So i might as well bring it here so *maybe* FFG can fix the wording on Turrets.

The debate is how this card (and others like it) interact with a primary weapon firing out of the same arc as the turret is pointed.

The debates lie in what that icon actually represents.

Is it {turret}, or {turret arc}?

The rules in the recent Rules Reference seem to not be clear enough as to what it means, so much so it has sparked debate on if you can fire your primary weapon from the standard front arc, then use VTG to fire your secondary turret weapon, out of the same arc.

I have my views on how i think it works, but im going to leave them out of this post. The point is, it isnt clear enough to be definitive.

The turret arc is a different arc from the primary arc, even if it's overlaid on it.

Alex confirmed this at Euros and the Rules Ref supports this interpretation. That's no debate.

7 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Alex confirmed this at Euros 

I don't suppose there is reference to this that can be linked? Keep in mind Alex also forgets how to barrel roll under the 2e rules.

10 hours ago, Lyianx said:

I don't suppose there is reference to this that can be linked? Keep in mind Alex also forgets how to barrel roll under the 2e rules.

No, it was a conversation in person.

But he's not even from Star Wars...

On 8/4/2018 at 2:53 PM, Lyianx said:

So i might as well bring it here so *maybe* FFG can fix the wording on Turrets.

The debate is how this card (and others like it) interact with a primary weapon firing out of the same arc as the turret is pointed.

The debates lie in what that icon actually represents.

Is it {turret}, or {turret arc}?

The rules in the recent Rules Reference seem to not be clear enough as to what it means, so much so it has sparked debate on if you can fire your primary weapon from the standard front arc, then use VTG to fire your secondary turret weapon, out of the same arc.

I have my views on how i think it works, but im going to leave them out of this post. The point is, it isnt clear enough to be definitive.

I suggest those having trouble understanding that the symbol means turret arc which is separate from the primary arc regardless of where it is pointed at read the ARCS section of the Rules Reference starting on the lower right of page 3 and ending with Firing Arcs on page 4......

Have we reached a point of “settled law” on this yet? If I use Veteran Turret Gunner on the Falcon do a get to make an attack out of each turret firing arc?

The rulebook under the entire page of Arcs related rules specifically writes them out as completely separate firing arcs, but are all considered firing arcs. If the blanket term Firing Arc is used then any valid attacking arc is factored in, but in this case it has a symbol so it is specifically a type of firing arc.

VetGunner does work IF you have a primary nonturret arc to fire out the front/rear (which happens to be where your turret arc is) because your nonturret weapon is NOT a [turret arc] attack, it is a [front 90 arc] attack.

Similarly, PWTs do not have a forward arc for their primary attacks either, they either flatout dont have one or only applies to missiles/torpedos/cannons. Gone are the days of the Lancer ruling on "if its forward its a normal firing arc"

Also the twin-PWTs do get to fire out of both. They are not considered one arc, they are two opposite arcs. Second to last sentence before going to blanket Firing Arc rules:
A ship with a double turret arc indicator has two [turret icon] in opposite directions.

I.e. they are considered separate, but fixed opposite from each other to prevent 180 firing arcs

Now here comes the tricky part, if you fire with Han gunner at In7, and get action from lets say Cracken later that engagement phase, to turn your turret, can you fire at same direction, at your normal In?

I disagree Vineheart01, gone are the days of primary and secondary arcs. You now only have firing arcs. If you use a firing arcs you can’t use it again with VTG.

46 minutes ago, Redblock said:

Now here comes the tricky part, if you fire with Han gunner at In7, and get action from lets say Cracken later th  at engagement phase, to turn your turret, can you fire at same direction, at your normal In?

i don't think so, no way. veteran turret gunner gives you a bonus attack after you've attacked. if you cannot perform it at the initiative you engage at, there is nothing that indicates you would get to activate that ship again in that engagement phase.

1 hour ago, meffo said:

i don't think so, no way. veteran turret gunner gives you a bonus attack after you've attacked. if you cannot perform it at the initiative you engage at, there is nothing that indicates you would get to activate that ship again in that engagement phase.

That wasn't even close to the question, though.

The way I read this was you after you make a primary attack you may fire with a different turreted weapon. So you can shoot the primary gun from a y-wing and then shoot with its equipped turret. This is why the y wing includes this card.

Veteran Turret Gunner does not say you get to make another primary attack. There is no reason why you would put this on a falcon. It would go great on the shadow caster ..... if it had a gunner slot.

VTG states that after a PRIMARY WEAPON attack, you may fire a second attack from a TURRET you have not already use. No mention is made of direction restriction. A y-wing can therefore shoot forwards with its cannons (primary) then shoot forwards with its turret, as it has not already used the turret that turn.

8 hours ago, Pooleman said:

Have we reached a point of “settled law” on this yet? If I use Veteran Turret Gunner on the Falcon do a get to make an attack out of each turret firing arc?

I mean, that seems like the most basic, intended use.

52 minutes ago, Mep said:

The way I read this was you after you make a primary attack you may fire with a different turreted weapon. So you can shoot the primary gun from a y-wing and then shoot with its equipped turret. This is why the y wing includes this card.

Veteran Turret Gunner does not say you get to make another primary attack. There is no reason why you would put this on a falcon. It would go great on the shadow caster ..... if it had a gunner slot.

I disagree with this.

Here's a line from the Rules Reference section on Arcs: "A ship with a double turret arc indicator has two [mobile arc symbol] in opposite directions. [p.4]" To my eyes, this looks like a Falcon could use both sides of the bowtie to attack. While VTurretG doesn't specify primary, it also doesn't specify secondary or rule out primary weapon turrets at all. It specifies the kind of arc it can shoot from, and there are two different [mobile arc symbol] a Falcon has to shoot with. [Mobile arc symbol] can be from a secondary weapon, such as Dorsal or Ion Turrets, or from a Primary weapon.

*edit*

@Vineheart01 said something pretty similar to this.

11 hours ago, dragegutt21 said:

I disagree Vineheart01, gone are the days of primary and secondary arcs. You now only have firing arcs. If you use a firing arcs you can’t use it again with VTG.

Rules i quoted specifically and clearly state dual arc PWTs have "two turret arcs" which means they are completely separate.

Vet Gunner does not say you cannot fire from [turret icon] or [dual turret icon], it only has the first. Literally nothing in this game EXCEPT describing what dual arcs even are references dual arcs, they reference single arcs.

Vet Gunner you attack from a [turret icon] you did not attack with this round. Since the rules 100% flatout state "dual arcs have two [turret icon]s" that means if i fire left and someone is in my right, i can fire right too because that is a different [turret icon].

On 9/15/2018 at 7:05 PM, thespaceinvader said:

That wasn't even close to the question, though.

no? hmmm... i think you're onto something! han solo gunner confused me, since it states you may perform an attack, but not that you have to engage to do so, so i assume that means you can attack with han solo gunner first and later on engage at your own initiative, instead of having to engage to perform the attack from han solo and thus not being able to engage again later on.

this doesn't change the fact that you still can't do it though, since veteran turret gunner states that you can perform a turret attack after you've performed a primary attack. after means "the effect resolves immediately following the timing specified", not any time later.

i suppose that means you can trigger the effect of veteran turret gunner twice during the same engagement, though. assuming you have both han solo gunner and veteran turret gunner equipped and that you have two turret arcs (a double turret primary is the only way this'll work, since you have to use a primary attack for veteran turret gunner to do her job). first han solo lets you perform a turret attack at initiative 7, then you trigger veteran turret gunner and fire out of your second turret arc. after that engagement goes on and you may get the opportunity to move you arc (with airen cracken or what have you), before engaging and firing your primary out of one of your arcs, triggering veteran turret gunner again and firing out of your remaining arc. crazy! that could spread a lot of fire in all directions. not very likely you'd ever be able to do it, though. especially considering there are no ships in the game that have two gunner slots, as far as i know.

that is very interesting indeed.

19 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

Rules i quoted specifically and clearly state dual arc PWTs have "two turret arcs" which means they are completely separate.

Vet Gunner does not say you cannot fire from [turret icon] or [dual turret icon], it only has the first. Literally nothing in this game EXCEPT describing what dual arcs even are references dual arcs, they reference single arcs.

Vet Gunner you attack from a [turret icon] you did not attack with this round. Since the rules 100% flatout state "dual arcs have two [turret icon]s" that means if i fire left and someone is in my right, i can fire right too because that is a different [turret icon].

That wasn’t what I was disagreeing with. I’m disagreeing with the statement that you can shoot out of the same arc twice with VTG, first with primary and then again with turret weapon.

21 minutes ago, meffo said:

no? hmmm... i think you're onto something! han solo gunner confused me, since it states you may perform an attack, but not that you have to engage to do so, so i assume that means you can attack with han solo gunner first and later on engage at your own initiative, instead of having to engage to perform the attack from han solo and thus not being able to engage again later on.

this doesn't change the fact that you still can't do it though, since veteran turret gunner states that you can perform a turret attack after you've performed a primary attack. after means "the effect resolves immediately following the timing specified", not any time later.

i suppose that means you can trigger the effect of veteran turret gunner twice during the same engagement, though. assuming you have both han solo gunner and veteran turret gunner equipped and that you have two turret arcs (a double turret primary is the only way this'll work, since you have to use a primary attack for veteran turret gunner to do her job). first han solo lets you perform a turret attack at initiative 7, then you trigger veteran turret gunner and fire out of your second turret arc. after that engagement goes on and you may get the opportunity to move you arc (with airen cracken or what have you), before engaging and firing your primary out of one of your arcs, triggering veteran turret gunner again and firing out of your remaining arc. crazy! that could spread a lot of fire in all directions. not very likely you'd ever be able to do it, though. especially considering there are no ships in the game that have two gunner slots, as far as i know.

that is very interesting indeed.

Which is still not the question.

The question is whether the following works.

Chewie has Han Gunner, shoots Vader at 7 from arc A, and preventing him shooting again from arc A.

Airen shoots at 5, gives Chewie a free action.

Chewie uses that free action to rotate arc, arc A is now where arc B was and vice versa.

Can Chewie now shoot Vader again, but this time out of arc B, which has been rotated into position?

I'd argue yes. They're different arcs. And consider if Vader was across a quadrant line, where the case becomes clearer.

But it's really not 100% clear, especially as the two sides of the bowtie are both functionally and visually identical.

I really wish they'd made the tokens have two different colours/marks/whatever then the arcs could be visually distinguished.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

Which is still not the question.

The question is whether the following works.

Chewie has Han Gunner, shoots Vader at 7 from arc A, and preventing him shooting again from arc A.

Airen shoots at 5, gives Chewie a free action.

Chewie uses that free action to rotate arc, arc A is now where arc B was and vice versa.

Can Chewie now shoot Vader again, but this time out of arc B, which has been rotated into position?

I'd argue yes. They're different arcs. And consider if Vader was across a quadrant line, where the case becomes clearer.

But it's really not 100% clear, especially as the two sides of the bowtie are both functionally and visually identical.

I really wish they'd made the tokens have two different colours/marks/whatever then the arcs could be visually distinguished.

Han's ability applies to the turret he shoots with, not the arc he fires out of. If you're able to switch which turret is facing into the arc he shot in between his shot at init 7 and when the ship he's on fires during its normal engagement you can fire the second turret at the target he shot at.

35 minutes ago, meffo said:

no? hmmm... i think you're onto something! han solo gunner confused me, since it states you may perform an attack, but not that you have to engage to do so, so i assume that means you can attack with han solo gunner first and later on engage at your own initiative, instead of having to engage to perform the attack from han solo and thus not being able to engage again later on.

this doesn't change the fact that you still can't do it though, since veteran turret gunner states that you can perform a turret attack after you've performed a primary attack. after means "the effect resolves immediately following the timing specified", not any time later.

i suppose that means you can trigger the effect of veteran turret gunner twice during the same engagement, though. assuming you have both han solo gunner and veteran turret gunner equipped and that you have two turret arcs (a double turret primary is the only way this'll work, since you have to use a primary attack for veteran turret gunner to do her job). first han solo lets you perform a turret attack at initiative 7, then you trigger veteran turret gunner and fire out of your second turret arc. after that engagement goes on and you may get the opportunity to move you arc (with airen cracken or what have you), before engaging and firing your primary out of one of your arcs, triggering veteran turret gunner again and firing out of your remaining arc. crazy! that could spread a lot of fire in all directions. not very likely you'd ever be able to do it, though. especially considering there are no ships in the game that have two gunner slots, as far as i know.

that is very interesting indeed.

VTG's ability lists it as a bonus attack which is limited to 1 per round per ship.

ok, the question is if they're different arcs if you move them. sorry, i was just thinking about the veteran turret gunner. that is by no means clear. a clarification should be added to the rules reference.

how ever, reading about it and adding the turret arc indicator symbol to my vocabulary, i'm starting to think they're the same turret arc even if you move the turret arc. there is nothing stating they're different arcs just because you move them anywhere.

and, yes of course you can only perform one bonus attack per round. i feel dumb now.

how ever, hans ability says nothing about the weapon he's using, it's only the turret arc symbol again, meaning you could fire with the same weapon (for example primary) when you engage at your own initiative, just not out of the same arc.

this is pretty clearly stated in the rules reference at page 19. the symbol means turret arc.

35 minutes ago, dragegutt21 said:

That wasn’t what I was disagreeing with. I’m disagreeing with the statement that you can shoot out of the same arc twice with VTG, first with primary and then again with turret weapon.

Even if they are pointing in the same direction, you get to shoot with a different turret arc. A primary, non-turret, is not a turret arc and therefore any turret arc would be different. This is why there is a Han Solo debate. If you can shoot with Han and then rotate the turret, you can shoot twice out of the same side since they are two different turret arcs that happen to point in the same direction.

58 minutes ago, dragegutt21 said:

That wasn’t what I was disagreeing with. I’m disagreeing with the statement that you can shoot out of the same arc twice with VTG, first with primary and then again with turret weapon.

When using VTG you're firing out of a turret arc that isn't the same firing arc as the primary weapon you fired regardless of where it is pointing. Turret arcs can be moved to overlap different Standard Arcs. Nothing in the rules states that Standard Arcs or Firing Arcs are locked out of being fired from again that round after they have been shot from once (with the exception of requirements listed on individual upgrade cards that only apply as those cards state when those cards are in play and their abilities are used). What are you basing your disagreement with being able to double tap out of the same Standard Arc with VTG on?

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Which is still not the question.

The question is whether the following works.

Chewie has Han Gunner, shoots Vader at 7 from arc A, and preventing him shooting again from arc A.

Airen shoots at 5, gives Chewie a free action.

Chewie uses that free action to rotate arc, arc A is now where arc B was and vice versa.

Can Chewie now shoot Vader again, but this time out of arc B, which has been rotated into position?

I'd argue yes. They're different arcs. And consider if Vader was across a quadrant line, where the case becomes clearer.

But it's really not 100% clear, especially as the two sides of the bowtie are both functionally and visually identical.

I really wish they'd made the tokens have two different colours/marks/whatever then the arcs could be visually distinguished.

This doesn't work because the rotate arc action specifically doesn't let you:

• If a ship rotates a double turret arc indicator, it must select the other two standard arcs it was not already selecting.