Just now, Jike said:

There's absolutely no comparison between the 1st to 2nd edition X-Wing change and the WH-AoS change. X-Wing remains pretty much the same game mechanically, with tweaks and changes here and there. AoS was a completely new game from the ground up. The X-Wing change is more like the switch from 7th-8th edition WH. Some big changes, but fundamentally the same game.

I still remain confused about how the App requirement makes it a completely different game. I remain confused about the resistance to the App/web-based squad builder in general though.

I absolutely agree with you about WH -> AoS. The first went from a game of ranked units to a game of mobs moving across the field. Very different feel to it! That alone destroyed what the game was about.

X-wing started out as a game about flying better than your opponents. The developers themselves talk about how it has become less important with all the things that were added on to 1.0. Moving to 2.0 is a return to what 1.0 actually was to start with. The rules are all the same with some minor tweaks to things. The core concepts are all still there.

6 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

For me, that's a little bit of the bummer. I don't want a game that has no titles and variants for each ship. I liked that. Same chassis; 3 options.

Granted, stapling adaptive ailerons and the x1 are nice. But I want Defender and Scyk options back.

Going back to the start of the game, with fewer upgrades and less pilots thins the game out too much for me, even if there are more ships to choose from overall. I would like listbuilding to be more than "choose 3 ships, assign one pilot talent, fly."

I do miss my Scyks being different. I am willing to sacrifice them on the altar of streamlined, though. You had so many things stapled onto cards:

PTL on any Interceptor

Alliance Refit

Adaptive Ailerons

Special Ops Training

X1 title

V1 title

Phantom I and II

Ghost title

Vaksaii title

Starviper title

...the list goes on and on

15 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

Or who dont like the APP. That is the #1 issue

While the App isn't going to affect things for me, I can understand where you're coming from. That said, I think there are easy workarounds.

If you stick a post-it note on the back, transfer the point costs and upgrade slots from the PDF, and put the cards in clear sleeves, you've got the exact same system you had before.

12 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

For me, that's a little bit of the bummer. I don't want a game that has no titles and variants for each ship. I liked that. Same chassis; 3 options.

Right, but this still exists in at least one case in 2.0 (the gunboat has it's configs, which mirror its titles in 1.0). So it's entirely possible we'll get more of these as the ship expansions come out. I mean it kind of feels like that's actually the main type of thing the config slot could be used for! And really, there weren't very many of these in 1.0?

Defender, gunboat (which is in 2.0), TIE bomber, Scyk, those are the only ones who really had "ship variants" through titles that I can think of (I might be missing 1 or 2, but it definitely wasn't common in 1.0!).

57 minutes ago, evcameron said:

Right, but this still exists in at least one case in 2.0 (the gunboat has it's configs, which mirror its titles in 1.0). So it's entirely possible we'll get more of these as the ship expansions come out. I mean it kind of feels like that's actually the main type of thing the config slot could be used for! And really, there weren't very many of these in 1.0?

Defender, gunboat (which is in 2.0), TIE bomber, Scyk, those are the only ones who really had "ship variants" through titles that I can think of (I might be missing 1 or 2, but it definitely wasn't common in 1.0!).

Well, a lot of the "variants" would probably be called "fixes" by the crowd at large (like Vaksai, for example).

B-Wing had E2, Royal Guard Interceptors, A-Wing Chardaan Refit, would all count in my mind. Plus, the YT-1300 should get a lot more named/unique ships. It would be nice to see the T-65 get some -B and -XJ titles.

But, that starts to smack of "needless narrative," so I doubt it will ever happen.

59 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well, a lot of the "variants" would probably be called "fixes" by the crowd at large (like Vaksai, for example).

B-Wing had E2, Royal Guard Interceptors, A-Wing Chardaan Refit, would all count in my mind. Plus, the YT-1300 should get a lot more named/unique ships. It would be nice to see the T-65 get some -B and -XJ titles.

But, that starts to smack of "needless narrative," so I doubt it will ever happen.

E2 I definitely missed in my list. But Royal Guard is just built into the interceptor now, Chardaan was just a point cost reduction. Vaksai is kind of built in (they get the mods, and the base price was dropped to be reasonable). But I do agree, more titles and "configs" would be cool to see, hopefully they explore that as they re-release each of the ships!

28 minutes ago, evcameron said:

Chardaan was just a point cost reduction.

Chardaan refit removed the ordnance capacity, making the ship a straight guns-only fighter.

In game terms, it is a point reduction.

In military terms, it is a variant.

My local group seems to be all excited for 2.0, even older players want to jump back in, as its a reboot...though some are thinking of focusing on just one faction for now.

On 8/29/2018 at 8:04 AM, YourHucklebrry said:

While the App isn't going to affect things for me, I can understand where you're coming from. That said, I think there are easy workarounds.

If you stick a post-it note on the back, transfer the point costs and upgrade slots from the PDF, and put the cards in clear sleeves, you've got the exact same system you had before.

Except you need to use the app to do your squad building that way. If you still need the app it isnt a work around.

Even if you transcribe the whole pdf with various pricing onto notes you put eith the cards, thats a lot of effort you need to repeat every time FFG adjust totals. Its a really silly system

20 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

Except you need to use the app to do your squad building that way. If you still need the app it isnt a work around.

Even if you transcribe the whole pdf with various pricing onto notes you put eith the cards, thats a lot of effort you need to repeat every time FFG adjust totals. Its a really silly system

That’s assuming every point cost changes with each update, which is unlikely. It’s far more probable that the scheduled point updates will only affect a few cards at a time, thus updating should be much easier than a complete overhaul.

13 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

That’s assuming every point cost changes with each update, which is unlikely. It’s far more probable that the scheduled point updates will only affect a few cards at a time, thus updating should be much easier than a complete overhaul.

Agreed that itll only be some changes, but you'll need to keep up to date and unless they do a front page post about patch notes it will be easy to miss. Its just unnecessary to leave the point totals off the cards.

The card text may be innaccurate either way because of errata, so they should just print the cost on the cards for future releases. Save us all some work

23 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

Agreed that itll only be some changes, but you'll need to keep up to date and unless they do a front page post about patch notes it will be easy to miss. Its just unnecessary to leave the point totals off the cards.

The card text may be innaccurate either way because of errata, so they should just print the cost on the cards for future releases. Save us all some work

But then you have the people who will throw a fit when something like printed point costs are off, so there is a reason to leave off something you know is mutable. Card text isn’t suppose to be, and thus far in 2.0 has only been given errata to fix mistakes and explain things rather than change things for game balance.

Changing points is planned on, so is left out. Erratas aren’t planned, so the game text is left on.

Lastly, putting points on cards saves you time. It does nothing for me and can be a deterrent to others.

2 hours ago, SabineKey said:

But then you have the people who will throw a fit when something like printed point costs are off, so there is a reason to leave off something you know is mutable. Card text isn’t suppose to be, and thus far in 2.0 has only been given errata to fix mistakes and explain things rather than change things for game balance.

Changing points is planned on, so is left out. Erratas aren’t planned, so the game text is left on.

Lastly, putting points on cards saves you time. It does nothing for me and can be a deterrent to others.

The points wouldnt hurt your enjoyment or slow you down if they were printed though, you could just ignore them. Their absence does however screw the casual playerbase

I’m sympathetic to your problem...to a point.

We’ve already seen that printed material that changes can cauuse a headache in general. The Jumpmaster losing upgrade slots is a prime example. It leads to people turning up to an event with lists that are illegal due to incorrect information on the card. That is more damaging than card text change. If the ability is reworded or clarified in an errata, your list is still legal you just need to change how you play.

If the point are different or slots removed, suddenly your list could be 201 points and thus illegal, or 189 and suddenly you are not playing an optimal list.

One or the biggest issues I think FFG had in version 1 was not being able to change point costs. Sure, they could release an upgrade that made a ship cheaper, but then people had to wait for it, they had to then buy thst product. It wasn’t a very consumer friendly thing to do. Futhermore, they could only decrease points, not increase. If a ship was undercosted and they released an upgrade that increase its cost but gave it a new ability that wasn’t reflective of the upgrades cost people would just say ‘it’s not worth it’ and not equip it.

Not having the points on the card makes the game easier to balance. Does it make things harder for the casual player? Maybe, I’m a casual player and I don’t find it an inconvenience, but that is just me. Even so, there are threat cards, and a lot of new players may not even realise there were points on the cards. They will just download the app, or get the PDF some way and get on with it.

Writing points on sleeves is something I am going to be doing because I too like to sometimes sit down at the store and build and I don’t have a squad builder open. I will concede that we don’t know how often points will be updated, but I think it will be something they post in the news section, and if not there will definitely be forum posts talking about recent point changes.

If you then go to an event and not check if the points have changed between when you made the list and the event, that is on you and you alone.

Workaround and solutions to your problem have been offered and yet you continue to stubbornly say 'Nope!' Should be printed and I shouldn't have to do any extra work' the height of arrogance to expect a key change (that is for the benefit of the whole community) just so you don't have to use an app.

YOU have made a decision to not use the app. YOU have set pointless boundaries. YOU have decided not to use workarounds. So I declare this YOUR problem, not this game’s.

Either get the app and suck it up or shut your bellyaching about it and write the costs on sleeves.

Also your idea of printed points and digital points is so ridiculous! If they can be ignored by 50% of the community, then should it be a thing anyway? Now you’ve made a new problem. ‘Okay, I’m a new player and I am going to a tournament the weekend...which points do I use?’ Or better yet, a new player might have gotten used to the printed points and not be aware there are different points for competitive play. Your solution to, once again YOUR problem, has just created another can of worms and it’s own barrier to entry.

3 hours ago, Ebak said:

I’m sympathetic to your problem...to a point.

(clip)

Workaround and solutions to your problem have been offered and yet you continue to stubbornly say ‘Nope! Should been printed and I shouldn’t have to do any extra work’ the height of arrogance to expect a key change (that is for the benefit of the whole community) just so don’t have to use an app.

YOU have made a decision to not use the app. YOU have set pointless boundaries. YOU have decided not to use workarounds. So I declare this YOUR problem, not this game’s.

Either get the app and suck it up or shut your bellyaching about it and write the costs on sleeves.

The last three paragraphs negate the first sentence.

The only "arrogance" I see here is the arrogance of hectoring those who don't like the app. Compounded by the presumptuous implicit assumption of moral superiority (essentially, "you lazy slobs actually expect to get a game where you don't "have to do any extra work", while we virtuous gamers just love doing extra work!). Not to mention the impudence of ordering people to "shut your bellyaching about it". The arrogant "declaration" that this "key change" benefits "the whole community", moreover, has clearly failed to convince the non-negligible portion of the community that does not see such a benefit.

This is the kind of attitude that turns people off, drives them away, and creates division, if not enemies. And I say that as someone who has decided (although VERY reluctantly, but nevertheless remaining in agreement with many critics) to go 2.0 and try to salvage something of my 1.0 investment.

Can someone explain to me problem about the app? Seriously, I do not see any disadvantages. Is it the general rejection of digital things? Are you afraid of having your data analysed? Please explain it to me.

20 minutes ago, NABLA_OPERATOR said:

Is it the general rejection of digital things?

It's exactly that, and it isn't unreasonable to desire this as tabletop and boardgaming are great ways to get away from digital society for a while. Personaly that is why I love this hobby so much, but for me it is enough to be offline for the game, for preperation I'd rather have the convenience of a squadbuilder.

Now why the idea of 'semi-regularily print out a pdf' isn't acceptable for anyone capable of browsing this forum isn't acceptable, I wouldn't know. And of course balance through point changes that don't need Lucasfilm aproval to get pushed is such an obvious improvement to the game that it baffles me how some just discard it.

5 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

The points wouldnt hurt your enjoyment or slow you down if they were printed though, you could just ignore them. Their absence does however screw the casual playerbase

So you want FFG to print the points on cards, knowing they will be inaccurate in the future and thereby annoying the majority of the playerbase so the minority can use the inaccurate values without needing to go to the app? That seems illogical to me. Also, the casual playerbase now has Threat cards as an additional list building tool too. I'm not sure how you can say it screws over the casual playerbase either - I don't think it's reasonable to assume the casual players won't want to use the app. Every non-casual player (whatever that means) I've ever met uses an app to build lists though so I think FFG have probably done their homework on this issue.

I remain thoroughly baffled by those who don't want to use the app yet still complain about the printed PDF. I understand not wanting an offline hobby to suddenly become a digital one but that's not what's happening here. The app is only needed before the game, never during. The advantages of the app are so obvious in terms of enabling points updates and potentially more complex and variable points interactions I find it hard to understand the resistance to it. Again, if it became a case of needing your phone on the table every time you played I could understand the problem, but that's not the case.

2 hours ago, Firebird TMK said:

The last three paragraphs negate the first sentence.

The only "arrogance" I see here is the arrogance of hectoring those who don't like the app. Compounded by the presumptuous implicit assumption of moral superiority (essentially, "you lazy slobs actually expect to get a game where you don't "have to do any extra work", while we virtuous gamers just love doing extra work!). Not to mention the impudence of ordering people to "shut your bellyaching about it". The arrogant "declaration" that this "key change" benefits "the whole community", moreover, has clearly failed to convince the non-negligible portion of the community that does not see such a benefit.

This is the kind of attitude that turns people off, drives them away, and creates division, if not enemies. And I say that as someone who has decided (although VERY reluctantly, but nevertheless remaining in agreement with many critics) to go 2.0 and try to salvage something of my 1.0 investment.

I will admit that I was way too strong in my complaint towards voot, and for that I apologise.

I wouldn't say my paragraphs negate the sentence, in fact, I stated are why I said 'to a point' for a reason. I can understand, as @Admiral Deathrain pointed out, that in tabletop games there is a desire to get away from the very digital influence world we live in. However, in this instance, a small part of the game has been digitised in an effort to make the overall game better. It's not like FFG are releasing the X-Wing Miniatures Game Combat App that allows you to play X-Wing just on your tablet. It's just list building and while I understand that is a part of the game, it is only a portion of the game.

As for the rest of your comments, fair enough, it's just every time I see Voot he seems to want to harp on about the app and how he will be forced to either use it or build in a way that is not optimized. I'm sick and tired of all the complaining about 2.0 before it is even out yet.

No one likes doing extra work, let's get that out of the way right there. The point I am making is that options have been provided if you don't want to use the most optimal way of getting to that end result and the alternative is clunky...well you made that choice, although people have suggested ways to make that clunky method more accessible and easier, it just gets thrown back in peoples face. FFG could have easily said 'suck it, you have to use the app'. Instead, they provided what they could, printable PDFs of the point costs for people who want to stick to the traditional list building way and they also included a new (albiet more restrictive) list building method with the threat cards.

Yeah, sad that not everyone can get what they want, but the reasons for the app have been made clear and there appears to be no deviation from that. FFG have done what they can to allow those reluctant to use the app to still be able to enjoy the game via the PDF, yet that isn't enough and I feel that people are asking for way too much here and this is what I ask; paint for me a picture of the solution to this problem that also doesn't cause more problem such as the ones I mentioned above with the printed point costs.

As for creating divides, anyone who knows me in person would know I am as nice as nice can be, but if I see someone being, in my opinion, an a**. I'm not going to pull my punches and pretend like I don't care, I'm going to call a spade a spade. Doesn't mean I don't like you, just means I vehemently disagree with your viewpoint.

In our GW store, there was a certain movement that didn't support Age of Sigmar. They left to stick with 8th edition and then moved on to the community version 9th age. They haven't been seen playing since in the store.

For 40k 8th edition something similar happened; a bunch of guys playing horus heresy (well it's 30k I admit) stuck exclusively with it and don't care about 8th edition. But this is fine for the store, since it is still a GW product (forgeworld).

Our X-Wing group is not store bound, we have sort of a club room instead. Here it seems that everyone is changing to 2nd edition. Most of the players also are into the competitive scene. Even the guys I play with casually, outside of the core group, want to follow the change of edition.

There were solitary voices when 2nd edition was announced that wanted to keep up the 1st edition tournament scene. They have become quite silent.

12 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

Except you need to use the app to do your squad building that way. If you still need the app it isnt a work around.

Even if you transcribe the whole pdf with various pricing onto notes you put eith the cards, thats a lot of effort you need to repeat every time FFG adjust totals. Its a really silly system

We get it. You're a luddite. Go back to your rotary phone and vacuum-tube black & white TV, grandpa.

Or you could join the 21st century, get yourself a smartphone, and use the app.

Because all I've seen you do is ***** and moan about the app. It. Is. Not. A. Big. Deal. You. Are. A. Luddite.

Because guess what, grandpa....the squad builders will keep point costs updated, so you can still use that.

But that's using a computer, I forgot. You're opposed to using anything more complicated than an abacus.

That or your head is so far up your luddite *** that you can't see any workaround because you're tunnel-visioned about "RAWR I HATE APP REEEEEEEEEEEE"

9 minutes ago, TheRabidAardvark said:

get yourself a smartphone, and use the app.

You won't need a smartphone to use the squadbuilder, it will also be a webapp. Literaly anyone capable of complaining about this on the forum will have access to it, smartphone or not.

9 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

The points wouldnt hurt your enjoyment or slow you down if they were printed though, you could just ignore them. Their absence does however screw the casual playerbase

Again, you are projecting your problems on a larger segment, putting your words in their mouth. I’ve seen some in the casual crowd not give a fig about the app or even like it.

And while you are right about it not being a problem for me, I have seen it be a problem for others. Thus your assertion that there is no reason not to include costs and slots on cards doesn’t hold up in practice.

I suspect a lot of the opposition to 2.0 (and the app in particular) runs a lot deeper than this game. We live in a world that is constantly forcing us to update- whether we want to or not, and irrespective of whether the new product is actually offering better functionality than the one it's replacing- and then patronising anyone who complains about it. In this context, it's inevitable that people are going to push back against the relentless pressure to "keep up to date".

I can see why a lot of people are excited about 2.0, but I can also understand why some aren't. For me, the new edition has been something of a reality check. FFG is asking me to pay a not insignificant amount of money to fix problems I don't have and to add new features I don't really want; at the same time, things I do want to see seem further away than ever. More importantly perhaps, all these discussions on the forum have made question the fundamental nature of my involvement with XWM. We're all playing with the same miniatures, but I don't think we were ever playing the same game!

I was unsure for a while, but I don't think I'll be trying to convert my collection. I would like to try 2.0 at some point and if I like it (or they release new features that capture my imagination), then I may opt to collect one of the new factions and start afresh.

4 hours ago, NABLA_OPERATOR said:

Can someone explain to me problem about the app? Seriously, I do not see any disadvantages. Is it the general rejection of digital things? Are you afraid of having your data analysed? Please explain it to me.

I have always used an online builder.

I hate the idea of the app.

I agree with @Vontoothskie that the lack of points on the cards AND UPGRADE SLOTS is geared for only one kind of player, and I am not that player.

What bothers me the most is that the playing components are intentionally left unfinished. I am with Vontooth that there is no harm in having completed components that may someday become inaccurate, as opposed to intentionally designing them useless from the get-go.

3 hours ago, Jike said:

So you want FFG to print the points on cards, knowing they will be inaccurate in the future and thereby annoying the majority of the playerbase so the minority can use the inaccurate values without needing to go to the app? That seems illogical to me. Also, the casual playerbase now has Threat cards as an additional list building tool too. I'm not sure how you can say it screws over the casual playerbase either - I don't think it's reasonable to assume the casual players won't want to use the app. Every non-casual player (whatever that means) I've ever met uses an app to build lists though so I think FFG have probably done their homework on this issue.

I remain thoroughly baffled by those who don't want to use the app yet still complain about the printed PDF. I understand not wanting an offline hobby to suddenly become a digital one but that's not what's happening here. The app is only needed before the game, never during. The advantages of the app are so obvious in terms of enabling points updates and potentially more complex and variable points interactions I find it hard to understand the resistance to it. Again, if it became a case of needing your phone on the table every time you played I could understand the problem, but that's not the case.

A. They had better not ALL be inaccurate in the future, or I suspect you are going to be as annoyed about that as I am.

B. QuickBuild cards are not the same game. Some of us like listbuilding, even as casuals.

C. Agreed. But then why cards at all?? Proof-of-Purchase? To keep graphic designers employed? Fancy doilies for you charge tokens? Alt Art prizes for those who must have them? If the cards are incomplete garbage, then why am I forced to pay for this:

when I should just be using an app and then printing off my completed play list??

The cards are basically overprinted pretty junk that NO ONE needs or can use to play the game. They are now a bloated cost of producing a product that does not need them at all in its electronic form, and does not work without even more paperwork for those who would use them without the electronic app.

Either make it fully electronic, or make a fully complete physical component.

1 hour ago, flooze said:

There were solitary voices when 2nd edition was announced that wanted to keep up the 1st edition tournament scene. They have become quite silent.

Minorities tend to do that when faced with the wrath of the majority. It doesn't mean they have changed their minds.

46 minutes ago, Dobbs Mottley said:

I suspect a lot of the opposition to 2.0 (and the app in particular) runs a lot deeper than this game. We live in a world that is constantly forcing us to update- whether we want to or not, and irrespective of whether the new product is actually offering better functionality than the one it's replacing- and then patronising anyone who complains about it. In this context, it's inevitable that people are going to push back against the relentless pressure to "keep up to date".

I can see why a lot of people are excited about 2.0, but I can also understand why some aren't. For me, the new edition has been something of a reality check. FFG is asking me to pay a not insignificant amount of money to fix problems I don't have and to add new features I don't really want; at the same time, things I do want to see seem further away than ever. More importantly perhaps, all these discussions on the forum have made question the fundamental nature of my involvement with XWM. We're all playing with the same miniatures, but I don't think we were ever playing the same game!

I was unsure for a while, but I don't think I'll be trying to convert my collection. I would like to try 2.0 at some point and if I like it (or they release new features that capture my imagination), then I may opt to collect one of the new factions and start afresh.

It's true.

All of it.