I mean sure, but in that spot?
That said, I suppose it must have been what happened, since its even more ludicrous that you’d be scum and this game would still be going on at this point.
So,
##vote Gnips
MAFIA - Depths of Coruscant
What follows are my notes from my latest reread. I’ll be using this to try and work out my vote. Last thoughts from you guys welcome of course.
—
Pod pregame Anti-Town read on Jabba
Ovi pregame Anti-Town read on Mads
Mads and GNIPs then argued over whether to reveal cops and lynch jabba to test Pod sanity
QUESTIONS (end of page 4):
Which was sane? pod/ovi
Which was insane? Pod/ovi
Who was framed? Mads/Jabba
—
P5: Then Cal backs out of the Jabba vote - fear of cop experiment? Trying to gain Town cred?
GNIPs stays focused on me.
Ovi pushes on Mad again (p5 Still day 1)
I claim - Pods warns me of my mistake.
Mads rejects Ovi’s cop reveal suggestion. Is that because he is Town or because he had already worked out that Mads was a cop because of Ovi’s repeated pushing of him?
Ovi then claims
Cal then says we have two possible scum but one of them is innocent
I then get lost and say I’ll follow Cal (!)
IMPORTANT:
I am a cop. I thought a lot and the best use of my role is just to claim and clear a suspect.
I also got anti-town from Mad so
1. If framer missed the shot: there is a scum between Jabba and Mad due to our results.
2. If a framer was spot: there is also a chance of both being scum. But it could happen that both are town.
However pre-game shot is the most likely shot to avoid framer activity
Mads then says so hang one of us and says hang Jabba not himself (justifiable)
Mads says Ovi was the crazy one
Ovi then adds “and was framed”
This is odd:
oh I see, that's what you said. sorry, I missed your line that you said both could be town.
I am ok with Jabba, mostly because he wasn't very actively posting, then just claims vanilla
*DID OVI EVER SAY BOTH JABBA AND MADS COULD BOTH BE TOWN??*
—
D2:
Well, no surprise there. Unfortunate that Pod appears to have been either the insane cop or Jabbawookie was framed. I think it more likely tho, that Pod was insane, and I was framed, because I think I was a better framing target for scum. Hats off on that.
Ovi, and results you’d care to share from last night?
Mads, Cal and me all say we will be AFK for a while
Mads repeats that he was framed
I start by saying my suspects pool is GNIPs Cal and Mads (hey! Not so bad! I was 2/3 right here!) - but sadly I shade Cal as a little more Town-ish 
Long Mads post:
I am trying to make heads or tails of yesterday, and I’m coming up with depressingly little. Plus we’re at lylo.
Givens;
Ovi is our last remaining cop, lack of counterclaim at this point proves it. Our only confirmed town. He also has an investigation result he seems unwilling to share at this juncture. I presume because he doesn’t want us getting distracted by what may be an unreliable result.
The votes on
Gnips hammered Wookie. But given the time constraint, this is what a town player should do.
L.P. said he didn’t want to vote jabba, yet clearly was about to at days end. But as with Gnips, this makes sense. Holding off the vote however, leads me to think he’s more likely town, since scum would have no motivation at all to hold off the vote since it was a town player on the block.
Cal also voted Jabba, but with nine minutes left it looks to me like he just chose the target with the most votes.
I voted Jabba, because at that point it appeared we were at a binary choice and I knew I was town, so the odds were better for us if we lynched Jabba.
Pod is dead and confirmed town.
Conclusions drawn; I don’t have anything special. I like LP for townie more than Gnips or Cal based on the vote records but everyones vote has an obvious town explaination. Numbers say that at least one scum had to be in on the vote tho.
Other votes over the day;
Gnips voted LP for following Ovi’s vote on Cal.
Ovi voted Cal for being out then returning to say nothing substantial.
Ovi voted me after the mod error because he needed a smokescreen to push his cop result without alerting scum as to the reasoning, but that was blown up.
I don’t think Cal voted besides Jabba? Did I miss it?
I voted Pod at days beginning, but pulled off because his response felt town to me.
I also liked Gnips argument on LP but dropped my vote on his offer to claim, as I didn’t want to see a claim.
I’m still mulling it over. I was hoping putting it all down would lead me somewhere, but maybe I’m still too hungover to see it.
Followed shortly by a long Cal post:
I think both Mads and LP make good points, which concerns me, because as Ovi is pretty much confirmed town at this point, one of them must scum, if not both. But they are both making good arguments, raising good points. So kudos to you guys.
The framer along with the sane/insane thing makes it difficult for me to get a good read on anything. Ovi's information can't be 100% trusted due to framer. I'm trying to work this out.
Possibilities:
-
Ovi Insane Cop, Pod Sane Cop
-
Scum frames Jabba
- Mads is town
-
Scum frames Mads
- Not possible
-
Scum frames someone else
- Not possible
-
Scum frames Jabba
-
Ovi Sane Cop. Pod Insane Cop
-
Scum frames Jabba
- Would Jabba show up town if scum framed him to an insane cop? Unsure. If so, not possible. If not, Mads is scum.
-
Scum frames Mads
- Mads is town
-
Scum frames someone else
- Mads is scum
-
Scum frames Jabba
Since we're at lylo, I want to make sure this is correct. Does this look right? Are all these the right possibilities? Pod's alignment wasn't revealed as sane or insane that I saw.
One thing I worry about is Mads and Jabba are both excellent frame targets for scum. For me, it's like a coin toss whether or not Mads is scum. I assume scum can't "frame" themselves to seem innocent? Didn't seem like that was possible based on the wiki.
Then GNIPs says he’s more suspicious of Cal then Mads
Mads says he was framed because he was most attractive option
**Ovi then says: GNIPS is anti-Town
(Is Ovi insane? Sane? Was GNIPs framed? Was the result accurate)**
GNIPs then claims vanilla Town and says he was framed or Ovi is insane.
The posts that follow from Ovi lead me to scratch my head:
It is not like I am 100% sure but with the uncertainty this game provides I would bet Ghost is town.
Reason: I didn't die.
and
1. Scum must kill one cop.
2. Pod has an relatively obvious target: Madaghmire. I will remark relatively as it is just an hypothesis. Even I was about to investigate him again also. I think a second check was interesting.
3. I also think Ghost was another likely target as the hammer on Jabba.
Even being able to manipulate it to prevent a result on a scum mate is good for scum, no matter if Mad is scum or not. Allowing the widest scenario for lynching is the best to take advantage from a lylo situation.
Not the greatest soil to build a house but one of the best I could find.
And
Basically the idea is if I am insane why not let me get a town result on a scum Ghost (what I didn't). And if I am sane why not kill me before I get one.
And
Also interesting d1 train on LP. Considering Jabba, Pod and me were town and LP couldn't vote himself. There is was at least 1 scum after him. Cal did not vote him but not because he didn't agree.
So LP is scum and a mate thought it was better to vote him (Mad) or waited to see if something changed (Cal). Or LP is town and they tried to lynch a townie. In the last case, Cal could just try to avoid looks suspicious putting him at l-1. Ghost seems weird as scum in both cases as he started it. Not saying it is impossible but things stack against Ghost being scum to me.
He also didn't contribute too much but he was quite reasonable.
Against Mad being scum all I have is statistics. 2/3 he is town. Whether I am insane or he was framed.
Cal was weird during d1 with flavor stuff that didn't feel right for him. Gink's advice about looking for how they say things and not what they say points to him.
—
Then GNIPs votes for Cal
This from Cal: “Either Mads or GNiP or both are scum. Just process of elimination there. Which tells me Ovi is sane and one of them must have been framed, or both are scum”
Helpful from Ovi:
More data:
If I am insane: Cal and LP are scum.
If I am sane:
1. Both Ghost and Mad as scum seem ridiculous. I mean, did I spot both and also avoid the framer?
2. Both Ghost and Mad would be possible as Mad was a good pre-game target and Ghost was also a good one for n1.
3. I hardly think Ghost is scum given my night result.
4. Mad with Cal or LP as scum seem equally possible.
More Ovi:
Framer may frame himself.
Also framer is not a framer. It is actually a tailor. So the result is inverted.
Town > scum
Scum > town
F town > town
F scum > scum
Mads replies:
Its a little flawed, but I think any plan we come up with will have kinks given the setup. To delve a bit;
1. Scum must kill one cop- Completely right. So we should examine why they chose Podracer, and I see a few possibilities; (no order)
a) They just picked one of you two, and it happened to be Pod
b) Pod was the sane one, and Jabba was framed pregame. Scum decided to kill the sane cop. Especially since given Jabba’s flop we would be more likely to believe that Ovi was the sane cop.
c) Ovi is sane and I was framed, or he’s insane, but either way they felt he would push me at daybreak given how yesterday ended, and they felt they could leave him alive to do it
d) Scum felt better about their chances of predicting Ovi’s investigations than Podracer’s in terms of framing. This doesn’t mean they were right with their target, but I’m guessing at state of mind
Of these, I’m not sure which I feel best about. It may be there are multiple elements at play.
2. I dont know how obvious an investigation target I was on N1. After all, you clearly didn’t investigate me again, and we can’t be sure that Pod would have, even if we agree it would have been a good play. He may have had a different read he wanted to test.
3. As likely as anyone, I suppose. But more likely than LP, who didn’t vote? Or Cal, who is just generally dangerous? Or myself, who you just named as an obvious choice for Pod second action? I mean, ostensibly you must be right, since you investigated him.
This is a really wheels within wheels ******* setup, and its frustrating the **** out of me right now. I love it.
Lets make some assumptions and see if they make sense when looked at from a scum perspective;
Ovi is insane, Jabba was framed D1;
It doesn’t matter which cop is killed. For scum, both cops now should be leaning away from their actual sanities. (Pod looks insane, Ovi looks sane) In this scenario, both myself and Gnips must be town, which makes LP and Cal our scum team.
Ovi is sane, I was framed D1;
Podracer dies for the reasons I elucidated above in scenario C. Gnips is either scum or framed, depending on how likely a target you believe him to be for framing. In this scenario, its difficult to know where to go with the vote.
I’m not addressing the possibilty I’m scum again, because I know I’m not, and I need to get this off before days end and vote. However, Ovi and our third teammate will I’m sure be cognizant of the possibility. If you believe Ovi is sane and I was not framed, you clearly have to vote me, but I urge you not to since then we will lose.
—
**Ebon clarification: “Town framed =
Sane cop = anti town
Insane cop = town”**
Back to Ovi:
agree you may argue against both points 2 and 3, the thing is why Ghost gave me anti-town? Because as scum seems safe from being investigated after hammering a town member?
I put all those points cause I burnt my head figuring things out and tried to order my thoughts. However the key point is the same you pointed why Pod? I completely disagree about the random shot. Scum know what I am. they may not know who I am investigating but they know every result beforehand. If I am sane, they must choose as wisely as me, or build weird arguments about why I read them scum. I am insane, they have 100% control of what I am reading cause they could even just skip framing. In the worst case, instead of building weird cases, they have just to fight thouse built from the others.
—
Mads says he will follow Ovi and offers to go after Cal (when GNIPs is still a possible target... or is he to Ovi?)
More Ebon:
Normal town
Insane cop = anti town vice versa
Framed town
Insane cop = town vice versa
Ovi:
Framer provides anti-town, always, no matter the cop, no matter the actual alignment. That's what I found at least.
Ebon:
Correct in all games with just a framer, insane cop while after in Order of Operations, has an ability which takes precedent
—
Then my letter and they trust me (Mads first with a vote then unvote then GNIPs with a vote on Mads)
Finally Mads with a vote on GNIPs
Then my decision making.
Catching up..
Played Pods imperial fleet last night for 500 points against 3 Cymoons, it was a late night
@Madaghmire - Gnips
@Lord Preyer - Mad,
@GhostofNobodyInParticular - Mad
2 to hammerGnips
both mad and nips at L1
3 hours ago, Lord Preyer said:GhostofNobodyInParticular - what was your take on Ovi’s reads especially at the end?
My best guess, is that I was framed and that Ovi is sane. This makes sense since why would they kill the insane cop? It makes more sense to kill the insane cop and pretend that the sane is insane (something Mad hinted at).
@Madaghmire @GhostofNobodyInParticular even @EbonHawk please - can Scum frame themselves to look like scum?
“Once per night you may target a player to frame, thus making that player show up [anti-town] on inpsection from a Cop or FBI Agent” per the link from Ebon at the start of the game. This would imply that Scum could frame scum to appear as scum regardless of the sanity of the cop investigating. Am I right?
1 minute ago, Lord Preyer said:“Once per night you may target a player to frame, thus making that player show up [anti-town] on inpsection from a Cop or FBI Agent” per the link from Ebon at the start of the game. This would imply that Scum could frame scum to appear as scum regardless of the sanity of the cop investigating. Am I right?
No
Thanks Ovi but if you’re dead I’m not sure I’m allowed to listen to you! Sorry!
9 minutes ago, Lord Preyer said:Thanks Ovi but if you’re dead I’m not sure I’m allowed to listen to you! Sorry!
Ovi is right
Anything wrong or missing here?
—
Pregame:
Pod reads Jabba as antiTown.
Ovi reads Mads as antiTown.
Meaning:
Pod = insane because Jabba was Town
Pod = insane but Jabba was framed
Pod = sane but Jabba was framed
Pod = sane but Jabba was framed NOT POSSIBLE
—
Ovi = insane so Mads is Town
Ovi = insane but Mads was framed so Mads is Town
Ovi = sane and Mads was not framed so Mads is Scum
Ovi = sane but Mads was framed so Mads is Town
If ovi was insane, and I was framed, I’d have appeared town.
town->frame becomes antitown->Read by insane cop reverts to town
5 minutes ago, Lord Preyer said:Anything wrong or missing here?
—
Pregame:
Pod reads Jabba as antiTown.
Ovi reads Mads as antiTown.
Meaning:
Pod = insane because Jabba was Town
Pod = insane but Jabba was framed NOT POSSIBLE. FRAMED TOWN SHOW UP AS TOWN TO INSANE COPS. At least, that's what I remember Ebony writing a while back.
Pod = sane but Jabba was framed
Pod = sane but Jabba wasn't framed NOT POSSIBLE
—
Ovi = insane so Mads is Town
Ovi = insane but Mads was framed so Mads is Town What Mads said.
Ovi = sane and Mads was not framed so Mads is Scum
Ovi = sane but Mads was framed so Mads is Town
3 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:If ovi was insane, and I was framed, I’d have appeared town.
town->frame becomes antitown->Read by insane cop reverts to town
Oh! I read this as meaning the frame overrides everything:
Ovi: Framer provides anti-town, always, no matter the cop, no matter the actual alignment. That's what I found at least.
Ebon: Correct in all games with just a framer, insane cop while after in Order of Operations, has an ability which takes precedence
18 minutes ago, Lord Preyer said:Oh! I read this as meaning the frame overrides everything:
Ovi: Framer provides anti-town, always, no matter the cop, no matter the actual alignment. That's what I found at least.
Ebon: Correct in all games with just a framer, insane cop while after in Order of Operations, has an ability which takes precedence
Yeah what that reads like to me is the frame result happens first, then it is read through the lens of the cops sanity.
Pregame either:
Cal and Mads decided to frame Jabba
Or:
Cal and GNIPs decided to frame Mads
Or:
There was something fiendish going on with insane/framing combinations! ?
—
Night 1:
Cal and Mads decided to frame GNIPs
Or:
Cal and GNIPs decided to frame ?
‘They’ then killed Pod.
—
Night 2:
Framing irrelevant because one of them just killed Ovi.
Mads because:
- First Mads said Pod was insane then later he says Ovi was insane (switching stories to best defend himself at the time)
- His latter claim of Ovi insanity was contradicted earlier by Cal (not the most reliable source admittedly) who said that it was not possible for Ovi to be insane
- Ovi suspected Mads at the start and by the end was quite convinced that GNIPs was Town
- GNIPs was AFK for many hours when he could have just checked in, voted me and won the game if he were scum (less strong a point but still)
- Mads voted for me first on Day 3 and only voted GNIPs after GNIPs bote againsg him gave him no choice but to hand control of the game to me
—
GNIPs because:
- Less participation than Mads
- Mads has been super helpful throughout game
- Mads believed me first and unvoted me, this could have forced GNIPs’s hand into voting Mads
- GNIPs chased me at the beginning and then pursued me for longer than Mads
???
@Madaghmire I am leaning towards voting against you. Thought I should warn you.
Theory:
Pod was insane (oh, the aptness) and read Jabba as Scum
Ovi was sane and read Mads as Scum
Scum decided to frame GNIPs (and got lucky with picking Ovi’s target?)
In which case, my god, we’ve been playing against the Scum dream team of Cal & Mads!! ?
Also, I just don’t feel that scum would have framed Jabba - it’s just too harsh a thing to do to the poor chap!
3 hours ago, EbonHawk said:@Madaghmire - Gnips
@Lord Preyer -
Mad,@GhostofNobodyInParticular - Mad
2 to hammerGnips
both mad and nips at L1
@Lord Preyer 10 minutes!
Alright Town, here’s hoping! Regardless it’s been a blast and I’d especially like to thank my fellow Townie who trusted me even when there were lots of reasons not to.
And thank you very much indeed @EbonHawk!!
And now, Mads and Town, so sorry if I’m wrong here but...
##vote @Madaghmire