Dash has, if anything, received a net buff in 2.0. He no longer has a true doughnut hole, the Outrider Title is phenomenal and he gains a gunner slot. 4-die attacks are just as effective as double-mods when attacking, and numerous mechanics allow him to get double mods each turn anyway. Luke's been on the radar since reveal as a ship to watch out for, and he's no disappointment. Add in that they both out-PS every swarm and you've got a recipe for success. Here's Dash in his best form:

Dash Rendar (137) [100]
Outrider [14]
Han Solo [12]
Lando Calrissian [5]
Cluster Missiles [5]
Trick Shot [1]

Dash is 137 points here - 68.5 points in 1.0 terms. On the face of it, he has no native modifiers, doesn't have unblockable actions an is on the whole rather dull. However, he's got a few tricks up his sleeves. Let me walk you through his average turn:

1. Execute a manoeuvre that leads to 1 or more ships being in his front arc, and another in one of the two side arcs. Lando as the action, which is going to let Dash double-token himself a good deal of the time.

2. Han gunner lets Dash perform an attack at initiative 7 - not a bonus attack, mind you, just 'perform an attack'.

3. At initiative 5, Dash can either perform a primary out of his right side if a target of opportunity presents itself, or he can simply double-tap with cluster missiles out the front on a target he's locked previously.

Now, this isn't so spectacular in and of itself, but here's where 2.0 Dash is incredible in comparison to first edition: skilled Dash players master the art of landing Dash's closest corner to the enemy on a rock - Lone wolf and focus stacks more or less ensure that at AGI 3 Dash can't be hit. It's fairly easy to do once you know what you're doing, and even easier when you don't truly have to accommodate the 'blind spot'. Outrider means your opponent doesn't get extra agility, whereas trick shot gives you an additional die on every obstructed shot. So Dash can easily throw 13 dice in a round in bursts of 5 - 4 - 4. Rolling an extra die is outright better than Predator or Lone Wolf on offense, so this version of Dash is looking to be an offensive powerhouse with good upgrades, defensively strong with Lando, and resistant to both stress and ordinance lists with Outrider.

Of course, there's going to be whining about him, but he's still better to play against than 1.0 Dash. The obvious counterplay is blocking Dash and R1 killboxes, alongside with strong control lists. Vader's still going to tear him apart, as is Fenn Rau most likely. But against the inevitable swarm meta, Dash is going to be utterly beastly.

As for Luke, we all know he's outstanding in just about every respect. The trouble is that he's such an obvious Dash wingman, but points are tight. You can barely squeeze luke in with the super Dash build above. So what should I drop from Dash to give Luke the upgrades he needs to function? Outrider? Lando?

You accidentally put missiles on Dash! Take those off and you have 5 more points for Luke! Happy day!!?

39 minutes ago, Antilles01 said:

You accidentally put missiles on Dash! Take those off and you have 5 more points for Luke! Happy day!!?

The missiles on Dash are really important. The turret arc for primary turret ships points to opposite sides, so Dash can't shoot forward and left/right in the same turn. Without the missiles, you'd have to set up a left and right side shot, putting Dash into a nasty trap, or otherwise making him nowhere near as effective.

Are you sure Han allows you to attack twice?

8 minutes ago, costi said:

Are you sure Han allows you to attack twice?

Currently, yes. He merely allows a ship to 'perform an attack at initiative 7'. Not a 'bonus attack', not 'engage at PS7' like the force talent. It's just a straight up extra attack, which makes sense at 12 points compared to the generic's 'bonus' attack with nearly identical wording at 8 points.

I think the RRG will prove you wrong (otherwise, "bonus attack" on many cards would be redundant), but we'll wait and see.

2 minutes ago, costi said:

I think the RRG will prove you wrong (otherwise, "bonus attack" on many cards would be redundant), but we'll wait and see.

Why wouldn't it be 'engage at IN7', then? Something has to be inconsistent and I'm afraid Han gunner will need an erratum or at least faq to fix that.

It could be the case that performing a bonus attack specifically prevents you from attacking again that round (there's definitely a rule preventing more than one bonus attack). Since Han shoots first, wording his I7 attack as a bonus attack would prevent him taking his normal attack afterwards, so it's phrased differently.

If I remember from the FFG Rebel Conversion Kit unboxing, Alex Davies made it clear Han does work like an extra attack, and does not prevent you from attacking again: go to minute 35 of this video:

Basically, Han let's you take an attack from one arc from a turret (bowtie or normal), but does not stop another attack at the ship's normal initiative, as long as it's not from the arc Han shot (first) from. So, yeah, this would technically allow Dash to double tap with missiles, or say a Y-Wing (which has a primary arc) to double tap from their normal arc w/their primary weapon (or ordinance)

Han Solo and Wedge are actually priced more aggressively than Luke and Dash.

Han Solo wins against Dash 1v1

Wedge wins against Luke 1v1

I'm super happy that Dash won't be OP trash on release. He will actually be balanced. Now isn't that something.

31 minutes ago, Dengar5 said:

I'm super happy that Dash won't be OP trash on release. He will actually be balanced. Now isn't that something.

Well, I'm pretty sure there will be plenty of other 'OP trash' for people to use

If you put Dash’s corner on a rock how is he firing?

I’ve had a lot easier time running him with Bistan. Trying to get someone in a missile arc or on the other side leads to bumping. Bumping leads to 150 points of dead Dash.

7 hours ago, Dengar5 said:

Han Solo and Wedge are actually priced more aggressively than Luke and Dash.

Han Solo wins against Dash 1v1

Wedge wins against Luke 1v1

I'm super happy that Dash won't be OP trash on release. He will actually be balanced. Now isn't that something.

Han probably wins against Dash 1v1. Really depends on board state, rock distribution and relative health once the wingmen are down.

Wedge beats Luke, but that's an unfair comparison. Wedge dies to swarms and Luke doesn't, which is going to be key.

I'm similarly glad about Dash, though I don't think he was ever truly unbalanced. There was always counterplay available unless you were running a classic swarm.

53 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

If you put Dash’s corner on a rock how is he firing?

I’ve had a lot easier time running him with Bistan. Trying to get someone in a missile arc or on the other side leads to bumping. Bumping leads to 150 points of dead Dash.

I had debris in mind. Hopefully FFG will bring out a third obstacle type somewhere along the line too, but we'll have to wait and see for that.

I think the missiles ensure Dash's freedon of movement. He can end up at r1 of two ships and dish out some decent damage, and if there's a ship in his side arcs then it's another strong attack. Time will tell which build is optimal in a given meta.

So does the fact that the Han Solo card specifically says that you cannot attack with that arc again change this discussion? Does that wording mean that he cannot attack with his primary weapon again? or just that facing? What are the odds you can line up a ship on either side? This I guess is why the missiles are important, since at least he'll be able to shoot his primary at I7 then missile at I5 in the same turn.

1 hour ago, CanisLupus518 said:

So does the fact that the Han Solo card specifically says that you cannot attack with that arc again change this discussion? Does that wording mean that he cannot attack with his primary weapon again? or just that facing? What are the odds you can line up a ship on either side? This I guess is why the missiles are important, since at least he'll be able to shoot his primary at I7 then missile at I5 in the same turn.

I don't think it does. Han works with a Turret Arc, which is separate from the standard arc that a missile uses. Since the YT-2400 is a Primary Weapon Turret (with a double arc), Han can fire out of one turret arc at I7 and then then Dash can fire out of the other turret arc or a missile out of the front standard arc at I5 (even if Han used the front turret arc).

How are people so confused about gunner Han? He is just like Veteran Turret Gunner in all but two respects. First, the extra attack he grants is at I7 instead of the ships normal initiative. Second, his attack is not a "bonus attack" and therefore does not prevent you from taking another "bonus attack" (such as from Cluster Missiles) this turn. That's it, and frankly at four more points than VTG I don't see him getting much use at all.

Holy is on point re gunner Han

except that you'd use gunner Han on non-primary-arc turrets specifically so they can double-tap out of their front with missiles

still, at 137 with two barely modified attacks? ....eh. I'd sooner take 3 X-wings

also a Dash that has no access to boost is decidedly nerfed. And thank the force for that

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Holy is on point re gunner Han

except that you'd use gunner Han on non-primary-arc turrets specifically so they can double-tap out of their front with missiles

still, at 140 with two barely modified attacks? ....eh

Fair enough, if you have a non-pwt ship that you want to fire the turret upgrade and then fire another secondary weapon Han does have that over the VTG. I don't see many people spending 12 points for Han on a Y-wing for that trick though.

amen, don't see Han only primary arced ships unless the I 7 becomes hugely relevant (but with just ICTs at one damage tops? Currently not a thing yet)

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

amen, don't see Han only primary arced ships unless the I 7 becomes hugely relevant (but with just ICTs at one damage tops? Currently not a thing yet)

Maybe if they release some kind of turret/torpedo combo where you really need the turret to fire first (turret provides lock on hit?) then Han might be an interesting choice for same Jank. Or maybe if the meta becomes dominated by the handful of I6 pilots his first strike might become useful. Or maybe they release a killer "bonus attack" weapon where the VTG restriction is too much. Until then he isn't worth the premium.

Come to think of it he would be decent on Double Edge, shame Han is a dirty terrorist.

22 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

How are people so confused about gunner Han? He is just like Veteran Turret Gunner in all but two respects. First, the extra attack he grants is at I7 instead of the ships normal initiative. Second, his attack is not a "bonus attack" and therefore does not prevent you from taking another "bonus attack" (such as from Cluster Missiles) this turn. That's it, and frankly at four more points than VTG I don't see him getting much use at all.

I dunno. It's basically the 1.0 equivalent to paying 2 points in order to allow your pilot to shoot at PS12 during the Combat phase. On something like an Outrider, it can do a lot to keep you from getting PS killed, or from eating a bunch of damage during simultaneous fire.

19 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

First, the extra attack he grants is at I7 instead of the ships normal initiative.

See, you use the word instead here. The rebel Han Solo gunner card does not. Compare to Torkil Mux, Roark Garnet or Heightened Perception, which all use the word instead as a replacement effect (page 2 of the rules reference). Currently, as written and without an errata or FAQ, I would argue that Han is not a replacement for the normal initiative attack, but a special case that allows a extra attack that is specifically separate from a bonus attack.

11 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Maybe if they release some kind of turret/torpedo combo where you really need the turret to fire first (turret provides lock on hit?) then Han might be an interesting choice for same Jank. Or maybe if the meta becomes dominated by the handful of I6 pilots his first strike might become useful. Or maybe they release a killer "bonus attack" weapon where the VTG restriction is too much. Until then he isn't worth the premium.

Come to think of it he would be decent on Double Edge, shame Han is a dirty terrorist.

Han would be the bee's ******* knees on the K

turret tap into barrage rockets!

too bad its dial is awful and it has no SLAM functionality and no other real oustanding qualities...

but ANYWAY, if we're so hung up on swarms why not just use Leebo? Sure, he doesn't have Dash's ****** maneuverability, but he has a perma-calculate to spend on his up to 3 attacks AND every defense roll made against swarms!

I see one big problem in that Leebo always wants to calculate, so getting that TL is hard (could use Magva?). So, we gotta work around that

So this is a VERY rough draft, but we got some moving parts

Ap-5 guarantees your calculate, Wedge is Wedge, and then we have the two-or-three attack perma-calculate extraordinaire

2 minutes ago, Nspace said:

See, you use the word instead here. The rebel Han Solo gunner card does not. Compare to Torkil Mux, Roark Garnet or Heightened Perception, which all use the word instead as a replacement effect (page 2 of the rules reference). Currently, as written and without an errata or FAQ, I would argue that Han is not a replacement for the normal initiative attack, but a special case that allows a extra attack that is specifically separate from a bonus attack.

I think you and HolySorc are arguing the same points here.

Could be. I've be a part of conversations about Han were the ability to fire at both I7 and at the pilots normal initiative was in question, so I might be seeing everything through those glasses. My apologies to HolySorcerer for misunderstanding if that is the case.