59 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well, one option would be "E Cards" that have all of the relevant "missing" information, are not usable in a tournament, but could be printed out as a resource.

If they used a file like you get from Strange Eons, corrections/adjustments are simple enough, and could be made into a mutable PDF. Then, the cards are meshed with the PDF, as a PDF, but in a visual format that is similar to the playing components BUT with all the relevant info in one place. They might have to make the format bigger (4x6?), but that's hardly an issue since FFG won't be printing them ever.

Seriously, the point of the PDF should be to support players who would rather not use the app. I expected something like the pages of errata-ed cards in the old FAQs. The current PDF files look like Equipment Lists from the 1st Edition Player's Handbook. FFG can do better.

I'm not familiar with Strange Eons, but I suppose that may be possible. However, I know personally, I'd rather not spend that much ink every time there's an update.

I was fearing they'd have large-print, graphic intensive pdfs, and was actually quite pleased to see simple, easy-to-read lists that won't go through an entire cartridge per printing.

7 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well, you went from "grab cards and add them up" to "grab faction PDF, grab other generic PDF, write down points, write down upgrade symbols, grab cards, and add them up."

So, pretty different, I'd say.

And cumbersome enough that people are wanting another way to do it already.

Sorry for not noticing earlier, but why are you writing down points and upgrade symbols when they're already printed clearly on the PDFs you grabbed? It's beginning to sound as if you're just making up steps simply for the sake of making up steps.

One could just as easily claim that in first edition, you had to:
1. Remove cards from box
2. Place cards under box
3. Place box under cards
4. Get a sandwich
5. Eat sandwich
6. Wash hands
7. Add them up

So that's seven steps to 2e's six !

10 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I'm not familiar with Strange Eons, but I suppose that may be possible. However, I know personally, I'd rather not spend that much ink every time there's an update.

I was fearing they'd have large-print, graphic intensive pdfs , and was actually quite pleased to see simple, easy-to-read lists that won't go through an entire cartridge per printing.

Well, that was what I was talking about, so fair enough. A few things though:

A. People who are fine with the App never have to print the PDFs.

B. We've been promised minimal changes. Thus, minimal reprinting.

C. Even with reprinting, you won't reprint everything.

D. They could make less ink intensive "cards" that still have ALL the information in one place.

10 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Sorry for not noticing earlier, but why are you writing down points and upgrade symbols when they're already printed clearly on the PDFs you grabbed? It's beginning to sound as if you're just making up steps simply for the sake of making up steps.

One could just as easily claim that in first edition, you had to:
1. Remove cards from box
2. Place cards under box
3. Place box under cards
4. Get a sandwich
5. Eat sandwich
6. Wash hands
7. Add them up

So that's seven steps to 2e's six !

You do realize that the Earl of Sandwich invented the sandwich specifically so that he could handle his cards and eat at the same time??

10 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Sorry for not noticing earlier, but why are you writing down points and upgrade symbols when they're already printed clearly on the PDFs you grabbed? It's beginning to sound as if you're just making up steps simply for the sake of making up steps.

One could just as easily claim that in first edition, you had to:
1. Remove cards from box
2. Place cards under box
3. Place box under cards
4. Get a sandwich
5. Eat sandwich
6. Wash hands
7. Add them up

So that's seven steps to 2e's six !

I'd write the points and slots in the cards vs the opposite because there isn't anywhere to copy/paste card text from currently and that's a bigger pain to type out than points.

When building a list you need the ship stats (includes dial), ability texts for pilots and upgrades, point costs, and available ship slots to be filled. The app "should" have all that in one place, just as current squad builders do.

Any squad building medium that doesn't include all four of those aspects is incomplete and requires additional information references. Manually consolidating them once saves the later trouble of flipping back and forth between documents but is itself time consuming.

I wonder how hard it would be to create something that could turn the data in each new pdf set into a printable set of graphics-less cards that have just the name, upgrade icon(s), and cost (including any relevant tables). Then you could print a set and slip them in the back of your sleeves for list building.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

You do realize that the Earl of Sandwich invented the sandwich specifically so that he could handle his cards and eat at the same time??

And that glutenous carb soaked bastard is the idea that started the fast food industry which in turn caused America’s obesity issues. Thanks, you impatient gambling addict with no regard to public health. ?

3 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

And that glutenous carb soaked bastard is the idea that started the fast food industry which in turn caused America’s obesity issues. Thanks, you impatient gambling addict with no regard to public health. ?

He also inspired the Earl of Cardsleeves to invent card sleeves so his cards wouldn't be ruined by greasy sandwich fingers.

On 7/30/2018 at 4:11 PM, Darth Meanie said:

As is being discussed elsewhere, using the PDF is kind of a pain in the ***:

I mean, maybe you like cross-referencing the Faction-Specific Points list, the Generic-Upgrades Points list, Your cards, and then writing all that out on a Steno pad. . .

Otherwise, you're gonna want (need) the app. 

Yeah and that's why I am waiting and checking and probably not converting, aside from the ridiculous cost.

I sold a bit over half my collection, now I'm waiting to see if I need to just give up and sell the remainder. it would make me sad but everyone in my playgroup quit when 2.0 was announced. we pretty much play homebrew and epic and I was hoping to perhaps get back into the local store scene, but yeah.

If i can't play without the app, I won't be playing.

On 7/30/2018 at 4:07 PM, thespaceinvader said:

The app w  as never required, there was always going to be PDF support.

I did not say the app was being required by rules in my comment. you implying that I did was very strange and seems passive aggressive.

I did I did say playing without the app seems difficult and will require a costly and time consuming process.

thats a poignant issue for many of us.

If there are variable squad point costs then a pdf is going to be a complete nightmare to understand, and people will effectively be using algabraic equations to make lists. even if there are not variable costs its going to be incredibly time consuming to print, sort and update several hundred cards on a bi-monthly basis, and players will be forced to fact check eachothers lists. in 1.0 there are over 200 pilot cards alone, and I'm betting designers intend to use the apps potential for more complex interactions at some point, so this PDF needs to be really user friendly if its going to work at all

4 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

If i can't play without the app, I won't be playing.

This is such an absurd attitude.

I think I started using an online list builder after my third or fourth core set game. For sure the first full 100 point list I ran was put together in one.

It's so much quicker and easier than doing it with the cards. I honestly can't understand why there would be anyone who didn't use some sort of squad builder.

Just use the app, dude. It'll be so much easier than counting point costs in your head from cards.

Is anyone (other than me) every happy with FFG? People have been complaining endlessly about the lack of point costs and upgrade slots. FFG gives it to them and now the complaint is the lack of the app.

Have a little patience. It will be here soon enough.

You aren't going to convince anyone that has a certain ideology/faith by using just reason.

The sooner you all realize this, the sooner you'll learn not to waste your time.

5 minutes ago, papy72 said:

Is anyone (other than me) every happy with FFG? People have been complaining endlessly about the lack of point costs and upgrade slots. FFG gives it to them and now the complaint is the lack of the app.

Have a little patience. It will be here soon enough.

I think it was always a complaint about the delay of the app and saying we would be appeased in the short term with just the points and slots.

Someone slapped those into a working squad builder in under 4 days though, so why it is taking ffg 4+ months is a bit frustrating.

If it isn't the most amazing app ever, I'm sure there will be the usual questions/complaints/unsolicited opinions on the delay.

4 minutes ago, ViscerothSWG said:

I think it was always a complaint about the delay of the app and saying we would be appeased in the short term with just the points and slots.

Someone slapped those into a working squad builder in under 4 days though, so why it is taking ffg 4+ months is a bit frustrating.

If it isn't the most amazing app ever, I'm sure there will be the usual questions/complaints/unsolicited opinions on the delay.

Two things:

1: what makes you think it's not already done and they've just not released it yet? The game's not even out on pre-release, let alone general release.

2: there's a big difference between a thrown-together github project that only half-works and a commercial release across three platforms (web, droid, apple), and a big difference between amateur development and professional development, especially when LFL is involved, which they are.

Expecting one to behave like the other and take as long as the other is highly unrealistic.

22 minutes ago, ViscerothSWG said:

Someone slapped those into a working squad builder in under 4 days though, so why  it is taking ffg 4+ months is a bit frustrating.

26 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Two things:

1: what makes you think it's not already done and they've just not released it yet? The game's not even out on pre-release, let alone general release.

2: there's a big difference between a thrown-together github project that only half-works and a commercial release across three platforms (web, droid, apple), and a big difference between amateur development and professional development, especially when LFL is involved, which they are.

Expecting one to behave like the other and take as long as the other is highly unrealistic.

I don't believe it's done because they had to rerelease the pdf version after realizing it was missing things. Because of the delays and issues in their other app releases. Because it seems like departments don't communicate well with each other as release articles sometimes explain mechanics incorrectly. Because why would they not want prerelease beta testing by the dedicated fan base that wants it to be the best it can be before trumping it up as a feature on release to new players.

Absolutely there's a big difference between a professional dev team and some guy doing it in his free time. That was implied in my statement. A professional dev team working full time with the backing of LFL should be releasing an amazing app, and not need a year to put it together. It took a volunteer 4 days to make it work, where they announced their app 3 months ago today including a blurb about what it will do and a graphic mock up, so it was well I to development at that point. I expect more of a pro team. If I was buying prerelease at gencon this week, I'd expect the app. Crossing my fingers for a timed release today after the inflight report.

1 hour ago, Azrapse said:

You aren't going to convince anyone that has a certain ideology/faith by using just reason.

The sooner you all realize this, the sooner you'll learn not to waste your time.

But it's either waste time posting here, or waste time.... working. Ugh.

12 minutes ago, ViscerothSWG said:

That was implied in my statement. A professional dev team working full time with the backing of LFL should be releasing an amazing app, and not need a year to put it together. It took a volunteer 4 days to make it work, where they announced their app 3 months ago today including a blurb about what it will do and a graphic mock up, so it was well I to development at that point. I expect more of a pro team.

You obviously have no idea how software development or licensing works in the real world.

There's also a major difference between FFG's app and the third party web builders.

FFG's app will be getting it's information directly from FFG. The web based builders are done by someone reading off cards or a pdf and are updated manually when new information becomes available. FFG's app needs to be able to communicate with FFG's servers to get its information, and there's a ton of work that goes into that, especially when you have to code it for three different platforms and operating systems.

Then there's the fact that any responsible dev company will spend a shitload more time testing and validating than a web builder, and will be answerable to a proper project management life cycle. FFG targeted a September release for the app. Any sensible project management team would make use of every available minute until that deadline.

When I'm working on a build for a client, we never ever go live before the prearranged, project mapped date. Any time we save by building more quickly than allowed for is used for testing, revising and refining elements of the build.

20 minutes ago, ViscerothSWG said:

I don't believe it's done because they had to rerelease the pdf version after realizing it was missing things. Because of the delays and issues in their other app releases. Because it seems like departments don't communicate well with each other as release articles sometimes explain mechanics incorrectly. Because why would they not want prerelease beta testing by the dedicated fan base that wants it to be the best it can be before trumping it up as a feature on release to new players.

Absolutely there's a big difference between a professional dev team and some guy doing it in his free time. That was implied in my statement. A professional dev team working full time with the backing of LFL should be releasing an amazing app, and not need a year to put it together. It took a volunteer 4 days to make it work, where they announced their app 3 months ago today including a blurb about what it will do and a graphic mock up, so it was well I to development at that point. I expect more of a pro team. If I was buying prerelease at gencon this week, I'd expect the app. Crossing my fingers for a timed release today after the inflight report.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see it at GenCon - but at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised to see them wait to release it until worldwide release.

Not to mention that the issue of multi-platform release has a LOT more implications than you seem to be giving credit for.

21 hours ago, LordFajubi said:

And that glutenous carb soaked bastard is the idea that started the fast food industry which in turn caused America’s obesity issues. Thanks, you impatient gambling addict with no regard to public health. ?

gluten...

3 hours ago, ViscerothSWG said:

I think it was always a complaint about the delay of the app and saying we would be appeased in the short term with just the points and slots.

Someone slapped those into a working squad builder in under 4 days though, so why it is taking ffg 4+ months is a bit frustrating.  

Remember, this isn't just a list builder. It incorporates Organized Play functionality as well. Specifically, they need their list builder to support any OP format they come up with (for example, the wave 1 only format we've seen mentioned) in addition to the standard play format.

1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

You obviously have no idea how software development or licensing works in the real world.

There's also a major difference between FFG's app and the third party web builders.

FFG's app will be getting it's information directly from FFG. The web based builders are done by someone reading off cards or a pdf and are updated manually when new information becomes available. FFG's app needs to be able to communicate with FFG's servers to get its information, and there's a ton of work that goes into that, especially when you have to code it for three different platforms and operating systems.

Then there's the fact that any responsible dev company will spend a shitload more time testing and validating than a web builder, and will be answerable to a proper project management life cycle. FFG targeted a September release for the app. Any sensible project management team would make use of every available minute until that deadline.

When I'm working on a build for a client, we never ever go live before the prearranged, project mapped date. Any time we save by building more quickly than allowed for is used for testing, revising and refining elements of the build.

This isn't their first app.

This isn't their first star wars app.

This isn't their first product release.

Anything about release date is obviously conjecture based on product release as we don't know what official date they set.

But I now realize apps are super hard, and licensing agreements are impossibly complex so their professional app development team should be given all the slack if they don't have it ready for consumption the day that the new product goes on sale (today), or even when it hits general release in a month or two from now. Thinking that they would plan for all components of their product to release together and on time when they are the ones setting the schedule for what on time means is just unrealistic on my part.

And I will be super patient and forgiving if it doesn't work on my devices for whatever reason for any amount of time after that, or for any content errors therein (such as those the pdf had in its first release). Such potential delays are unknown unknowns that the project manager had no chance to plan for, and their previous release lessons learned documents didn't cover such unexpected circumstances.

I apologize to ffg for my clearly unrealistic expectations of competent project planning and execution. I promise to expect less in the future. Because some things are just hard to do.

Maybe I should practice saying "it's a feature not a bug", and "Soon" as I used to when [not] expecting things from SOE.

the biggest thing that I find confusing is the folks complaining about app/builder access on an online message board. You don't NEED the app. you can use the website ( just like this one) you can use the PDFs (a bit more cumbersome, no doubt), use the quick build cards (great for casual play, not so great for competition) or use the app. And that isn't even taking in to consideration all the many workarounds suggested on these ONLINE boards that folks are reading and responding to ONLINE (just like the builder will be). WTH? What it really comes down to is how much, if at all, you really want to continue playing X-wing in the new addition. If you don't want to enough to deal with a little inconvenience depending on your situation, then hey, that's cool. there are so many other ways to invest play time in. Personally, I do want to keep playing in the new edition. but to each there own. It is, after all, just a game.

24 minutes ago, ViscerothSWG said:

Thinking that they would plan for all components of their product to release together and on time when they are the ones setting the schedule for what on time means is just unrealistic on my part.

Isn't September 13th the official release date? I believe they said the app would be available...on September 13th.

The pre-release at Gencon doesn't count.

5 hours ago, ViscerothSWG said:

I don't believe it's done because they had to rerelease the pdf version after realizing it was missing things.

Having to fix the data has absolutely no bearing on whether the app is done, just as a typo in an article doesn't mean the website's broken.

For me what this pdf points out is that the quick build cards only works with the Escalation Mode, since many builds have multiple mods upgrades.