven't anticipated. The Zerkers can long charge, but they can't quite be certain in many situations what the runes will be next turn.

2. Banes: If they're screaming across the map, they aren't taking inspiration. If they are taking an inspiration on turn-1, then you're actually getting the time to set-up your forces, which from the way people talk, hasn't been happening. In my experience, Uthuk give out banes, but they don't take them well.

3. Force multipliers: DR, Fire Rune, and anything else that generates extra attacks. Dispatch Runner in particular is probably essential if you're trying to tank the charge from a Zerk star, because then you end up with probably two unanswered attacks back at them, maybe three depending upon how the initiative set up.

4. Rallying ______: Getting rid of Ravos tokens on turn-1 can help the rest of the army inspiration up if needed, and is usually combined with a list that wants key upgrades available.

5. Smaller Unit sizes: Too many targets, only so many swings. I see a lot of big block units in my area. Usually someone has a 3x3 infantry, or a 2x3 cavalry, and someone was running 2 3x2 Latari Archers at the regional I attended. And sure, adding trays to a current stack is a more point efficient way to add those trays, but the damage increase is actually not as significant as adding just another unit.

6. Bid and take two obstacles. Given their straight line proclivities, Uthuk have to deploy carefully. A well placed obstacle can guard your flank and keep your force in formation for far longer than open terrain.

There's also sheer luck. Sometimes objectives/deployment and runes just go against you. That's the part of the game we all have to live with. Its just a casual game in the end.

@Vergilius I think puts things together very well.

If I do 4 damage and then 6 damage, I kill any of the various siege units. If I do 4 then 5 I don't kill a ST, CL, or in some cases a Scion. If I do 3, 3, 4. I don't kill a RG and I don't kill a ST. It can be similar for different sieges as far as what is needed to kill each one. Everyone says they'd be fair a 2/4 and I'm not saying they wouldn't be, Not at all. At 2/4 you're more likely to 1 hit a ST. However you're not one hitting a CL, ST, or in some cases a Scion at 8 damage. So the difference is noticeable but negligible. I agree the brutal and reroll mechanic and ability to add panic can be overwhelming, but they're more expensive for that reason. Yes, I know maybe not expensive enough...

I think preparing for the charge is extremely important. Everyone knows they are coming in hot early, so prepare for it. If I as an Uthuk can gauge how far I'd be at turn 7 then so can you. If I am not making it on turn one you know you can do rally type things or readjustments with shifts to prepare for my incoming. Or in some cases ,like Rune Golems, you can charge at 8 and surprise me.

Blight and immobilize and all of those abilities murder Uthuk, sure an Uthuk can lose it's immobilize and use it's white march, but I thought I was marching 3 then 1 now I'm just marching 1. We are prepared for that from cavalry in every faction, think that way for them. Blight really hurts because where many sieges get 3 dice, ST get 2, so dropping a dice does major harm.

I think, in my experience as an Uthuk, there are two different mechanics that I have a majorly hard time against.

1. Force Multipliers (DR, Fire Rune, Kari Surge, etc). If you're hitting me with a big block of anything twice in one turn my low armor is not going to like that. Fire rune decimates Uthuk because the low armor means more is getting through, and more attacks means I'm hurting.

2. Quick Lateral movement. In short, shifts kill Uthuk. If I'm 4 away from you and I dial in a charge with almost anything a single shift can destroy my plans. Wind Rune can single handedly destroy Uthuk. I'm charging really well in a straight line, but you know I'm coming in screaming, so shift away reform and face where I'm going to be, then charge my *** the next round.

I think MSU is a major strength against Uthuk.

On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 8:16 PM, Jukey said:

Due to uthuks low armor, I have found limited success in large msu builds that focus fire one unit down at a time. This can backfire though when zerkers pull off a double charge (wonder if designers realized aggressive shriekers can do that), or when ravos keeps topping off his viscera goblet by bouncing from 1 small target to the next.

I think the larger problem though is uthuk have access to a lot of underpriced great upgrades that when compared to other factions seem jaw droppingly overpowered. Add in the highly beneficial melee modifiers on their dials and hyper speed, we get the uthuk blitz meta that's currently on top.

@Jukey says he's had limited success. While yes many units can get moving again outside of their activation. You know this so prepare for it. Most of these moves are also march 1, so keep things just out of reach of march one. I think knowing I'm coming in on a long charge at i7 means if you charge forward as far as you can on I6 and plan ahead, have units 1.5 behind each other that can fire (Scions, archers, whatever) or units that are 1.5 behind and you know can't be then recharged on the out of activation movements makes a huge difference. For example: If I use a scion and charge forward I5 march 3 +1 armor I know it's getting charged but that's okay because I had another scion next to it that I did i4 March 2 and I set it up next to but just a little behind my other scion when I laid it down on the table. This means If my scion that marched 3 does die, I can prevent the march 1 from many moves and prepare for that (if I'm across ravos with IH, or FR with dead sprint, or Zerks with warsprinter then I stay 2 behind the scion) My next move I can choose to precharge them or range attack with a +1 armor dialed in if I need to. If behind all of this I have archers raining down on whatever is coming in. That unit is dealing with a lot of chip damage, and won't last. Yes, you do need to have one big hitter (usually your hero) to whittle big units down with the help of MSU, but for the most part all chip damage is good against Uthuk.

Setting up behind terrain (that can't be occupied) and facing the gap means when they come through you can charge them while they have to reform. During that time you can build up inspiration tokens or adjust to the battle movements.

Strengths against Uthuk:

Daqan: BIG hitter, spearstar with the guy adding a dice and FLRG is huge. Kari in scouts (now that those are out) is huge. Using your armor to your advantage and Heavy Crossbowman is a major strength. Against anything with fire rune or wind rune will just help even more.

Waiqar: Maro battery a couple big blocks of reanimates can just try to win out the war of attrition, however blight and Wraiths are your friends. Wraiths ability to stay behind terrain and then charge through, or their ability to move forward and reform is huge and can't be underestimated.

Latari: Archers, archers, archers. Also Aliana. Wind rune, move and shoot. Stay to the sides. fire rune, maegan imbedded to spread damage. These are major strengths.

Uthuk can't out do the range. They're getting their range soon but it will still devastate them to get hit by ranged. And the mobility of Wind Rune and it's reform will almost assure a victory.

1 hour ago, Curlycross said:

If I'      m 4 away from you and I dial in a charge with almost an  ything a single shift can destroy my plans.   

Am I the only odd Uthuk player who doesn't do long charges? I usually only charge at speed 1 or 2, and more often than not I'm just colliding without a charge.

33 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

Am I the only odd Uthuk player who doesn't do long ch  arges? I usually only charge at speed 1 or 2, and more often than not I'm just colliding without a charge.

I've long noted that you have a method of playing Uthuk that differs from the "just rush in" approach. I can definitely see some merit to this, as there are plenty of upgrades that fit the Uthuk playstyle and which increase their damage, and which may help break up a formation before a charge. I think your approach deserves a huge amount of respect, and is one I will probably try in the future.