2 minutes ago, Mep said:

It can be interpreted two different ways. The standard and turret arc become a single combined arc or the standard remains being a standard arc in addition to being a turret arc. The wording isn't clear enough to know if they meant to say the arcs are combined into one. One could interpret that way I suppose. The phrasing seems to indicated that standard arc remains a standard arc while the turret arc is using that arc. Two things, a turret arc in addition to a standard arc. The wording is such that they are two things, a turret arc and standard arc.

3 minutes ago, Nspace said:

I read it as saying that a standard arc and a turret arc are two different, separate things that can happen to share the same bounding lines on the ship token. When you fire a primary (non-turret) weapon out out the front, you are firing out of the Forward Arc, which is a standard arc. If you then use Veteran Turret Gunner, you would then fire out of the Turret Arc, which is not a standard arc but uses the standard arc lines on the ship token to indicate the edges of the turret arc.

ok, but that's clearly not what "The standard arc the turret arc is pointing to is a turret arc in addition to still being a standard arc." means. it's a turret arc and it's a standard arc at the same time. it's in addition, so both things. they are not separate.

i get where you're coming from with that reasoning, though, since you're using the arc for two different things. i still don't see how they could be different arcs based on what the sentence says, though. if the same arc was meant to be considered two different arcs, it would have been described something along the lines of "The standard arc the turret arc indicator is pointing to is still considered to be a standard arc for all other intents than (turret arc symbol)-effects".

19 minutes ago, Mep said:

@meffo The problem is you are adding words that are not there because you hate TLT and don't want to see them return. First off. FFG had plenty of opportunity to nerf TLTs. They never did even though they nerfed everything else. I get the hate on them and I am not sad to see them go. But as other have pointed out, there seems to be some forethought into this issue with ship design and some ships not having a gunner slot, like the shadow caster. If you want to double tap with a ghost, you are really going to pay to do that. Other ships seem to be pretty mild, like Ywings. Sure they can double tap two pea shooters, but they aren't doing that at range 3, with double foci and predator.

Is double tapping that good with those ships when you could be running something else for the same cost that is more maneuverable and spits out more dice on the single attack?

again, it's irrelevant whether it's balanced or i think it's balanced. i don't even assume the game to be very balanced, i only hope that it's decently balanced. i am adding words, yes, since FFG doesn't like regular words and i have had to learn their hieroglyphs instead. the (turret arc symbol) is definitely a new word for me, if nothing else. the reason for my adding words is not that i hate TLTs, i assure you, i just want to get to the bottom of this issue, which is why i'm in this forum and very eager to hear your opinions.

how ever, the rest of my interpretation is what i can gather from the text on the cards and in the rules reference. i'm not even worried about my interpretation about the part we're discussing now. i'm a lot more worried about these parts from my huge post above:

(selecting a different standard arc does not indicate it would become a new turret arc, it's an adjustment of where it's facing and still the same turret arc, even if it's a different standard arc).

alright, taking a step back and looking at all of this, i am assuming that a rotated turret arc is still the same turret arc, even if you rotate it to select another standard firing arc. this is because the rules reference clearly states that a standard firing arc is a (turret arc symbol) in addition to still being a standard arc - and that a ship can adjust which standard arc its turret indicator is pointing towards with the rotate action, not that it can change its (turret arc symbol) to be something else or a different (turret arc symbol).


these parts i definitely think we need clarification on. or at least i feel i need clarification on them, since they are very vaguely described indeed.

I can see the argument for both interpretations here based on what’s written and I agree a ruling is in order for clarity.

That said, I think the most common way this will be interpreted would be that the Y-wing can shoot twice (once primary, once with a turret) out of the front arc. I’d be very surprised if it was ruled otherwise. I wouldn’t have even considered the other interpretation had I not found this thread.

i think we can all agree the splitshot does not need clarification but the doubletap forward standard + turret arc does.

Add it to the list of crap FFG needs to faq asap.

@meffo

Sam, the accountant, is a professional dancer in addition to being an accountant. "Addition to" doesn't mean professional dancer and accountant are the same thing. Two separate things existing in the same space - Sam.

The language for them being combined into the exact same entity just isn't there. FFG are not wordsmiths and they clearly do not hire professional tech writers, so who knows what they mean. As written, they are making the point that the standard firing arc remains a standard arc even if the turret arc is pointing on that arc. No where does it say the turret arc becomes a standard arc or the standard arc becomes the turret arc. If fact they make it a point that the standard arc does not become a turret arc. It remains a standard arc.

"The standard arc the turret arc is po  inting to is a turret arc in addition to still being a standard arc."

12 minutes ago, meffo said:

ok, but that's clearly not what "The standard arc the turret arc is pointing to is a turret arc in addition to still being a standard arc." means. it's a turret arc and it's a standard arc at the same time. it's in addition, so both things. they are not separate.

i get where you're coming from with that reasoning, though, since you're using the arc for two different things. i still don't see how they could be different arcs based on what the sentence says, though. if the same arc was meant to be considered two different arcs, it would have been described something along the lines of "The standard arc the turret arc indicator is pointing to is still considered to be a standard arc for all other intents than (turret arc symbol)-effects".

This is why there needs to be some official clarification, because I read that as "both things, but still separate."

For me, the key reason for seeing them as separate is the primary weapon turret, like the Decimator. There are no shaded arcs on the Decimator's ship token, indicating that it has no native standard firing arcs, it only has a Turret Arc. When the turret points forward, it does not create a standard arc and does not give the Decimator a Front Arc (which is separately defined in the Rules Reference), it still only has the Turret Arc to fire out of.

Just now, Nspace said:

This is why there needs to be some official clarification, because I read that as "both things, but still separate."

For me, the key reason for seeing them as separate is the primary weapon turret, like the Decimator. There are no shaded arcs on the Decimator's ship token, indicating that it has no native standard firing arcs, it only has a Turret Arc. When the turret points forward, it does not create a standard arc and does not give the Decimator a Front Arc (which is separately defined in the Rules Reference), it still only has the Turret Arc  to fire out of.

all ships have four standard arcs. they're still arcs, even if they're not being used.

No, a standard arc is a specifically defined thing, not a general term. A standard arc can only be one of three things: a front arc (with the front arc symbol), side arcs (which don't have a symbol) or a rear arc (which has the rear arc symbol). The Decimator has none of those, it only has the turret arc (with the turret arc symbol). There might be lines on the Decimator's ship token, but they are not standard arcs.

7 minutes ago, Mep said:

@meffo

Sam, the accountant, is a professional dancer in addition to being an accountant. "Addition to" doesn't mean professional dancer and accountant are the same thing. Two separate things existing in the same space - Sam.

 The language for them being combined into the exact same entity just isn't there. FFG are not wordsmiths and they clearly do not hire professional tech writers, so who knows what they mean. As written, they are making the point that the standard firing arc remains a standard arc even if the turret arc is pointing on that arc. No where does it say the turret arc becomes a standard arc or the standard arc becomes the turret arc. If fact they make it a point that the standard arc does not become a turret arc. It remains a standard arc.

"The standard arc the turret arc is po  inting to is a turret arc in addition to still being a standard arc."

i will agree to disagree. if sam is a professional dancer in addition to being an accountant, he's not two different individuals. he's still sam, professional dancer and accountant. we're discussing game rules here, so timing has a different meaning than in normal life. how ever, he's still a professional dancer and an accountant, even if he's dancing at broadway or keeping books on wall street at any given moment.

the language for them being combined into the exact same entity is definitely there. it does say in the sentence that the standard arc becomes the turret arc and that the turret arc becomes the standard arc.

it's quite clear to me this obviously needs clarification, though. i thank you for your patience and for giving me the opportunity to understand your line of reasoning.

i'm still more worried about the turret arc being a different arc or not after you've moved it, though. seems very unclear and difficult to formulate.

4 minutes ago, Nspace said:

No, a standard arc is a specifically defined thing, not a general term. A standard arc can only be one of three things: a front arc (with the front arc symbol), side arcs (which don't have a symbol) or a rear arc (which has the rear arc symbol). The Decimator has none of those, it only has the turret arc (with the turret arc symbol). There might be lines on the Decimator's ship token, but they are not standard arcs.

why? standard arcs are defined just fine in the rules reference and there is no reason not to take them into account for different game effects. they're not firing arcs, they're just standard arcs. the decimator can carry torpedoes. do you mean to say it's unable to fire them - or that the decimator would suddenly gain a forward arc if it equipped a torpedo?

also, the turret arc needs to be pointed at a standard arc to even work.

@Nspace Yeah, there are four standard arcs, a bull's eye arc and two full arcs that all ships get. Ships with just a turret main weapon still have a forward arc and some times can use missiles and torps that must use that standard forward arc. That forward arc is not a firing arc however. Firing arcs are defined by shading on the card indicating primary weapons or if a turret is present, ship included or an upgrade, where that turret arc indicator is pointed.

Example, the shadow caster has a primary weapon out the front, which gives it a front firing arc. It also has a turret. That turret's arc is defined by where it is pointing. If you take the title and want to tractor a ship, you have to hit and have that ship in both the primary firing arc and the turret arc. THOSE ARE TWO SEPARATE ARCS. A primary firing arc and turret arc are NOT THE SAME . They can both be using the same standard arc or they can use two separate standard arcs and still work if the defender is in both the primary arc and turret arc.

@meffo Sorry, accounting and dancing are not the same thing even if those tasks are being doing by the same person. The language isn't there. You are adding with math not doing English. Sadly, they are two very separate things, like primary firing arcs and turret arcs.

The firing arc issue gets even more crazy with the Hawk. You can take the title giving it a forward primary weapon. However the rules define a firing arc based on the shading on the ship's cardboard token or where the turret arc is pointing. As written, the Hawk does not benefit from a gained firing arc when it receives a primary weapon so all those pilot abilities are still based solely on where the turret arc is pointing.

This is something I think the FAQ will change.

5 minutes ago, Mep said:

The firing arc issue gets even more crazy with the Hawk. You can take the title giving it a forward primary weapon. However the rules define a firing arc based on the shading on the ship's cardboard token or where the turret arc is pointing. As written, the Hawk does not benefit from a gained firing arc when it receives a primary weapon so all those pilot abilities are still based solely on where the turret arc is pointing.

This is something I think the FAQ will change.

the definition of a firing arc in the rules reference is very lackluster to say the least, i agree. this is in the golden rules, though. "If the ability of a card conflicts with the rules in this guide, the card ability takes precedence". so the moldy crow title definitely gives the ship a forward firing arc.

3 minutes ago, Mep said:

@Nspace Yeah, there are four standard arcs, a bull's eye arc and two full arcs that all ships get. Ships with just a turret main weapon still have a forward arc and some times can use missiles and torps that must use that standard forward arc. That forward arc is not a firing arc however. Firing arcs are defined by shading on the card indicating primary weapons or if a turret is present, ship included or an upgrade, where that turret arc indicator is pointed.

Example, the shadow caster has a primary weapon out the front, which gives it a front firing arc. It also has a turret. That turret's arc is defined by where it is pointing. If you take the title and want to tractor a ship, you have to hit and have that ship in both the primary firing arc and the turret arc. THOSE ARE TWO SEPARATE ARCS. A primary firing arc and turret arc are NOT THE SAME . They can both be using the same standard arc or they can use two separate standard arcs and still work if the defender is in both the primary arc and turret arc.

 @meffo Sorry, accounting and dancing are not the same thing even if those tasks are being doing by the same person. The language isn't there. You are adding with math not doing English. Sadly, they are two very separate things, like primary firing arcs and turret arcs. 

the shadow caster example is very interesting indeed. doesn't say anywhere they are separate arcs or that they have to be separate arcs for the effect to work. of course, they could be separate and the effect would still work, but it's not stated anywhere that they are separate arcs. on the other hand, it is stated in the rules reference that they are the same arc if the turret indicator is pointed in that arc, since it is stated that it is a standard arc in addition to being a turret arc.

accounting and dancing are not the same thing, no. math is a language, just like english. the language is definitely there. addition is a mathematical term. the accounting and dancing is added together to make a dancing accountant. it's irrelevant if he's dancing while he's accounting, sam is still one single entity with two different occupations.

Sticking to the example of Sam:
Lets say there is a rule: after greeting a person, you can greet a dancer, who is a dancer you didn't greet.
You have greeted Sam the accountant, can you greet Sam the dancer according to that rule?

5 minutes ago, Szczekal said:

Sticking to the example of Sam:
Lets say there is a rule: after greeting a person, you can greet a dancer, who is a dancer you didn't greet.
You have greeted Sam the accountant, can you greet Sam the dancer according to that rule?

assuming the same context, that sam is a professional dancer and an accountant, no of course not, since you've already greeted sam.

assuming no other context, maybe. sam is a common name, and your problem does not provide sufficient information for a solution in and of itself.

@meffo I agree that the hawk should gain a firing arc. However the title card does not say it gains a firing arc and seems to work more like a special weapon. Nor does the rules state primary weapons are firing arcs. They go by the cardboard. I believe this is an oversight, however this is a great example of adding words that do not exist. The Golden Rule does not say "go ahead and make stuff up". If an added firing arc is their intent, then they will have to FAQ that card to add words stating the hawk has a front firing arc in addition to a primary weapon. (see, not the same thing there either) Alternatively they can change the rules on firing arcs to include any non turreted primary weapons marked or not marked on the card.

In math, 1+2=3. In English, accountant in addition to dancer doesn't create an accouncer. You're using math when you need to use English, which I am not sure you understand that is what you are doing. Sam is one thing in addition to being something else. He is two different things not two things combined together. There is different language for that. No math is being done here.

BTW, the shadow caster card does state the two arcs as being different arcs. One is a turret arc, one is a primary arc. It is very clear on that. The fact that those two separately defined arcs are in the same standard arc or not is not irrelevant for the effect and checking if the effect triggers requires them to each be checked.

3 minutes ago, Mep said:

@meffo I agree that the hawk should gain a firing arc. However the title card does not say it gains a firing arc and seems to work more like a special weapon. Nor does the rules state primary weapons are firing arcs. They go by the cardboard. I believe this is an oversight, however this is a great example of adding words that do not exist. The Golden Rule does not say "go ahead and make stuff up". If an added firing arc is their intent, then they will have to FAQ that card to add words stating the hawk has a front firing arc in addition to a primary weapon. (see, not the same thing there either) Alternatively they can change the rules on firing arcs to include any non turreted primary weapons marked or not marked on the card.

In math, 1+2=3. In English, accountant in addition to dancer doesn't create an accouncer. You're using math when you need to use English, which I am not sure you understand that is what you are doing. Sam is one thing in addition to being something else. He is two different things not two things combined together. There is different language for that. No math is being done here.

BTW, the shadow caster card does state the two arcs as being different arcs. One is a turret arc, one is a primary arc. It is very clear on that. The fact that those two separately defined arcs are in the same standard arc or not is not irrelevant for the effect and checking if the effect triggers requires them to each be checked.

Moldy Crow:

"Gain a {Front Arc symbol} primary weapon with a value of "3".

During the End Phase, do not remove up to 2 focus tokens."

I think your trawling with that one.

3 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Moldy Crow:

"Gain a {Front Arc symbol} primary weapon with a value of "3".

During the End Phase, do not remove up to 2 focus tokens."

I think your trawling with that one.

Yeah, special weapons do the same thing. Like I said, probably an oversight but as written the rules do not give the hawk a firing arc with its title, which is not the same thing as a primary weapon. Then again, who knows, maybe they intend for the hawk turret to point at a target for the pilot ability to proc.

1 minute ago, Mep said:

Yeah, special weapons do the same thing. Like I said, probably an oversight but as written the rules do not give the hawk a firing arc with its title, which is not the same thing as a primary weapon. Then again, who knows, maybe they intend for the hawk turret to point at a target for the pilot ability to proc.

From the Arcs section:

Firing Arcs

A ship's FIRING ARCS include all shaded arcs on the ship's ship token plus all arcs, if any.

If an upgrade card gives a ship a arc or primary weapon with a specified arc, those arcs are also firing arcs.

Okay, never mind. It is in there. We all need to read English better.

8 minutes ago, Mep said:

@meffo I agree that the hawk should gain a firing arc. However the title card does not say it gains a firing arc and seems to work more like a special weapon. Nor does the rules state primary weapons are firing arcs. They go by the cardboard. I believe this is an oversight, however this is a great example of adding words that do not exist. The Golden Rule does not say "go ahead and make stuff up". If an added firing arc is their intent, then they will have to FAQ that card to add words stating the hawk has a front firing arc in addition to a primary weapon. (see, not the same thing there either) Alternatively they can change the rules on firing arcs to include any non turreted primary weapons marked or not marked on the card.

In math, 1+2=3. In English, accountant in addition to dancer doesn't create an accouncer. You're using math when you need to use English, which I am not sure you understand that is what you are doing. Sam is one thing in addition to being something else. He is two different things not two things combined together. There is different language for that. No math is being done  here.

 BTW, the shadow caster card does state the two arcs as being different arcs. One is a turret arc, one is a primary arc. It is very clear on that. The fact that those two separately defined arcs are in the same standard arc or not is not irrelevant for the effect and checking if the effect triggers requires them to each be checked.

moldy crow says:

"Gain a (forward firing arc symbol) primary weapon with a value of "3". During the End Phase, do not remove up to 2 focus tokens."

so it's not a matter of making anything up, it's a matter of being able to interpret FFGs symbols.


shadow caster says:

"After you perform an attack that hits, if the defender is in your (turret arc symbol) and your (forward firing arc symbol), the defender gains 1 tractor token."

so it's a matter of you making things up instead of interpreting FFGs symbols according to the rules reference. doesn't say anything about it having to be different arcs.


in english, one plus two equals three - and not owo or ono or tno or twe. sam does not cease to be sam just because he has two different professions. he could stop being a professional dancer and an accountant if he quit one of his jobs, but that would be making up new circumstances. in english and in maths, a professional dancer and an accountant equals a professional dancer and an accountant. they're still the same thing, no matter if they are the same person or two separate people together. a professional dancer is not the same thing as an accountant, but a professional dancer and an accountant is the same thing as a professional dancer and an accountant.

i feel insane now.

@meffo I'll join you in insanity. Veteran Turret Gunner only says if you can make a bonus dancer attack but you can't fire out of the same dancer you already fired out of. It actually doesn't care if you fired out of your accountant or not. It is not checking accountant, just the dancer. If it is checking for both accountant and dancer, then it would simply say Sam. In the case of the shadow caster, it says you need both accountant and dancer but the accountant could be Bill who sets next to Sam. They are different checks because they are different things.

13 hours ago, Nspace said:

No, a standard arc is a specifically defined thing, not a general term. A standard arc can only be one of three things: a front arc (with the front arc symbol), side arcs (which don't have a symbol) or a rear arc (which has the rear arc symbol). The Decimator has none of those, it only has the turret arc (with the turret arc symbol). There might be lines on the Decimator's ship token, but they are not standard arcs.

If the Decimator doesn't have a standard arc how does it fire a torpedo?

2 hours ago, papy72 said:

If the Decimator doesn't have a standard arc how does it fire a torpedo?

The Torpedo upgrades (and all fixed-arc secondary weapons) provide their own arcs. They all currently have the "V" front arc symbol. Proton Rockets and Heavy Laser Cannon use the Bullseye arc instead of the front arc. It is theoretically possible some future missiles, torpedoes, or cannons will use other arcs.

This seems pretty clear to me.

Y-wing has a primary weapon in its forward arc. After making an attack from this weapon it can make an attack using its turret. As the turret has not yet been fired the arc it is pointed at is irrelevant as the turret has not fired already.

However the falcon has a turret for a primary weapon. After making an attack from one arc it's bonus one has to be from the other arc.

Thiughts?