Now that we have 2.0 points we can really start speculating and theorizing. One of the things that has become apparent in this limited information testing period is that Darth Vader is really good. He's on a decent chassis, has 3 Force points, top Initiative, and access to some good upgrades.

The most common build I've seen run is just shy of 100 points, depending on the final upgrades, and it mostly includes Supernatural Reflexes, FCS, and Afterburners, with Missiles to taste. Add in an initiative bid as you want.

That's a lot of ship, but it's a lot of points. When building squads, I keep coming to the question: when is a smaller ace and a support ship, or two small combat ships better than the Dark Lord of the Sith?

Vader is obviously way more responsive, but it head, at least, generics seem to be good for a lot more than just blocking this days. They're cheaper and usually have some extra abilities added in over their 1.0 versions.

If TIE Swarm is a worst case scenario for Vader (I'm not sure it is), a couple mid-PS named or generics fill the same squad point level as Vader and hit about twice as hard vs lower Init ships, and have twice the hit points when shots cant be avoided (although no Foce battery to fall back on).

So, from these initial limited experiences, are two modestly equipped ships equal to Vader in some scenarios? I know we're still feeling everything out, but any experiences or insights that suggest one way or another?

I'll reserve judgement until I know the cost, availability and pilot ability of Omega Leader and the other FO's.

1 minute ago, viedit said:

I'll reserve judgement until I know the cost, availability and pilot ability of Omega Leader and the other FO's.

But they're an entirely different faction now, so I'm not sure it's relevant.

Just now, viedit said:

I'll reserve judgement until I know the cost, availability and pilot ability of Omega Leader and the other FO's.

Those aren't really a replacement option for Vader...

I don't really care if it's another faction. The question simple was - Vader or two other ships. If two FO ships have more overall utility than a single Vader, then you hop factions. If someone else brings Vader, and you are down to bid/points I may rather have Omega leader + friend instead of a Vader mirror.

I'd be very interested in seeing Predator Fel and a loaded Scimitar Bomber go against lone fat Vader.

I guess that's not quite what you asked, but I'd still be interested. Maybe proton torps, proton bombs and Skilled Bombardier on the Bomber? Or conner nets. Alternatively dropping proton torps down to APTs or Cluster Missiles so that you can upgrade to Rhymer could be hilarious fun.

Either way, I think there's a lot of scoping for pairing an Interceptor with a Bomber at around the 100 point mark.

The half point thing on small bases *may* end up shifting this. The real question may be, am I better having having one festively plump 100 point ace or two 55 point pocket'ish aces left in end game? Can I get half points on Vader and keep at least one of mine at better than half health?

16 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Now that we have 2.0 points we can really start speculating and theorizing. One of the things that has become apparent in this limited information testing period is that Darth Vader is really good. He's on a decent chassis, has 3 Force points, top Initiative, and access to some good upgrades.

The most common build I've seen run is just shy of 100 points, depending on the final upgrades, and it mostly includes Supernatural Reflexes, FCS, and Afterburners, with Missiles to taste. Add in an initiative bid as you want.

That's a lot of ship, but it's a lot of points. When building squads, I keep coming to the question: when is a smaller ace and a support ship, or two small combat ships better than the Dark Lord of the Sith?

Vader is obviously way more responsive, but it head, at least, generics seem to be good for a lot more than just blocking this days. They're cheaper and usually have some extra abilities added in over their 1.0 versions.

If TIE Swarm is a worst case scenario for Vader (I'm not sure it is), a couple mid-PS named or generics fill the same squad point level as Vader and hit about twice as hard vs lower Init ships, and have twice the hit points when shots cant be avoided (although no Foce battery to fall back on).

So, from these initial limited experiences, are two modestly equipped ships equal to Vader in some scenarios? I know we're still feeling everything out, but any experiences or insights that suggest one way or another?

I'm pretty firmly on the Inferno Squadron train. Seyn, Del, and Gideon all synergize with one another and Iden can save one of them once from obliteration. All together, I've put an Inferno Squadron together for 144 points and the synergizing part is only 93-100 points. That's a decent Ace chucked in alongside, like Whisper with Juke, Crack Shot Tomax Bren with ordnance of choice, Redline + TS + ordnance, and many others that I am only starting to consider.

While the Dark Lord will certainly be a force to be reckoned with, I think Wedge, Fel, and Fenn will be able to bring better wingmen along with them than Vader can. I'm sure that none of them are nearly as strong as Vader defensively, but I think that their costs are strong advantages that should be considered when decided on which aces to center squads around.

The current squad I'm building is making me ask that very question... I can have Oicunn, I can have Vader, or I can have Redline and a generic Striker.

I think the question is about the threat you're presenting and the resulting target priority you're giving to the opponent.

1 minute ago, SOTL said:

The current squad I'm building is making me ask that very question... I can have Oicunn, I can have Vader, or I can have Redline and a generic Striker.

I think the question is about the threat you're presenting and the resulting target priority you're giving to the opponent.

That's why I initially started thinking about Vader vs 2 smaller ships. The waters are sufficiently muddied when comparing Vader to a Miniswarm or Decimator because they're very different from each other. Vader vs 2 X1s or two Interceptors feels like it's close enough that we may be able to draw conclusions on some specifics.

Maybe a better question is whether you can get more by ditching Vader but spreading his hefty cost between two other aces to give you a 3 ace and one support ship squadron? Against any 2 other ships I think Vader matches up pretty well but it looks like the Empire gets quite a few good ships around the 55-70 point region so if Vader eats into your points too much you might end up with a sub-optimal squadron. I'm not sure that is definitely the case. I think Vader plus mini swarm is looking very strong.

36 minutes ago, viedit said:

I don't really care if it's another faction. The question simple was - Vader or two other ships. If two FO ships have more overall utility than a single Vader, then you hop factions. If someone else brings Vader, and you are down to bid/points I may rather have Omega leader + friend instead of a Vader mirror.

If FO ties aren't competitive with Vader, I'll switch to the tophat from monopoly

5 minutes ago, Jike said:

Maybe a better question is whether you can get more by ditching Vader but spreading his hefty cost between two other aces to give you a 3 ace and one support ship squadron? Against any 2 other ships I think Vader matches up pretty well but it looks like the Empire gets quite a few good ships around the 55-70 point region so if Vader eats into your points too much you might end up with a sub-optimal squadron. I'm not sure that is definitely the case. I think Vader plus mini swarm is looking very strong.

That's an interesting idea. I've been eyeing a 38 point Baron of the Empire with Squad Leader as hybrid support/blocker/light combat ship. You might be able to fit 3 modest aces in a squad like that, which brings a totally different kind of ability than Vader provides. Vader doesn't really fit into a squad like that, but Maarek lightly equipped does.

When both ships are also Vader.

Which to go for?

10 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Which to go for?

With those three options, I’d side strongly towards the Dark Lord led 3 ship build.

15 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Which to go for?

Hands down the 4 ship squad. I'd probably swap out the Planetary Sentinel for Seyn, Gideon, an Alpha Sq Pilot, or maybe a Scimitar+BR.

I feel like Redline brings most against swarms, tho I'd like to run the Reinforce vs swarms maths for oicunn.

Vader feels like giving up a lot of resilience & firepower for more arc-dodgy stuff when Soontir is already there.

1 hour ago, SOTL said:

Which to go for?

Afterburners are 8 points, mate... your Vader is two points heavier than you’ve accounted for.

Just now, PaulRuddSays said:

Afterburners are 8 points, mate... your Vader is two points heavier than you’ve accounted for.

But Predator is 2 instead of 4, so no net change.

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

But Predator is 2 instead of 4, so no net change.

Good catch. I’m not going to lie, I went ahead and checked Death Troopers just to be sure ?

4 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

But Predator is 2 instead of 4, so no net change.

Two wrongs DO make a right!

2 hours ago, force kin said:

If FO ties aren't competitive with Vader, I'll switch to the tophat from monopoly

Dude, everyone knows that the Scottie Dog is better than the top hat. Or if the dog isn’t your style, than at least do yourself a favor and play the car. Or even the boot.

100 points is two juke Sigmas or two Ion, Procket, ASLAM Nus

Guess it'll come down to learning to actually pin aces with arcs instead of relying on VI or "**** your manueverability" turrets . Once we adjusted to not having 1.0 crutches, I'm sure Vader won't be as ridiculous

Still doesn't have **** on prenerf whisper, after all

3 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Now that we have 2.0 points we can really start speculating and theorizing. One of the things that has become apparent in this limited information testing period is that Darth Vader is really good. He's on a decent chassis, has 3 Force points, top Initiative, and access to some good upgrades.

The most common build I've seen run is just shy of 100 points, depending on the final upgrades, and it mostly includes Supernatural Reflexes, FCS, and Afterburners, with Missiles to taste. Add in an initiative bid as you want.

That's a lot of ship, but it's a lot of points. When building squads, I keep coming to the question: when is a smaller ace and a support ship, or two small combat ships better than the Dark Lord of the Sith?

Vader is obviously way more responsive, but it head, at least, generics seem to be good for a lot more than just blocking this days. They're cheaper and usually have some extra abilities added in over their 1.0 versions.

If TIE Swarm is a worst case scenario for Vader (I'm not sure it is), a couple mid-PS named or generics fill the same squad point level as Vader and hit about twice as hard vs lower Init ships, and have twice the hit points when shots cant be avoided (although no Foce battery to fall back on).

So, from these initial limited experiences, are two modestly equipped ships equal to Vader in some scenarios? I know we're still feeling everything out, but any experiences or insights that suggest one way or another?

@Biophysical We don't deserve you.

To me I almost always gravitate to more ships when i can. I'll probably still do so in 2.0, unless irrefutable evidence shows to do otherwise.

Thank you for a productive forum thread!