5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I have always used an online builder.

I hate the idea of the app.

I agree with @Vontoothskie that the lack of points on the cards AND UPGRADE SLOTS is geared for only one kind of player, and I am not that player.

What bothers me the most is that the playing components are intentionally left unfinished. I am with Vontooth that there is no harm in having completed components that may someday become inaccurate, as opposed to intentionally designing them useless from the get-go.

Would you care to comment on the existence of those who went bananas when card text was changed? And ever worse when slots on the Jumpmaster was removed?

You wanting the points on cards isn’t a case of “it doesn’t hurt anybody”. It’s a personal preference that that can be seen to step on toes just like you feel the current decision steps on yours. You want to fight for your way, fine. But don’t sugar coat it like everyone would be fine with it.

you are also getting a bit hyperbolic in saying they are useless from the get go or incomplete. They may not have the have all the info in one place, but that is hardly something new. See the erratas of 1.0. I managed to use 2.0 stuff just fine without needing point costs printed on it. Hardly useless.

I don't understand what's wrong with so called "incomplete" components

Pulling out your phone or sheet during play can be detrimental to game flow, which is why they provide easily identifiable cards with the rules printed on them

They don't have card costs because those are irrelevant apart from the very beginning (list legality) and end of the game (tallying up points).

This also lets you fix balance problems easily without ******* with the actual text of cards, which is far more convienent for the player

This is a VASTLY superior system to the miles long errata + mounds of "fix" titles necessitated by the inbalancess of first edition

20 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Would you care to comment on the existence of those who went bananas when card text was changed? And ever worse when slots on the Jumpmaster was removed?

You wanting the points on cards isn’t a case of “it doesn’t hurt anybody”. It’s a personal preference that that can be seen to step on toes just like you feel the current decision steps on yours. You want to fight for your way, fine. But don’t sugar coat it like everyone would be fine with it.

you are also getting a bit hyperbolic in saying they are useless from the get go or incomplete. They may not have the have all the info in one place, but that is hardly something new. See the erratas of 1.0. I managed to use 2.0 stuff just fine without needing point costs printed on it. Hardly useless.

I was answering @NABLA_OPERATOR's question, so like, it's just my opinion, man.

A. The POS that was the 1.0 JM5K should have been banned. That's my opinion on that one.

B. Yep. Personal preference. Never said EVERYONE would be fine with it. But it's seems I am not alone, either.

C. They are virtually useless, pun intended. And if 1/2 the info is someplace else, the cards are by definition incomplete.

Lastly, if they are a mutable, inaccurate, mostly irrelevant component to the game, why am I forced to buy them?

On 7/31/2018 at 6:05 PM, spacesound said:

We have a lot of X-Wing players in my gaming club, and a lot of them will not be advancing to 2.0. Instead, they plan on staying with 1.0. In a way, I don't blame them because they have huge collections.

I'm still new to the game, so I was looking forward to 2.0 since I only have a small collection of models which I got for a lot less than they are worth. For example, I picked up a 1.0 core set in almost new condition for only $6, which is $2 per ship model and everything else is free! What I'm saying is that I'm not heavily invested in the game unlike a lot of other members in my gaming club, so if my gaming club stays with 1.0, I will end up saving a lot of money.

Are other gaming clubs experiencing this phenomenon?

I hear the Amish still use horses and carts.

each to their own.

9 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I don't understand what's wrong with so called "incomplete" components

Pulling out your phone or sheet during play can be detrimental to game flow, which is why they provide easily identifiable cards with the rules printed on them

They don't have card costs because those are irrelevant apart from the very beginning (list legality) and end of the game (tallying up points).

This also lets you fix balance problems easily without ******* with the actual text of cards, which is far more convienent for the player

This is a VASTLY superior system to the miles long errata + mounds of "fix" titles necessitated by the inbalancess of first edition

I guess I'm just going to start running the ball the other way.

People say this game is great with an app? Fine. STOP FORCING ME TO BUY AND STORE PHYSICAL COMPONENTS THAT ARE UNNECESSARY.

Use the app, print your list (with all the rules and details included, like most of the good builders) and play.

Otherwise, I'm paying for a bunch of junk that's junk without more junk to fill in the blanks on the first piece of junk.

We are all aware of the advantages of this new system. It is a great way to manipulate the meta and rebalance said meta. The problem is that some of us don't care about the Meta in the first place.

Personally, I rebalanced my game by not playing with crap like Poons and JM5K in the first place.

Yes, my group is staying with 1.0, which is six of our players and another six have quit altogether. Some of us are picking up extra ships, especially epic, where it makes sense. We've cut back on X-Wing a lot though since the announcement and stopped participating in local tournaments (even 1.0).

11 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I was answering @NABLA_OPERATOR's question, so like, it's just my opinion, man.

A. The POS that was the 1.0 JM5K should have been banned. That's my opinion on that one.

B. Yep. Personal preference. Never said EVERYONE would be fine with it. But it's seems I am not alone, either.

C. They are virtually useless, pun intended. And if 1/2 the info is someplace else, the cards are by definition incomplete.

Lastly, if they are a mutable, inaccurate, irrelevant component to the game, why am I forced to buy them?

So your opinion is that aggravating another portion of the player base to fulfill your wants causes "no harm"? That is a message what you said above sends. Is this what you intended?

Still not buying your "incomplete" defense. By your logic, 1.0 cards are also incomplete because they do not have the info of how certain tokens work printed on them. Or even what moves they have, because that's on the dial. Having slots and costs on a different medium than the card is no different than having movement on a dial, or broader rule explained by a separate booklet. They are not incomplete. They have the information they are intended to have.

As for your last line, you do realize the whole point of NOT printing point costs and slots on the cards is to make them immutable, more accurate, and thus more relevant, right? When a point cost is changed, the card remains the same. When a slot is added or taken away, it doesn't affect the accuracy of the card itself. They are relevant to the game because they still hold important game text, such as abilities, stats, and actions that are needed to play the game. The act in tandem with the app. Neither one is meant to supplant the other.

As for your underlined part, the only one forcing you to buy things is you.

29 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

So your opinion is that aggravating another portion of the player base to fulfill your wants causes "no harm"? That is a message what you said above sends. Is this what you intended?

I am only aggravating people if they let that happen to themselves. Just stating my views here, without name-calling.

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Neither one is meant to supplant the other.

And I'm saying I would prefer not to have my consumer dollars (and environmental resources) wasted on a game component that is no longer needed.

Use the app, print your list with all the details, and play.

No cards ever.

Quote

As for your underlined part, the only one forcing you to buy things is you.

Funny how tournament players don't see it that way when a "must have" card is in a Huge Ship expac or auto-thrusters is in the "wrong" ship expansion.

44 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I am only aggravating people if they let that happen to themselves. Just stating my views here, without name-calling.

And I'm saying I would prefer not to have my consumer dollars (and environmental resources) wasted on a game component that is no longer needed.

Use the app, print your list with all the details, and play.

No cards ever.

Funny how tournament players don't see it that way when a "must have" card is in a Huge Ship expac.

Ah, so you admit selfcontrol is a factor. Then why are you entitled to be up in arms, but say they should practice self control? Now the reverse is also true, if they can be outraged, you are entitled too. But please do not word your opinions so that solving your problem doesn't cause problems for others.

Your print everything solution is also not without consequences either. It is certainly in your right to think that is better, but it will also lose FFG costumers, thus isn't a clear superior choice. Cards are still a vital part of the game by design decision. It's a part of X-Wing's identity as a table top game. Moving point costs and slots to another place changes preparation, but it doesn't actually change the gameplay style of X-Wing. It's still using the information on your cards and dials to give your plastic ships stats and identity.

And once again, you assign one attribute to a play style you dislike, not considering the truth isn't as simple as your words portray. I know plenty of tournament players who bought epic expansions with no muss or fuss. They recognized it was their choice, and got it anyway cause they thought the pack had value. Myself included. Bought the C-ROC for Scyk cards. Don't regret it. I bought the Raider way back when for the TIE Advanced stuff. I haven't use it in game, but I'm still happy with owning the Raider's model cause I think it looks cool.

8 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Ah, so you admit selfcontrol is a factor.

It was for 1.0. FFG has given me strong incentive to not waste too much money on 2.0.

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Your print everything solution is also not without consequences either. It is certainly in your right to think that is better, but it will also lose FFG costumers, thus isn't a clear superior choice.

Citation needed.

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I know plenty of tournament players who bought epic expansions with no muss or fuss.

And yet the vocal individuals that pissed and moaned about it has made FFG change its policy moving forward with 2.0.

14 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

It was for 1.0. FFG has given me strong incentive to not waste too much money on 2.0.

Citation needed.

And yet the vocal individuals that pissed and moaned about it has made FFG change its policy moving forward with 2.0.

Good for you. Your decision to make and you should stand by it. But you didn't actually answer my question. You are acting like people shouldn't get mad for you expressing an opinion that their wants for the game being cast aside causes "no harm", but also get mad when people don't consider your viewpoint. That's a bit of a double standard.

Ask @Vontoothskie how he would like it if the game got rid of cards entirely.

So, you figure if you can't beat them, join them? That's far more like the archetype of a tournament players you keep referring to than some of the tournament players I know. How is your disregard for other view points different from the dreaded "tournament players" you keep ranting about?

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

I guess I'm just going to start running the ball the other way.

People say this game is great with an app? Fine. STOP FORCING ME TO BUY AND STORE PHYSICAL COMPONENTS THAT ARE UNNECESSARY.

Use the app, print your list (with all the rules and details included, like most of the good builders) and play.

Otherwise, I'm paying for a bunch of junk that's junk without more junk to fill in the blanks on the first piece of junk.

We are all aware of the advantages of this new system. It is a great way to manipulate the meta and rebalance said meta. The problem is that some of us don't care about the Meta in the first place.

Personally, I rebalanced my game by not playing with crap like Poons and JM5K in the first place.

You can't always fit a sheet in an lgs with limited tablespace. Having a bunch of cards let's you spread out across different areas rather and lets you more quickly reference any specific ability rather than having to find it on a sheet

They are also quite pretty

So basically, no the cards aren't useless at all. You don't have to use them, but they serve a function

The app also lets you more easily rebalance our own games and thened settings, according to the 2nd edition faq. You can also easily ban things.

But hey, if a professionally designed and balanced experience ain't your thing, you can just make your own xwing game

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

But you didn't actually answer my question. You are acting like people shouldn't get mad for you expressing an opinion that their wants for the game being cast aside causes "no harm", but

100%. It's my opinion. You can walk away or keep engaging me about it.

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also get mad when people don't consider your viewpoint.

I wasn't aware I was mad. And ultimately I was trying to back up @Vontoothskie's POV that not everyone is satisfied.

Quote

How is your disregard for other view points different from the dreaded "tournament players" you keep ranting about?

Who's POV have I been disregarding? Just because I don't agree with your POV, does not mean I have no regard for it.

Quote

Ask @Vontoothskie how he would like it if the game got rid of cards entirely.

How 'bout it? Better or worse?

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

You can't always fit a sheet in an lgs with limited tablespace. Having a bunch of cards let's you spread out across different areas rather and lets you more quickly reference any specific ability rather than having to find it on a sheet

So a PDF for me is no burden, but a pair of scissors for you is?

/s

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They are also quite pretty

The most compelling argument so far. And probably also the truth. They exist because players want them to, and because they make for dirt-cheap-to-produce prizes.

Quote

But hey, if a professionally designed and balanced experience ain't your thing, you can just make your own xwing game

And I often do. But that doesn't mean I can't have some personal desires for the game as it is produced, since I will still be purchasing the base product.

I can run over to Shapeways and buy tons of little ships. But they are just as expensive (or even more so) as official materials, with no support. So, it would be nice if FFG produced the game in a way I find enjoyable.

And to be fair, neither Vontoothskie nor I are arguing for an imbalanced game. What we want is a game component we enjoy.

4 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

100%. It's my opinion. You can walk away or keep engaging me about it.

I wasn't aware I was mad. And ultimately I was trying to back up @Vontoothskie's POV that not everyone is satisfied.

Who's POV have I been disregarding? Just because I don't agree with your POV, does not mean I have no regard for it.

How 'bout it? Better or worse?

So a PDF for me is no burden, but a pair of scissors for you is?

/s

The most compelling argument so far. And probably also the truth. They exist because players want them to, and because they make for dirt-cheap-to-produce prizes.

And I often do. But that doesn't mean I can't have some personal desires for the game as it is produced, since I will still be purchasing the base product.

I can run over to Shapeways and buy tons of little ships. But they are just as expensive (or even more so) as official materials, with no support. So, it would be nice if FFG produced the game in a way I find enjoyable.

It saddens me that you don’t see that you are behaving like those you rant against. Good day, sir.

10 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

It's exactly that, and it isn't unreasonable to desire this as tabletop and boardgaming are great ways to get away from digital society for a while. Personaly that is why I love this hobby so much, but for me it is enough to be offline for the game, for preperation I'd rather have the convenience of a squadbuilder.

This. I know, late to this discussion and probably completely unnecessary two cents, but...

I'm not liking the trend towards digital (smart phones, apps, or DLC - in the form of PDFs). I play board games to get away from the glow of tech. Otherwise, I'd be "suited up" for the real X-Wing: the PC game from the early 90s.

I still lurk the forums, but it does make me sad to see so much arguing. I probably shouldn't anymore ... I really have no plans to give FFG any more of my money (sorry guys, not a fan of post-Asmodee FFG).

Anyway, enjoy 2.0. My group are curmudgeons.

Arguments against the app are mainly just overblown misunderstandings as to the purpose thereof

Any gripe with ffg itself is valid, it definitely ain't perfect, but not wanting to 2nd Ed because of an incredibly convienent app that you don't even need to use...

A free app even

One that you can already emulate in YASB 2.0

5 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

People say this game is great with an app? Fine. STOP FORCING ME TO BUY AND STORE PHYSICAL COMPONENTS THAT ARE UNNECESSARY.

Here's the thing: I actually agree with you ... and we're both wrong.

I cannot tell you how often people tell me they need or want the physical cards as reminder of what their ships can do at the table. Seriously, I hear it at least once or twice every time I play when I let people know that most people in our local scene do not mind at all if you play from a printout, as long as you have a way to accurately track resources.

That's -- pulling numbers from my nethers -- 50% of it.

The other 50% is so that FFG can be sure they're selling product. That's always been why they've required all cards -- including multiple useless copies, like the Renegade Refit -- at competitive events. It's always annoyed me, but it has always been part of the game.

You know that I play casual as much as I play competitive, so I really do understand where you're coming from, and I do agree that -- thus far -- FFG is far more concerned with the competitive scene. It's what they're in constant contact with. But it's not all that. And I absolutely cannot understand the problem of printing out a PDF once every three months. That's where people complaining about the "incomplete" nature of 2.0 absolutely lose me. It is a garbage argument, and it weakens everything else y'all are saying.

^^^ This.

I also don't necessarily completely disagree about the card requirement and often play with just a ship card and no upgrades when playing casually. However, they do serve as useful rules reminders and I can see an argument for them in 2nd edition with the way charges are tied to specific upgrades. The visual reminders on the cards works well by informing players of the game state at a glance. Even if you think the cards shouldn't be required I don't really see how that makes the app and FFG's approach to balance and errata bad.

@Darth Meanie There's nothing incomplete about the game either. Errata and points changes will happen but I don't recognise your definition of incomplete as it applies to the situation in 2nd edition.

I think you all have to come to terms with the fact that both Von and Meanie wont be happy unless it is EXACTLY the way they want it. They are part of the very small but loud minority that just can't deal with the change.

My suggestion to all those that keep trying to do so is, move on. It really isn't worth wasting the time typing the response

I don't know of any of our regulars that are staying with First Edition or bailing because of Second. The host store had copies of the three conversion kits yesterday, and a few of us got together to assemble dials and sort the cards and bases for folks to use.

Players brought their existing plastic, used the new cardboard, and played a lot of X-Wing. Everyone seemed to have a good time, and there was a lot of excitement about the arrival of the conversion kits and Wave 1 in a couple of weeks.

Speaking for myself, this was the most fun I've had playing X-Wing (except for Epic nights) in a long long time. It was a game of placement and maneuver again, not stacking cards and tokens.

[Also, what Hujoe Bigs said above.]

6 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

That's where people complaining about the "incomplete" nature of 2.0 absolutely lose me. It is a garbage argument, and it weakens everything else y'all are saying.

6 hours ago, Jike said:

@Darth Meanie There's nothing incomplete about the game either. Errata and points changes will happen but I don't recognise your definition of incomplete as it applies to the situation in 2nd edition.

I'm not arguing the game is incomplete, I'm saying I wish the 1st release of the pilot cards had point and upgrade slots. I know why FFG did it, and I know that SOME cards will change.

Unfortunately, people argue right past my opinion with an explanation of why it was done. Yeah, I get that part.

But I think it reflects poorly on 1st pass game design that FFG is not even willing to commit to an initial "correct" version of anything.

I am also of the opinion that there were several other ways to handle the PDF that might make some of the detractors happy. But as soon as I make that suggestion, somebody starts whining they'll be using too much printer ink.

Anything I have suggested has been shot down, vosciferously. Since I'm already "wrong" in the eyes of the majority, I'm simply branded as a troublemaker.

6 hours ago, Hujoe Bigs said:

I think you all have to come to terms with the fact that both Von and Meanie wont be happy unless it is EXACTLY the way they want it.

Yeah, that's pretty much wholly unfair. I mean, I had none of the major gripes about 1.0 that flooded these boards, when many of you were happy at all.

While many of you whined about cancer, I was cutting it out of my games and having a good time.

But now that I have the gripe, I'm the DB. And oddly, I'm the DB while you are all getting your way no matter what I think. I already know the game will never be exactly the way I want it; it never has. But to be told that I am not allowed to have a difference of opinion is the most aggravating thing of all.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

But now that i have the gripe, I'm the DB. And oddly, I'm the DB while you are all getting your way no matter what I think. I already know the game will never be exactly the way I want it; it never has. But to be told that I am not allowed to have a difference of opinion is the most aggravating thing of all.

See this, you did what you claim everyone else does, clump people together and then say that's what everyone does to you. I never really complained on the boards about 1.0 broken stuff as much as you and Von complain about 2.0. I didn't care that much, don't believe me? Go through my posts, there is VERY little complaining about broken stuff. Neither did I say you can't have your opinion. I was telling others that they should stop trying to convince you, its a waste of their time. But as you say to others all the time, stop putting words into my mouth.

57 minutes ago, Hujoe Bigs said:

See this, you did what you claim everyone else does, clump people together and then say that's what everyone does to you. I never really complained on the boards about 1.0 broken stuff as much as you and Von complain about 2.0. I didn't care that much, don't believe me? Go through my posts, there is VERY little complaining about broken stuff. Neither did I say you can't have your opinion. I was telling others that they should stop trying to convince you, its a waste of their time. But as you say to others all the time, stop putting words into my mouth.

Edited my post to reflect non-absolutes.

We'll ignore your claim that I require a game that is EXACTLY what I want.

We'll also ignore the fact that your 2 posts haven't made any meaningful contributions to the idea of the thread; you're just out here to take potshots at me.

Interesting how everyone, er, most people, are a saint when they want to invalidate someone's post.

I know it’s no comfort DM, and I agree digital integration is a disturbing trend in boardgames, but I am glad ffg didn’t do to xwing what they did to mansions of madness 2nd ed. I was stoked to get that game until I found out it is literally useless without an app. Now that kind of design can f*** right off.

On 7/31/2018 at 1:05 PM, spacesound said:

We have a lot of X-Wing players in my gaming club, and a lot of them will not be advancing to 2.0. Instead, they plan on staying with 1.0. In a way, I don't blame them because they have huge collections.

I'm still new to the game, so I was looking forward to 2.0 since I only have a small collection of models which I got for a lot less than they are worth. For example, I picked up a 1.0 core set in almost new condition for only $6, which is $2 per ship model and everything else is free! What I'm saying is that I'm not heavily invested in the game unlike a lot of other members in my gaming club, so if my gaming club stays with 1.0, I will end up saving a lot of money.

Are other gaming clubs experiencing this phenomenon?

No one in any of my groups is staying on 1.0.