48 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

100 points is two juke Sigmas or two Ion, Procket, ASLAM Nus

Guess it'll come down to learning to actually pin aces with arcs instead of relying on VI or "**** your manueverability" turrets . Once we adjusted to not having 1.0 crutches, I'm sure Vader won't be as ridiculous

Still doesn't have **** on prenerf whisper, after all

I expect you're right. 4-5 ship lists seem quite doable, pretty decent, and a bunch of hp to chew through for the limited quantities of double mods out there.

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

I expect you're right. 4-5 ship lists seem quite doable, pretty decent, and a bunch of hp to chew through for the limited quantities of double mods out there.

This. Right now I'm eager to get these kinds of lists on the table. There's a lot of possibilities for mini-swarm + ace that is viable, even up to Vader being that Ace. Don't know what its like for Scum and Rebels, but I think they'll be seeing mostly 2-4 ships on the table, while Imperials will fly 3-6 very feasibly.

The TIE Advance has always been in a terrible place. 3 Firepower & 2 Agility > 2 Firepower & 3 Agility. Also evade a barrel roll actions don't compensate for astromech slot regen. The missile slot was the only thing TIE Advanced had over X-wing Torpedo but that was more of a contest of 2nd to last place with that category.

So now 2.0 X-wings get 1 additional hull (instead of an integrated astromech ship ability) and a red barrel roll, and another slot to put in s-foils. The TIE Advance gets a linked action and loses an already nerfed evade token but a ship ability to get +1 firepower to match X-wings. The X-wing already had a head start but if they were even the X-wing is the clear winner here.

So onto Lord Vader, well he had a great ability a bad ship and the ability had one weakness that can be exploited fully, Lord Vader does not like getting blocked, it makes him nothing more than a PS 9 Tempest squadron pilot and with no actions 3 agility dice are next to useless against 3 attack dice. Now the force tokens helps this out so Vader isn't as prone to getting blocked and becoming useless but the TIE Advance is punching above its weight with an X-wing. Further more add in a pilot like Wedge and now the one advantage TIE Advanced had over X-wings is gone.

36 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I expect you're right. 4-5 ship lists seem quite doable, pretty decent, and a bunch of hp to chew through for the limited quantities of double mods out there.

I will likely fly no less than 4 ships for the entire edition.

32 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

red barrel roll

X-Wings have a white roll action.

I don't think the rest of the TIE Advanced are very good but Vader himself in the Advanced is quite strong.

5 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Now that we have 2.0 points we can really start speculating and theorizing. One of the things that has become apparent in this limited information testing period is that Darth Vader is really good. He's on a decent chassis, has 3 Force points, top Initiative, and access to some good upgrades.

The most common build I've seen run is just shy of 100 points, depending on the final upgrades, and it mostly includes Supernatural Reflexes, FCS, and Afterburners, with Missiles to taste. Add in an initiative bid as you want.

That's a lot of ship, but it's a lot of points. When building squads, I keep coming to the question: when is a smaller ace and a support ship, or two small combat ships better than the Dark Lord of the Sith?

Vader is obviously way more responsive, but it head, at least, generics seem to be good for a lot more than just blocking this days. They're cheaper and usually have some extra abilities added in over their 1.0 versions.

If TIE Swarm is a worst case scenario for Vader (I'm not sure it is), a couple mid-PS named or generics fill the same squad point level as Vader and hit about twice as hard vs lower Init ships, and have twice the hit points when shots cant be avoided (although no Foce battery to fall back on).

So, from these initial limited experiences, are two modestly equipped ships equal to Vader in some scenarios? I know we're still feeling everything out, but any experiences or insights that suggest one way or another?

I keep running into this when list building.

Baseline Vader is Super/FCS so 85 pts to leave room for a 4 ship build. Sacrifices Afterburners and Homer/Procket.

Leaves room for a Palp Jendon to take the lock early and free Vader's force charges up slightly or to give Soontir a Force charge, or just split soontir into two scimitars. The Vader + two pocket ace (Maarek, Force Crew Whisper, Soontir, Fifth Bro Duch, etc. ) lists that I have found so far seem really fun but also very scared of defending against more than 1 shot at a time as it should be.

Vader + 3 Ships ( Barrage Scimitars? Crack Ties? Sentinels or Black Squad Strikers? 2 Inquisitors and a Baron? ) is entirely possible to put together just not sure whats best at this stage.

I am still definitely leaning towards more Vader is better than less Vader...based on no facts or math at all though.

28 minutes ago, Ixidor said:

X-Wings have a white roll action.

I don't think the rest of the TIE Advanced are very good but Vader himself in the Advanced is quite strong.

Vader the pilot is strong, sure, but the Advanced is not. Vader would be better off in any other Imperial ship outside the TIE/ln. Vader piloting a lambda would be a better platform than his signature ship, which is a bit of a crime if you ask me. The Advanced wasn't built to Vader's specs to make him an unstoppable opponent, it was purpose built to reign him in.

3 hours ago, SOTL said:

Two wrongs DO make a right!

And three rights, make a left!

I feel they key to reigning in Vader and other crazy maneuver ships will be ion turrets. I'm leaning towards a couple Aggressors, but Y-Wings fit the bill as well. Combine that with some ships with Outmaneuver and you wind up with some solid shots on target, and likely, a very dead Dark Lord of the Sith.

I'm not sure the advanced is bad at all. It conditionally hits way harder than the X-wing. You can FCS to keep the lock, and you get the linked action, so if you're keeping on one target, you get a re-roll, Focus, and can roll if you need to, while getting a crit.

1 forward add to the advanced makes it much different than 1.0. Gives you the ability to slow roll if you need to. Built in ATC + cheap FCS makes it sneaky potent offensively. Can Talon roll and still have passive mods. Good linked action economy. With Vader specifically, you are pretty much hitting for two hits and a crit every turn and likely doing it out of arc of another ship in a one on scenario.

An advanced sensor defender would give him some fits though.

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that Vader can't be a Squad Leader?

Somehow I expected that Vader and Luke both have a force and a talent slot... but it turned out that force users are talent-free otherwise...

10 hours ago, TheRealStarkiller said:

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that Vader can't be a Squad Leader?

Somehow I expected that Vader and Luke both have a force and a talent slot... but it turned out that force users are talent-free otherwise...

Thank goodness for that, though. We don't need Daredevil or Lone Wolf Vader.

4 juke inquisitors would be kind of scary too.

13 hours ago, Biophysical said:

I'm not sure the advanced is bad at all. It conditionally hits way harder than the X-wing. You can FCS to keep the lock, and you get the linked action, so if you're keeping on one target, you get a re-roll, Focus, and can roll if you need to, while getting a crit.

The problem for Advanceds with low Initiative is keeping its locked target in arc for multiple turns. Even in a world where arc-dodging has been somewhat nerfed they're likely to have to move their locks several times, screwing up their action economy and making them more vulnerable because they don't have the Focus to help them take advantage of the extra defence die. The absence of an Accuracy Corrector equivalent really hurts them.

1 hour ago, Rodafowa said:

The problem for Advanceds with low Initiative is keeping its locked target in arc for multiple turns. Even in a world where arc-dodging has been somewhat nerfed they're likely to have to move their locks several times, screwing up their action economy and making them more vulnerable because they don't have the Focus to help them take advantage of the extra defence die. The absence of an Accuracy Corrector equivalent really hurts them.

Now you're just talking about having the right tools for the job. There a lot of ships and pilots in the game. A low initiative pilot will have a harder time keeping any arc-dodging ace in his sights. That's not exclusive to the Advanced. If you want to hunt down high initiative mobile targets you need one of your own, have solid tactics, or know how to keep arcs covered with turrets.

The TIE Advanced is an excellent platform - on par with the X-Wing all day long. I've argued this point already in another thread. Vader is especially dangerous, but the other pilots aren't slouches either. Maarek is still one of my faves and his Init5 is still enough for him to dodge arcs when necessary.

2 hours ago, viedit said:

4 juke inquisitors would be kind of scary too.

I was just thinking that last night. I would gladly give up force talents to get Juke with a Force token.

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I was just thinking that last night. I would gladly give up force talents to get Juke with a Force token.

Base Inquisitor: 40

Juke: 4

DeadForceEye: 2

Homers: 3

-----

49 points each. 196 total. One of them can get FCS. It's not quite a 1 hit autoblaster at range 2-3, but it's pretty **** close. And you get to do that up to 8 times. Do you believe?

For Vader level of points plus upgrades you can get a Duchess w/ Fifth Brother & Lone Wolf/Elusive and a Planetary Sentinel. I'm probably a bit bias, but I'm very in on Strikers right now. It could depend a lot on what else you want in the squad, but I'd personally take that Duchess and a Planetary Sentinel over Vader in a number of builds/situations.

13 minutes ago, RStan said:

For Vader level of points plus upgrades you can get a Duchess w/ Fifth Brother & Lone Wolf/Elusive and a Planetary Sentinel. I'm probably a bit bias, but I'm very in on Strikers right now. It could depend a lot on what else you want in the squad, but I'd personally take that Duchess and a Planetary Sentinel over Vader in a number of builds/situations.

Not just Duchess, Fifth Bro Countdown or Sabacc are pretty cool to.

I still havent quit figured out my preferred Vader + Mini Swarm list yet. There is something there though.

22 hours ago, viedit said:

I don't really care if it's another faction. The question simple was - Vader or two other ships. If two FO ships have more overall utility than a single Vader, then you hop factions. If someone else brings Vader, and you are down to bid/points I may rather have Omega leader + friend instead of a Vader mirror.

Assuming Omega Leader even has the same ability.....

1 minute ago, comawhite said:

Assuming Omega Leader even has the same ability.....

Correct. And my approach to this was more of a "If I have 90-110 points, where is my best value?" I wasn't thinking within the confines of only the Empire faction. Rather as a holistic approach to list building and where to start. Where do those points get me the best win condition, especially considering if I run into Vader in an endgame. We don't have the full information yet to fully answer that question.

40 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I still havent quit figured out my preferred Vader + Mini Swarm list yet. There is something there though.

Depending on your willingness to give up Afterburners and/or a bid, there are a lot of options.

2 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Depending on your willingness to give up Afterburners and/or a bid, there are a lot of options.

Yea i just have Super/FCS at this point.