17 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Iden works just once. Use it to save a regular Tie? Or save Howlrunner?

How many times would you have her work? She stops lethal damage from ANY Tie Fighter in range one, it doesn't matter if it just ate 4 hits from a torpedo. This almost guarantees that at the end of the round you will have one more Tie Fighter than you should have, which is huge. Worst case scenario the opponent still shoots down the Tie with another ship, but that's still an attack wasted on a ship that would otherwise be dead.

14 minutes ago, Rojek said:

How many times would you have her work? She stops lethal damage from ANY Tie Fighter in range one, it doesn't matter if it just ate 4 hits from a torpedo. This almost guarantees that at the end of the round you will have one more Tie Fighter than you should have, which is huge. Worst case scenario the opponent still shoots down the Tie with another ship, but that's still an attack wasted on a ship that would otherwise be dead.

Saying that some will want to save it for Howlrunner.

4 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Saying that some will want to save it for Howlrunner.

Oh, didn't get that, sorry. But like @thespaceinvader said, I think the best use is to save the first TIE the enemy is shooting at.

3 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Saying that some will want to save it for Howlrunner.

I think the correct play is usually going to be using Iden to negate an alpha strike if the enemy has one. After that it's probably correct to use her at the first opportunity. Having an extra TIE to shoot back, then potentially block again next round is often going to be too good to pass up. The danger if you wait is never having the right opportunity again. If Iden turns out to be as good as people think she's probably going to overtake Howlrunner as the target of choice anyway.

11 minutes ago, Jike said:

I think the correct play is usually going to be using Iden to negate an alpha strike if the enemy has one. After that it's probably correct to use her at the first opportunity. Having an extra TIE to shoot back, then potentially block again next round is often going to be too good to pass up. The danger if you wait is never having the right opportunity again. If Iden turns out to be as good as people think she's probably going to overtake Howlrunner as the target of choice anyway.

The other thing is that the right call on the opponent's part is probably to focus fire on Iden and force her ability to be used or lose it.

11 minutes ago, Jike said:

If Iden turns out to be as good as people think she's probably going to overtake Howlrunner as the target of choice anyway. 

No, because she only works once and can work on herself. So there's no point in targeting her early, because whoever you target she'll use her ability and then she's just a regular Initiative 4 TIE. Howlie's ability works the entire time she's on the board, so she's got to go.

Just in my head:

Luke/Dash

Boba/Fenn

Bombs, especially things like traj sim Punisher or genius Scurgg.

Concussion missiles

7 minutes ago, Rodafowa said:

No, because she only works once and can work on herself. So there's no point in targeting her early, because whoever you target she'll use her ability and then she's just a regular Initiative 4 TIE. Howlie's ability works the entire time she's on the board, so she's got to go.

As @thespaceinvader points out, if you target Iden you force your opponent to use it instead of giving them the option of when to get the most out of her ability. If it's going to be used I'd rather take away my opponent's choice about when that happens.

5 minutes ago, Jike said:

As @thespaceinvader points out, if you target Iden you force your opponent to use it instead of giving them the option of when to get the most out of her ability. If it's going to be used I'd rather take away my opponent's choice about when that happens.

Eh. As other people have said, generally it's probably optimal to use the ability the first time you're going to lose a TIE anyway so personally I'd far far rather you be shooting at Iden than Howlrunner.

Thinking further about it, the best option is probably just to shoot the squishiest target at R1 of Iden. If they choose not to save it, they lose a gun, if they choose to save it, switch to Howl.

26 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Thinking further about it, the best option is probably just to shoot the squishiest target at R1 of Iden. If they choose not to save it, they lose a gun, if they choose to save it, switch to Howl.

I think this is where the money is. If Howl us in the back and has Elusive, you're likely to be blowing a lot of shots into her to get rid of her. If you've got a couple APs at R1, though, you might be able to drop 2 if they reserve Iden for howl, you'll get the most of your attack dice, and you'll get rid of the hardest hitting part of the swarm (for this turn) before it fires at you.

2 hours ago, Jike said:

As @thespaceinvader points out, if you target Iden you force your opponent to use it instead of giving them the option of when to get the most out of her ability. If it's going to be used I'd rather take away my opponent's choice about when that happens.

I take the exact opposite view. If you target Iden first, you're right that she has to use it.

And you're left with 6 TIEs still on the board.

But if you target an Academy pilot first, you're forcing them to choose whether whether to save that Academy pilot to keep all six ships on the board and leave Howlrunner open to the next round, or they let the Academy did so that they can save Howl the next round.

Personally, I'd rather just wipe any TIE in a swarm out as quickly as possible, because numbers is their strength.

But I can see an argument for keeping Howl on the board for as long as possible. You may be losing TIEs, but the ones that remain are more effective.

At the very least, I would rather force my opponent into making that choice than making things obvious for them.

To put it another way, if the first TIE I target is some random Academy and Iden saves it, it is exactly the same outcome as if I'd just targeted Iden. If Iden doesn't save it, I can potentially remove a sixth of the list from the board and I immediately benefit.

It probably depend a a lot on how good you/your squad is at avoiding the brunt of a Howl swarm. If you're taking all 7 shots, target Howlrunner and pray for luck. If you're taking 3, trim off the ones that have shots on you and after a little while, you don't care that much about Howl. Somewhere it the middle and it depends on a lot more factors.

Yea, Iden basically gives the Howl Swarm an 8th TIE. Which is terrifying, especially considering that the Howl Swarm retains its incredible offensive reliability in an era when most 2.0 things will have far less offensive reliability than they used to have. And with less defensive reliability, those TIEs can even chew up High AG targets much more effectively now.

The 2.0 Howl/Iden Swarm is a monster. On paper and on table, I haven't seen anything beat it yet and fear it will make other jousters unplayable (not unlike 1.0's Waves 1-3), with it's only weaknesses being Bombs and Splash Damage tricks. Also, given that unlike the early days of 1.0 people have both (1) learned how to Fortress easily AND (2) are willing to do in tournament games, I expect to see a lot of Howl/Iden swarms just fortressed in a corner and waiting for the opposition to start coming anywhere near it.


Do Final Salvos still resolve the way they used to in 1.0? If so, nothing can compete with that 14-Die Final Salvo. So you basically have to eventually fly into the teeth of the TIE Swarm before time is up (and pray you snipe a TIE and don't lose anything on that initial exchange... but that means surviving potentially 14 dice).

why do you think jousting a swarm is a good idea? 16 red dice will outjoust anything you throw at it, outfly and use AoE weapons

52 minutes ago, mad mandolorian said:

why do you think jousting a swarm is a good idea? 16 red dice will outjoust anything you throw at it, outfly and use AoE weapons

5 barons with cluster missiles toss 15+.....

**** you kids with your silly missiles, back in my day missiles weren't cost effective.

Missiles are limited by energy, although i admit that ties will die, you will also kill at most 5 ties a turn

2 minutes ago, mad mandolorian said:

**** you kids with your silly missiles, back in my day missiles weren't cost effective.

Missiles are limited by energy, although i admit that ties will die, you will also kill at most 5 ties a turn

A swarm's strength is its numbers. If able to cut them down in number rapidly enough, their strength is gone. 5 K-fighters might be able to pull it off against an 8 Tie swarm. Still 16 die is nothing to scoff at.

What kills a swarm but a higher ps swarm? Specifically Howl, all of Inferno Sq., and Wampa.

4 outmaneuver interceptors or 5 sabres are good, but suck hard against torpedo Luke and any Wedge. But something that TIES hated even in 1st edition...Defenders.

I have been toying with Vader/Rexlar or Rexlar/Vessery and both are highly customisable yet generally effective archetypes that can deal with TIEs so long as the flying is nice and cagey. Some toys to consider:

Collision detector on a non-Ryad: who cares about the 5 bases of a 4 k now? Also, I can now boost/br anywhere I want!

FCS, even on Vess (But don't on Vader, as then he will be a Supernatural Reflexes one and a bit infringing on the purchasing of the defender's toys). Very helpful for walking the ioned to doom. Sometimes useful for hlc or a missile, but mainly just addressing 1e's problem of the accuracy of certain defenders.

Advanced Sensors on Vader. Sure, no more actions in the round, but a great backup plan and more affordable in points and force than Supernatural Reflexes, Especially for those turns you happen to be in an arc and need the Force to mimic Poe. Also, K-turns!

Afterburners: 2 boosts is all a cautious Vader needs. Pair with sensors for loads of fun in deciding whether to br and then 3 turn or 3 turn and go on an action spree, including a free boost even when stressed.

Sense: never underestimate the power of the Force. If your wingman is only i4, he will thank you.

Outmaneuver: same cost as 1e, but now more cost-effective and fun on Defenders than ever!

Cluster Missiles: great on Vader and not bad on the defender. Not my favorite though, as if the opponent knows what he is doing, he can make sure the attack is suboptimal. That and you can roll 4 dice at r1 with the defender or atc with primary.

Proton Rockets: Rexlar, you beautiful monster. Rolling 5 dice at r2 because of careful planning and way too many ships to not get one in bullseye during the game.

HLC: hilarious if it procs with outmaneuver at r2, but not as effective as just focusing and not repositioning.

Ion cannon: still good and very handy for clutch moments of needing an enemy not to perform certain maneuvers.

All that being said, it can be a tough game.

On ‎7‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 2:47 PM, thespaceinvader said:

Thinking further about it, the best option is probably just to shoot the squishiest target at R1 of Iden. If they choose not to save it, they lose a gun, if they choose to save it, switch to Howl.

This. Choosing Iden, or another target at range 1 of Iden, only matters if you're getting a 'better' shot out of the shot geometry.

Wiping out Howlrunner is nice, but killing an academy pilot who hasn't fired yet probably generates about the same firepower reduction that turn, and provides a far harder decision for your opponent, because it's a range 1, non-elusive target.

7 hours ago, Nyxen said:

What kills a swarm but a higher ps swarm? Specifically Howl, all of Inferno Sq., and Wampa.

Nice list. Alternatively; 8 x Obsidian Squadron (being able to get initiative 2 on an 8-ship swarm is a pleasant new option an could come as a nasty surprise to people who expect a swarm to fly in a 2x4 box around howlrunner.

Serissu swarm

Another comparison between 1.0 and 2.0 :

1.0 : 4x Academy pilots (48), 4x Obsidian pilots (52) = 100 pts

2.0 : 4x Academy pilots (92), 4x Black Squadron Ace with crack shot (108) = 200 pts

The classic 8 tie swarm gain buff too !

What are the best long range options now? Ordnance? Force Users with power moves? Turrets? I do think a hard alpha is the best opening move against swarms but what alpha’s good without being a paper dragon or a dump truck with a busted wheel?

20 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

What are the best long range options now? Ordnance? Force Users with power moves? Turrets? I do think a hard alpha is the best opening move against swarms but what alpha’s good without being a paper dragon or a dump truck with a busted wheel?

Drea Renthal (40)
Squad Leader (4)
Dorsal Turret (4)
R4 Astromech (2)

Binayre Pirate (24)
Cluster Missiles (5)

Binayre Pirate (24)
Cluster Missiles (5)

Binayre Pirate (24)
Cluster Missiles (5)

Binayre Pirate (24)
Cluster Missiles (5)

Binayre Pirate (24)
Cluster Missiles (5)

Total: 195

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

10 3-die attacks with a reroll, twice a game, before dropping to "just" a Z95 swarm.

Biggest issue is getting Drea's rerolls without drea dying, but she'll at lease survive long enough to have the Zs trade fire the academies.