11 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

This doesn't work because the rotate arc action specifically doesn't let you:

• If a ship rotates a double turret arc indicator, it must select the other two standard arcs it was not already selecting.

Hmm, I missed that part.

Good to know. It's clear therefore that this doesn't work unless the target is positioned across a quadrant line and can therefore be in both a side and a front/back arc.

11 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

When using VTG you're firing out of a turret arc that isn't the same firing arc as the primary weapon you fired regardless of where it is pointing. Turret arcs can be moved to overlap different Standard Arcs. Nothing in the rules states that Standard Arcs or Firing Arcs are locked out of being fired from again that round after they have been shot from once (with the exception of requirements listed on individual upgrade cards that only apply as those cards state when those cards are in play and their abilities are used). What are you basing your disagreement with being able to double tap out of the same Standard Arc with VTG on?

My point is that you and several other are using 1.0-expressions that are no longer defined in the rules or rules reference. There are no "primary arc" or "secondary arc", only firing arc.

From the Rules reference p. 4. "There are two types of turret arc indicators: single turret () and double turret ()." [so the explanation of the symbol calls it a turret arc indicator, not a turret arc]..."The turret arc indicator points toward one of ship’s four standard arcs." [which is a standard arc as well].

"A ship’s firing arcs include all shaded arcs on the ship’s ship token plus all [turret arc indicator] arcs, if any" [The rules explictly says that you have a firing arc. You do not have a primary weapon arc and a turret arc, you only have one firing arc that can be granted to you either by a primary weapon pointing in one or more directions or by a turret arc indicator].

I think the problem stems from FFG use of symbols and not clearly defining them. Is the [turret] symbol an arc, weapon, indicator?

RAW gives Front arc, side arc, rear arc, bullseye arc, full front arc, full rear arc and turret arc indicator, not turret arc. It goes on to explain that the turret can shoot out of one of the four standard arcs.

And the problem is not only with doubletapping. Does Outmaneuver work with a ship with a primary turret weapon? According to you it does not, because a "turret arc" is not the same as a "Front arc" which is described on Outmaneuver. Da a primary "turret arc" have a bullseye-arc? It's not marked on the K-wing, so what happens if Miranda equips Barrage rockets? Why does the Punishing One give bonus to the front arc if the JumpMaster doesn't have a front arc, only "turret arcs".

IMO, this should be explained in the rules, get FAQed or errata.

48 minutes ago, dragegutt21 said:

It's not marked on the K-wing, so what happens if Miranda equips Barrage rockets?

Really? There's no bullseye arc on the K-wing base insert?

32 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Really? There's no bullseye arc on the K-wing base insert?

There is a bullseye arc on literally every ship in 2e. it's not shaded on all of them, but the lines are present for a reason.

from my perspective, it's all pretty clear now, all thanks to these parts of the rules reference.

there is no discussion of whether the symbol is a turret (weapon) or a turret arc. it's a turret arc. says so very clearly.


a turret arc is always the same turret arc, not matter if you change it's facing. it doesn't say it would become another arc anywhere, only that you can change which way it's facing (selecting a different standard arc does not indicate it would become a new turret arc, it's an adjustment of where it's facing and still the same turret arc, even if it's a different standard arc).


objects can be in one or several of a ships arcs at the same time. therefore, there is no problem taking advantage of the bullseye firing arc while firing out of a turret arc, with for example a primary attack from a turret arc facing forwards at a ship that is also in your bullseye firing arc.

the front arc is a standard arc and while a turret arc indicator is pointing towards it, it is also a turret arc. therefore, you can take advantage of outmaneuver when firing a turret out of you front just as you could when firing any other weapon out of your front arc.

assuming your primary weapon is not a turret and you're equipped with a turret and the veteran turret gunner, you can fire your primary out of your front arc as normal, and then trigger veteran turret gunner and fire out of your turret arc, but only if your turret arc indicator is pointing at one of you other standard arcs! (since you already shot out of your front arc - and that arc is a turret arc in addition to being a standard arc, no matter if you fired a turret weapon out of it or not.)

assuming your primary weapon is a turret with a double arc and the veteran turret gunner equipped, you can fire out of one of you firing arcs as normal, then trigger veteran turret gunner and fire out of you other turret arc.

as for han solo (rebel gunner), this is where it gets a bit complicated. if you fire out of a turret arc at initiative 7 (this doesn't require you to engage, mind you!) and then activate airen cracken and perform an attack, using crackens ability to hand out an action and rotating the arc of the ship equipped with han solo - and then go on to engage with the ship han solo is sitting on, you cannot fire out of the same turret arc you've already fired out of, meaning that you could perform a primary attack out of you standard front facing arc, even if that's where your turret arc was facing earlier, since that arc no longer has the same turret arc indicator pointing towards it. it also means that you cannot fire out of the arc you rotated your turret to through airen crackens ability, since that arc is now the same turret arc han solo fired out of with his ability. it also means that if you happen to have han solo on a ship with a primary two way facing turret, you could fire with han solo at initiative 7, do the cracken thing and then fire out of you other turret arc, as long as you made sure to rotate the other turret arc (and not the one han solo used) to the standard arc you want to use. keep in mind that you cannot rotate a double turret arc indicator 180 degrees and fire out of the same arc twice, you would have to pick left or right and make sure to turn it the right way.

alright, taking a step back and looking at all of this, i am assuming that a rotated turret arc is still the same turret arc, even if you rotate it to select another standard firing arc. this is because the rules reference clearly states that a standard firing arc is a (turret arc symbol) in addition to still being a standard arc - and that a ship can adjust which standard arc its turret indicator is pointing towards with the rotate action, not that it can change its (turret arc symbol) to be something else or a different (turret arc symbol).

as i've read many times in this forum, the rules state what you can do - and not what you cannot do. of course, some additional clarification on this from official sources would be good, but i think my interpretation of the mechanics is justified.

phew. naw, i mean pewpewpew!

25 minutes ago, meffo said:

assuming your primary weapon is not a turret and you're equipped with a turret and the veteran turret gunner, you can fire your primary out of your front arc as normal, and then trigger veteran turret gunner and fire out of your turret arc, but only if your turret arc indicator is pointing at one of you other standard arcs! (since you already shot out of your front arc - and that arc is a turret arc in addition to being a standard arc, no matter if you fired a turret weapon out of it or not.)

FFG is going to need to clarify.

14 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

FFG is going to need to clarify.

agreed overall, but this part is pretty clear already.

"The turret arc indicator points toward one of ship’s four standard arcs. The standard arc that the turret arc indicator is pointing toward is a (turret arc symbol) in addition to still being a standard arc. While a ship performs a (turret arc symbol) attack, it can attack a target that is in its (turret arc symbol) arc."

so if you've already attacked out of that arc, you cannot do so again according to the wording on veteran turret gunner. in this example, the front arc is definitely not usable for veteran turret gunner, since it's already a turret arc in addition to being a standard arc, regardless of what you fire out of it before trying to trigger veteran turret gunner. you can use any other standard arc your turret indicator is pointing towards, though.

or what's your thoughts on why that would be unclear?

7 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

There is a bullseye arc on literally every ship in 2e. it's not shaded on all of them, but the lines are present for a reason.

Good.

I thought that was the case - hence my surprise at the statement. "Being in attacker's [bullseye arc]" or similar is a potential rules trigger and I didn't think they'd ignore it. Besides which, K-wings can carry missiles, several of which are linked to bullseye

So if the turret is pointing forward, then looking at the image under Standard Arcs, #1 is a front arc and a turret arc. That does not necessarily mean that you can interchange the front arc icon and the turret arc icon on all abilities and upgrade cards such as Vet Turret Gunner and Outmaneuver, only that both the front arc icon and the turret arc icon are using the same standard arc defined in the rules.

14 minutes ago, meffo said:

agreed overall, but this part is pretty clear already.

"The turret arc indicator points toward one of ship’s four standard arcs. The standard arc that the turret arc indicator is pointing toward is a (turret arc symbol) in addition to still being a standard arc. While a ship performs a (turret arc symbol) attack, it can attack a target that is in its (turret arc symbol) arc."

so if you've already attacked out of that arc, you cannot do so again according to the wording on veteran turret gunner. in this example, the front arc is definitely not usable for veteran turret gunner, since it's already a turret arc in addition to being a standard arc, regardless of what you fire out of it before trying to trigger veteran turret gunner. you can use any other standard arc your turret indicator is pointing towards, though.

or what's your thoughts on why that would be unclear?

Mainly that it calls into question the reasoning behind ships with single turret arcs and 3 red front arc primaries (inclusive of Moldy HWK) not getting a gunner slot as well as the price of VTG in relation to HTG with as powerful as token stripping is now. If they aren't trying to avoid a 4/3 (dorsal or turret primary) or 4/4 with ion cannon turret double tap then why? For VTG to work for the strongest double taps your risking a nasty return shot from most opponents which balances it out in my opinion. If it doesn't, as the rules look to imply, then it isn't worth 8 pts and you're better off with an empty slot or other upgrades.

Veteran Turret Gunner does not say anything about standard arcs. It only references turret arcs. It is clear you cannot fire two turrets out of the same arc.

" After you perform a primary attack, you may perform a bonus turret arc attack using a turret arc you did not already attack from this round. " This what the card says. You do what the card says. What the card does not say is standard arc.

If the card wants to disqualify an attack out of the same arc, it can clearly say so by being worded as such " After you perform a primary attack, you may perform a bonus turret arc attack using a standard arc you did not already attack from this round."

"The standard arc the turret arc is pointing to is a turret arc in addition to still being a standard arc." That arc is two things, a standard arc and a turret arc. Veteran Turret Gunner does not disqualify an attack based on a standard arc attack, just a turret arc attack. Veteran Turret Gunner will not allow you to fire two turret attacks out of the same arc. It does not say you cannot perform a non-turret attack (it just needs to be primary) out of the same arc. You do what the card says. People are adding words to this card that does not exist.

5 minutes ago, Mep said:

Veteran Turret Gunner does not say anything about standard arcs. It only references turret arcs. It is clear you cannot fire two turrets out of the same arc.

" After you perform a primary attack, you may perform a bonus turret arc attack using a turret arc you did not already attack from this round. " This what the card says. You do what the card says. What the card does not say is standard arc.

If the card wants to disqualify an attack out of the same arc, it can clear say so by being worded as such " After you perform a primary attack, you may perform a bonus turret arc attack using a standard arc you did not already attack from this round."

"The standard arc the turret arc is pointing to is a turret arc in addition to still being a standard arc." That arc is two things, a standard arc and a turret arc. Veteran Turret Gunner does not disqualify an attack based on a standard arc attack, just a turret arc attack. Veteran Turret Gunner will not allow you to fire two turret attacks out of the same arc. It does not say you cannot perform a non-turret attack (it just needs to be primary) out of the same arc. You do what the card says. People are adding words to this card that does not exist.

That is where the division in interpretation is and why it needs to be clarified by FFG. Does firing a non-turret arc primary from a standard arc that a turret arc is pointed into count as having fired from the turret arc as well as the standard arc, especially as it relates to Vet Turret Gunner?

9 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

That is where the division in interpretation is and why it needs to be clarified by FFG. Does firing a non-turret arc primary from a standard arc that a turret arc is pointed into count as having fired from the turret arc as well as the standard arc, especially as it relates to Vet Turret Gunner?

according to the rules reference, yes. the standard arc in question is also a turret arc. "The standard arc the turret arc is pointing to is a turret arc in addition to still being a standard arc."

the actual weapon you're using is not taken into consideration anywhere in the rules or on the veteran turret gunner card.

2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

That is where the division in interpretation is and why it needs to be clarified by FFG. Does firing a non-turret arc primary from a standard arc that a turret arc is pointed into count as having fired from the turret arc as well as the standard arc, especially as it relates to Vet Turret Gunner?

Expect the card does NOT say standard arc. It only says turret arc. The arc is two things, a standard arc and a turret arc. The card only references the turret arc. People are adding words to the card that do not exist.

If they intended the card to disqualify all attacks out of an arc then it needs to be clarified. Currently the wording on the card does not support that interpretation. Supposedly Alex already did this, for whatever that is worth. Just follow the rules and do what the card says and don't add anything to it that is not there.

5 minutes ago, meffo said:

according to the rules reference, yes. the standard arc in question is also a turret arc. "The standard arc the turret arc is pointing to is a turret arc in addition to still being a standard arc."

the actual weapon you're using is not taken into consideration anywhere in the rules or on the veteran turret gunner card.

2 minutes ago, Mep said:

Expect the card does NOT say standard arc. It only says turret arc. The arc is two things, a standard arc and a turret arc. The card only references the turret arc. People are adding words to the card that do not exist.

If they intended the card to disqualify all attacks out of an arc then it needs to be clarified. Currently the wording on the card does not support that interpretation. Supposedly Alex already did this, for whatever that is worth. Just follow the rules and do what the card says and don't add anything to it that is not there.

You both just demonstrated the division and why it needs clarification. Thank you.

17 minutes ago, Mep said:

Veteran Turret Gunner does not say anything about standard arcs. It only references turret arcs. It is clear you cannot fire two turrets out of the same arc.

" After you perform a primary attack, you may perform a bonus turret arc attack using a turret arc you did not already attack from this round. " This what the card says. You do what the card says. What the card does not say is standard arc.

If the card wants to disqualify an attack out of the same arc, it can clearly say so by being worded as such " After you perform a primary attack, you may perform a bonus turret arc attack using a standard arc you did not already attack from this round."

"The standard arc the turret arc is pointing to is a turret arc in addition to still being a standard arc." That arc is two things, a standard arc and a turret arc. Veteran Turret Gunner does not disqualify an attack based on a standard arc attack, just a turret arc attack. Veteran Turret Gunner will not allow you to fire two turret attacks out of the same arc. It does not say you cannot perform a non-turret attack (it just needs to be primary) out of the same arc. You do what the card says. People are adding words to this card that does not exist.

veteran turret gunner does say something about standard arcs, since it uses the (turret arc symbol) in its text. the (turret arc symbol) makes which ever standard arc the turret indicator i pointing towards a (turret arc symbol).

i agree it could be worded more clearly, but according to the definition of the (turret arc symbol) in the rules reference. the arc the turret arc indicator is two things, yes, but being two things is not the same thing as being two separate things. it is not just a standard arc, it is also a (turret arc symbol) and will continue to be so until it no longer has a turret arc indicator pointed at it.

again, it says what you can do, not what you cannot do. you still cannot ignore the rules reference, though.

16 minutes ago, meffo said:

according to the rules reference, yes. the standard arc in question is also a turret arc. "The standard arc the turret arc is pointing to is a turret arc in addition to still being a standard arc."

the actual weapon you're using is not taken into consideration anywhere in the rules or on the veteran turret gunner card.

Actually veteran turret gunner is VERY clear on what weapon you're using. It makes it very clear it a primary weapon needs to be fired and you cannot use a turret arc that was already used.

This thinking is how people start adding words to cards that are not there. They quickly read the card, internalized and interpret it in their own way and come up with things like "the weapon is not taken into consideration" when the card clearly states what is to be done and clearly references the weapon types.

If it is a fixed primary weapon, it is not using a turret arc. Veteran turret gunner only references turret arcs in its check as to if a turret arc can be used. If the intent (and sure, it could be intended this way) for veteran turret gunner to not use an arc any weapon was fired from that round, then they can clearly state that on the card. However it isn't worded that way. FFG is really bad at wording things however, so no one really knows. For now, do what the card says.

39 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Mainly that it calls into question the reasoning behind ships with single turret arcs and 3 red front arc primaries (inclusive of Moldy HWK) not getting a gunner slot as well as the price of VTG in relation to HTG with as powerful as token stripping is now. If they aren't trying to avoid a 4/3 (dorsal or turret primary) or 4/4 with ion cannon turret double tap then why? For VTG to work for the strongest double taps your risking a nasty return shot from most opponents which balances it out in my opinion. If it doesn't, as the rules look to imply, then it isn't worth 8 pts and you're better off with an empty slot or other upgrades.

i'm afraid i don't really understand this line of reasoning. whether it's balanced or not seems irrelevant. double tapping is extremely good, yes. HTG is what? hotshot gunner? hotshot gunner is also good, especially if you aim several ships at a single target. in general, you're better off with more ships and less upgrades, but you can still take good upgrades if you'd like to. i can assure you, my dear 98pt guri is a complete monster.

keep in mind that you can still double tap, it will just require pretty awesome flying to keep both of your arcs at the same target. also, double tapping versus two different targets is still very very good, just not nearly as good. imho, double tapping should be kept to a minimum. just think of what TLT did to 1.0. not fun.

9 minutes ago, meffo said:

imho, double tapping should be kept to a minimum. just think of what TLT did to 1.0. not fun.

You equating the VTG double tap interpretation (accounting for range requirement and both rolls being able to be modded by the defender) to 1.0 TLT's ability to effectively guarantee damage at range 3 is disturbing to say the least.

3 minutes ago, Mep said:

Actually veteran turret gunner is VERY clear on what weapon you're using. It makes it very clear it a primary weapon needs to be fired and you cannot use a turret arc that was already used.

This thinking is how people start adding words to cards that are not there. They quickly read the card, internalized and interpret it in their own way and come up with things like "the weapon is not taken into consideration" when the card clearly states what is to be done and clearly references the weapon types.

If it is a fixed primary weapon, it is not using a turret arc. Veteran turret gunner only references turret arcs in its check as to if a turret arc can be used. If the intent (and sure, it could be intended this way) for veteran turret gunner to not use an arc any weapon was fired from that round, then they can clearly state that on the card. However it isn't worded that way. FFG is really bad at wording things however, so no one really knows. For now, do what the card says.

of course, you're right about veteran turret gunner only triggering after you perform an attack with a primary weapon, i meant that it doesn't say what weapon you're using for the bonus attack granted by the card.

i still interpret the card and the rules like they're written, which means you cannot use veteran turret gunner to double tap out of the same standard arc, since that standard arc is also the turret arc you're trying to use.

it's all in this sentence: "The standard arc the turret arc is pointing to is a turret arc in addition to still being a standard arc." - which means it's still a turret arc even when you fire your primary out of it before trying to trigger veteran turret gunner. they're not different arcs, the arc is both the standard arc and the turret arc.

how do you interpret it differently? it's not using that arc when you fire primary out of it, it's only using half of what the arc is said to be according to the game mechanics at that point in time? i don't understand.

9 minutes ago, meffo said:

of course, you're right about veteran turret gunner only triggering after you perform an attack with a primary weapon, i meant that it doesn't say what weapon you're using for the bonus attack granted by the card.

i still interpret the card and the rules like they're written, which means you cannot use veteran turret gunner to double tap out of the same standard arc, since that standard arc is also the turret arc you're trying to use.

it's all in this sentence: "The standard arc the turret arc is pointing to is a turret arc in addition to still being a standard arc." - which means it's still a turret arc even when you fire your primary out of it before trying to trigger veteran turret gunner. they're not different arcs, the arc is both the standard arc and the turret arc.

how do you interpret it differently? it's not using that arc when you fire primary out of it, it's only using half of what the arc is said to be according to the game mechanics at that point in time? i don't understand.

I read it as saying that a standard arc and a turret arc are two different, separate things that can happen to share the same bounding lines on the ship token. When you fire a primary (non-turret) weapon out out the front, you are firing out of the Front Arc, which is a standard arc. If you then use Veteran Turret Gunner, you would then fire out of the Turret Arc, which is not a standard arc but uses the standard arc lines on the ship token to indicate the edges of the turret arc.

4 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

You equating the VTG double tap interpretation (accounting for range requirement and both rolls being able to be modded by the defender) to 1.0 TLT's ability to effectively guarantee damage at range 3 is disturbing to say the least.

i'm not equating them, no, just comparing them. i think VTG may be even more broken than TLT, though, if you're allowed to double tap out of the same arc. depends on future upgrades as well. i think it's fair to assume that there will be more powerful turrets released in the future. it can already do a lot more damage a lot quicker than a single TLT could (five damage from a y-wing compared to two in 2.0) - and even more than a double TLT ghost (five damage compared to four, assuming the ghost didn't fire its primary) could in every round. not to mention you can easily field four ships with turrets and a VTG already.

at least it's not easy to just run away and keep double tapping with VTG in comparison to what you could do with a ghost or miranda in 1.0, so it does encourage better flying. still totally broken imho, though.

It can be interpreted two different ways. The standard and turret arc become a single combined arc or the standard remains being a standard arc in addition to being a turret arc. The wording isn't clear enough to know if they meant to say the arcs are combined into one. One could interpret that way I suppose. The phrasing seems to indicated that standard arc remains a standard arc while the turret arc is using that arc. Two things, a turret arc in addition to a standard arc. The wording is such that they are two things, a turret arc and standard arc.

@meffo The problem is you are adding words that are not there because you hate TLT and don't want to see them return. First off. FFG had plenty of opportunity to nerf TLTs. They never did even though they nerfed everything else. I get the hate on them and I am not sad to see them go. But as other have pointed out, there seems to be some forethought into this issue with ship design and some ships not having a gunner slot, like the shadow caster. If you want to double tap with a ghost, you are really going to pay to do that. Other ships seem to be pretty mild, like Ywings. Sure they can double tap two pea shooters, but they aren't doing that at range 3, with double foci and predator.

Is double tapping that good with those ships when you could be running something else for the same cost that is more maneuverable and spits out more dice on the single attack?