As a player of both games, I don’t understand this IA vs Legion thing. Why everyone compares these two games? They are in completely different genre.
IA is a board game, which happens to use miniatures just as a graphic element (the fact that you can use tokens instead of miniatures proves this), while Legion is a full-fledged miniature wargame.
22 hours ago, belderone42 said:As a player of both games, I don’t understand this IA vs Legion thing. Why everyone compares these two games? They are in completely different genre.
IA is a board game, which happens to use miniatures just as a graphic element (the fact that you can use tokens instead of miniatures proves this), while Legion is a full-fledged miniature wargame.
Agreed! I too, think they are different games. However, they do share at least one thing. They both have a competitive mode fully supported by FFG with tournaments. Before Legion, there was no question to ask yourself. As a new player who wanted to dive in a competitive star wars game with cool miniatures and attend tournaments, the answer was Imperial Assault. Now if you ask yourself the same question, it's less straight forward.
With the rise of Legion, I suppose it coincided with IA receiving less attention (Time between expansion releases increased) since (I assume) some of IA developpment ressources were moved to Legion developpment department, and I suppose people started to fear that could be the downfall of IA. That could have contributed to the IA vs Legion. But we've since received 2 app campaigns and a new (small) box. So I think we're ok!
I'd chalk it up to gamer identity politics. I've talked many of my fellow IA players down from the ledge over the last year since it was announced.
I get the reflexive fear, but let's get real here, Imperial Assault sales aren't solely determined by Skirmish tournament attendance, and will always work as a dungeon crawl adventure. Skirmish was a design afterthought and it shows with what you need to wrangle just to show up to an official event;
A big bag of puzzle pieces you're hoping you don't lose, or some sweet mats that aren't cheap but not too pricey (based on $20 MSRP) but are in practice a pain in the butt to acquire. People use printed mats for local things but if you don't have the official mats and go to a GenCon type place, you better keep track of all those little 1x2 pieces you brought.
The game itself is good for probably 3-4 rounds on "regulation" time and often spills over as people scramble to start a new round before the buzzer so they can try and swing the game, then slow down to a crawl because now the clock is gone.
All this is to say that the game itself is that good that despite these and many other hurdles to play it as a Skirmish only competitive game, people make it work. I think that's why players are protective of IA, because it requires a lot more of an investment across the board than having some stuff to play something like X-Wing 2.0 as a new player.
Legion is only a 1v1 head to head game and is produced a lot more efficiently in that regard, which makes it waaaay easier to focus in on what you want to collect in terms of faction and units. Being the newer game, it has the FOMO-factor and Newness going for it, but also doesn't really have a back catalog of "must haves" that people need to dig up.
The joke's on Legion players though when you realize that you actually need to have some kind of terrain solution going, which is no problem if your local store has you covered, or you've played other mini war-games before and have some appropriate terrain already. Too bad nobody at FFG had any such terrain laying around, as I've seen two major events with Legion tournaments disperse pictures of sad terrain distribution, which really skews the game in one direction.
I never thought in all this time that the Legion meta wouldn't be about some broken unit, but about building up to account for sparse terrain and high-number-of attack-dice attacks to tear up all that exposed infantry, rather than considering balanced forces versus doubling down on a gimmick like is often the plan in these games.
So it's really weird when you think about it; IA and Legion players both have a terrain problem in their own way. You'd think we'd all just sit around the proverbial bar, knocking back a couple while shaking our heads, instead of trying to make some kind of weird us vs them issue.
In light of all this, I got a laugh at @IanSolo_FFG 's comment about
QuoteThey both have a competitive mode fully supported by FFG with tournaments.
Anyone that was at Canadian Nationals back in March is still waiting on their prize support, 6 months later with no communication to the players from FFG about what the deal is, especially now that NOVA has happened and their prizes (which should be identical) are out on eBay and other trade portals now.
Bad distribution of official IA mats and awful terrain provisions for Legion at their Premier events doesn't feel like full support to me either.
This is where X-Wing gets to come back and reclaim some ground from these players as well; established community for a game that can be played on any flat surface with a 3x3' square taped off. The star mats we all love to use are great for theme and moving ships around, but it's all cosmetic. You can get away with a picnic tablecloth with a square taped off and it's still just as serviceable for the X-Wing.
I feel like Legion needed standardized terrain like RuneWars has, at least for tournament play, to ensure some kind of consistent coverage.
Don't take all this as sour grapes. Again, this kind of adversity is what makes the IA players I've met over the years at events, especially the Premier ones, I think some of the most solid (in the professional demeanour sense) players of any tabletop community. You have to really like this game to keep going with competitive Skirmish. It asks a lot from you, and doesn't always pay it back in the conveniences you would expect from other Organized Play situations across FFG or other games. But that's what makes IA players so virtuous in that regard; it's the strong (us) protecting the weak (the minds behind the Skirmish logistics) from totally losing their jobs over this phoned in OP framework.
Know that by continuing to give it a shot, some developer somewhere can still get their avocado toast. You're doing God's work, friends.
We're their heroes. Not the ones they deserve, but the ones they need.
Now I feel like Bill Pulman needs to shout "Independence Day" or something...
9 minutes ago, cleardave said:Anyone that was at Canadian Nationals back in March is still waiting on their prize support, 6 months later with no communication to the players from FFG about what the deal is, especially now that NOVA has happened and their prizes (which should be identical) are out on eBay and other trade portals now.
I had no idea. I'm no skirmish player and I admit I was "assuming" so from kits and prizes articles FFG publishes from time to time. I exclusively play campaign (original/app) and to me, I see Legion as possibility to acquire figures in order to vary my IA figure poses. Well at least I'll risk saying that if there is a positive side to all that it could be that I made you laugh on a sad situation. That's 6 months now without actually knowing what's going on, geez!!
Like I alluded to, most doom and gloom for IA is rooted in Skirmish. The only way you're writing this off as a content drought as a campaign player is if you've played each campaign through at least twice, and did it with different heroes/Imperial classes on the second lap. At that point I think your entertainment dollars were well spent.
Skirmish has many wrinkles to get it going as an OP game, but the dedicated base keeps on playing all the same. It's just not very accessible for new people, especially with X-Wing 2.0 launching officially next week which is super accessible for new people, and easier to facilitate, to make a comparison.
I think a sense of humour is critical for navigating through things like Skirmish, and most of my soap-boxing here is done with some irony attached, for my own entertainment if nothing else.
As an app player though, you're probably getting hungry like the skirmish wolves for more. I did the first one and haven't gotten around to Jabba's campaign, but I probably will when the fall hits. Much quicker and easier to play and resolve than the analog campaigns, for sure.
1 hour ago, cleardave said:I did the first one and haven't gotten around to Jabba's campaign, but I probably will when the fall hits. Much quicker and easier to play and resolve than the analog campaigns, for sure.
For reference: four playthroughs of Jabba's Realm app campaign in 3 weeks and 2 days.
31 minutes ago, a1bert said:For reference: four playthroughs of Jabba's Realm app campaign in 3 weeks and 2 days.
Amazing.
I'm assuming you're running it with a full current collection. How was the variance with the app's deployment group selections and campaign hero allies? Did the carbonite Han tile come into play in the game at all?
21 minutes ago, cleardave said:I'm assuming you're running it with a full current collection. How was the variance with the app's deployment group selections and campaign hero allies? Did the carbonite Han tile come into play in the game at all?
It was everything minus Tyrants of Lothal (so the next play with my group will have potential for something new). Different four heroes each time, didn't use Gideon or Davith (played Davith in the FoFF campaign with other players).
I hadn't played FoFF with the new groups yet, so encountered a lot of new things in each play. Which missions you play and which choices you make also affect the types of groups you get...
You can choose between a few ally encounters, and I think their probabilities change depending on the heroes. (There is one escort encounter with a random unique ally as well.)
I don't remember if JR15B was used, the story isn't about Han anyway.
54 minutes ago, a1bert said:I don't remember if JR15B was used, the story isn't about Han anyway.
I meant more along the lines of if a mission has some throw-away reference to the frozen Han tile. Not so much as part of a story arc but just a thing because it's there.
Glad to hear the tag along allies changed up. There's so many of them at this point, and I'm glad all of these figures have a home in that replayability.
18 hours ago, cleardave said:I feel like Legion needed standardized terrain like RuneWars has, at least for tournament play, to ensure some kind of consistent coverage.
Yes!
I don’t play tournaments for either game, so that will influence my take on this.
First, the games are VERY different. IA campaign is so far from Legion I don’t think that part needs to be addressed.
IA skirmish is a very tightly focused game, with typically small lists and small figure counts. It deals much more in character and narrative theme. Witness the fact we have Spectres as a list archetype in the current meta. Legion by contrast has few characters, but LOTS of nameless troopers. A minimal legal build will have at least 12 troopers, a commander, and whatever else to fill out 800 points. By comparison, my initial imperial list experiments feature 18 troopers, Vader, an AT-ST and two speeder bikes. That is not a likely deployment in IA.
Legion is more simulation oriented, while IA is more narrative. The AT-ST of IA can turn and move however it wants, within its movement point allowance. It doesn’t have to be facing something to shoot it. The Legion version has a 90 degree fixed forward firing arc and has to either deal with forward momentum to move and turn or sacrifice a move to make a 90 degree pivot. That’s DRASTICALLY different from our IA version.
Simply put, the games are different animals and don’t really compete with each other. They offer very different experiences for different interests in a galaxy far, far away.
1 hour ago, MarekMandalore said:The AT-ST of IA can turn and move however it wants, within its movement point allowance. It doesn’t have to be facing something to shoot it. The Legion version has a 90 degree fixed forward firing arc and has to either deal with forward momentum to move and turn or sacrifice a move to make a 90 degree pivot. That’s DRASTICALLY different from our IA version.
And I thought IA walkers were hard to move with. Seems like I'm not going to play Legion.
1 hour ago, NagyLaci said:And I thought IA walkers were hard to move with. Seems like I'm not going to play Legion.
One thing to consider- the map isn’t nearly as restrictive in Legion. It’s mostly open, designed for 6’ by 3’, with some bits of terrain here and there to block line of sight and slightly impair movement. But for the difficult maneuvering, there’s more space to do it.
Really its no more difficult to maneuver than the ships in Armada.
20 hours ago, NagyLaci said:And I thought IA walkers were hard to move with. Seems like I'm not going to play Legion.
I assure you, the Legion AT-ST is MUCH easier to move than an IA walker.
zzzzzzzzzzz
I've yet to play Legion, but unless it's my imagination, this forum seems a lot quieter since it came out.
Possibly that may be due to the release schedule for IA also slowing to a trickle, but one way or another...
6 hours ago, Bitterman said:I've yet to play Legion, but unless it's my imagination, this forum seems a lot quieter since it came out.
Possibly that may be due to the release schedule for IA also slowing to a trickle, but one way or another...
If you peek in on the Legion forums, they appear even less active than our forum here...
There's a lull in Star Wars overall (except for flame wars and nonsense, of course).
I think part of the lack of forum activity is that a lot of the hardcore skirmish players in particular do a lot of posting in other places now as well (Zion's Finest Slack channel, Board Wars Discord, there's a Facebook group, etc.). I don't know that it's necessarily tied to Legion at all.
Ok. I'm awake now. (I can't even believe this thread is still going).
I live in one of the biggest Star Wars gaming communities in Canada. I play in the home of PTL (those of you who play X-wing know who they are) and the Armada World champ. Here are my observations :
1. Nobody plays competitive Legion.
2. Nobody I know plays Legion.
3. Legion gets played, but it's not that often and not by many people. (in fact X-wing folk get pissed when they take up 2 tables for their 2 hour+ games)
There does not seem to be any indication that any of this would change.
2 minutes ago, NeverBetTheFett said:Ok. I'm awake now. (I can't even believe this thread is still going).
I live in one of the biggest Star Wars gaming communities in Canada. I play in the home of PTL (those of you who play X-wing know who they are) and the Armada World champ. Here are my observations :
1. Nobody plays competitive Legion.
2. Nobody I know plays Legion.
3. Legion gets played, but it's not that often and not by many people. (in fact X-wing folk get pissed when they take up 2 tables for their 2 hour+ games)
There does not seem to be any indication that any of this would change.
I haven't played it, but I read the rules for it. It does seem overly indulgent. While the miniatures are beautiful, I was surprised at their scale for land warfare game. The cost point is really high, and it is a game with an expectation out of the gate of an investment in miniature painting supplies and skill. Trying to break into the Rune Wars and War Hammer player base to sell them Star Wars seemed a fool's errand from the get go, but I wasn't sure.
4 minutes ago, Rikalonius said:I haven't played it, but I read the rules for it. It does seem overly indulgent. While the miniatures are beautiful, I was surprised at their scale for land warfare game. The cost point is really high, and it is a game with an expectation out of the gate of an investment in miniature painting supplies and skill. Trying to break into the Rune Wars and War Hammer player base to sell them Star Wars seemed a fool's errand from the get go, but I wasn't sure.
I can't agree more!!! The first thing I thought was that it was too late to try to break into the former Warhammer players. So many have moved onto X-wing and Destiny, which you can play right out of the box. Now you're asking them to spend hundreds of dollars and painting hours to play a game that takes literally hours to play? I bought the core, read the rules, thought the plastic was cheap, and the game boring, and then sold it.
2 hours ago, thestag said:If you peek in on the Legion forums, they appear even less active than our forum here...
How so? I only took the briefest of glimpses, but that forum has had eight threads updated today (in my timezone), to this forum's three (plus this one). Eight active threads isn't exactly overwhelmingly busy , and no doubt a more scientific approach might give different / more detailed results, but still...
Not that it really matters either way, mind you.
Edited by BittermanI have been playing IA for a couple years now with my sons and we have been loving it. I still enjoy the game, especially now that the app has been added. I have also taken up Legion (as I do like painting minis, terrain and such). Both are very different games and I like both equally.
13 minutes ago, Bitterman said:How so? I only took the briefest of glimpses, but that forum has had eight threads updated today (in my timezone), to this forum's three (plus this one). Eight active threads isn't exactly overwhelmingly busy , and no doubt a more scientific approach might give different / more detailed results, but still...
Not that it really matters either way, mind you.
It was too early in the morning for me. I only glanced at the main forum and not the subs... Moar coffee! ☕