After digging through the Samurai Archives, I came across a entry on Money and how it was used during the Edo Period. This can be quietly inserted into L5R with little adjustment

http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Currency

Edit: I'll be sorting through this and breaking it down into denominations to make it easier to use in game.

If I get it right, two things were really darn expensive: clothes and prostitutes. With the latter potentially earning more annually than a hatamoto .

Pretty much. Though Geisha really are not prostitutes, and the costs of some entertainers are astronomical....

15 hours ago, TheWanderingJewels said:

Edit: I'll be sorting through this and breaking it down into denominations to make it easier to use in game.

Gold Rush Games' RPG "Sengoku" did it for you. ?

I know this came up a lot in the context of the old L5R game. There were no price lists in the game book, even though lots of player asked for it. The most common explanation I heard was - are you a Samurai? Then you work for a Daimyo. Do you need something for your job? Ask the Daimyo for it, and convince him/her that you need it.

Are you a Ronin (with no master)? You will have a hard time convincing a sword smith to make you one, since they are all employed by a Daimyo. You may have to get creative. There wasn’t anything similar to a “market” where you could buy weapons or armor or things like that.

That was how the old game handled it, I’m not sure what the new game will do, but I liked this aspect of the game. There were tons of RP opourtunities around “you work for a minor Daimyo of X clan, and need a new Y. Work your way up the chain doing whatever favors need doing until they agree to give/make it for you”

7 hours ago, bcbroom said:

I know this came up a lot in the context of the old L5R game. There were no price lists in the game book, even though lots of player asked for it. The most common explanation I heard was - are you a Samurai? Then you work for a Daimyo. Do you need something for your job? Ask the Daimyo for it, and convince him/her that you need it.

Are you a Ronin (with no master)? You will have a hard time convincing a sword smith to make you one, since they are all employed by a Daimyo. You may have to get creative. There wasn’t anything similar to a “market” where you could buy weapons or armor or things like that.

That was how the old game handled it, I’m not sure what the new game will do, but I liked this aspect of the game. There were tons of RP opourtunities around “you work for a minor Daimyo of X clan, and need a new Y. Work your way up the chain doing whatever favors need doing until they agree to give/make it for you”

I agree that samurai don't 'go shopping' in the same way, and for that matter paying too close attention to finance was something seen as distasteful verging on dishonourable. But, this is a relatively open-ended base system: someone could end up as a garrison commander or even a daimyo themselves in a campaign.

Equally, yes, ronin will have trouble getting a smith to work for them, but would probably end up having to pay. Ronin are sworn (temporarily) into service, but the assorted fictions do use words like 'hired' or 'in the pay of', and mercenary troops generally have to look after their own arsenal out of their pay...

Personally, I think one of the most refreshing parts of running L5R as opposed to... well just about any other RPG... is the removal of the profit motivation, and while I appreciate the historical research, I think I'm going to stick with "If you're not ronin, get it from your Daimyo. If they don't give it to you, you obviously don't need it. If you are ronin, its time to start hustling..."

I did like the b-box's handling a lot honestly. and there seems to be checks for requisitioning gear. I think those two things will be enough for most groups.

The beta actually gives a fully-rounded mechanic for petitioning your lord for extra equipment As well as a way of just requisitioning stuff by saying "This all belongs to your daimyo anyway, so my daimyo will pay your daimyo for it. Or you can just pay, particularly when you are in a different Clan's lands. There's even a technique for going "Wow, isn't it lucky I bought one of those last time we were in town."

The lack of a viable currency system was a plague in the earlier editions. True the majority of characters had no need for it, but a ronin very much did, and several schools, such as the Yasuki and the minor clan artisan school that escapes my mine atm did in fact need it. My eventual solution for such matters was using the Sengoku rpg system which fit in nearly seamlessly. Starting koku worked very well to measure a new characters annual stipend. Made the cash dependent characters work. Plus a great book for additional fluff

On 8/29/2018 at 6:40 PM, bcbroom said:

I know this came up a lot in the context of the old L5R game. There were no price lists in the game book, even though lots of player asked for it.

Uh, which edition are you talking about? It's a problem only in 2E AFAIK. Let's check...

1E: price list starts on page 66
2E: Not in core... But the exotic weapons and daimyo books (joint l5R 2e and D20) prices are available.
d20: in the D&D-OA Rokugan book, we get a lot of prices in rokugani currency - pretty much more than any "proper L5R" book.
3E: page 171 (and for over a dozen pages) - every item has a listed price.
4E: pages 198-207
5Eβ: on pages 144, 146, 148. The prices of things on the unpriced Travel Pack list that are priced elsewhere runs 1K to 5z... so anything else there should be similar.

Also, back in the day, some very helpful person typed up the price lists from 1E for 2E players to use.

On 9/1/2018 at 2:01 PM, AK_Aramis said:

Uh, which edition are you talking about? It's a problem only in 2E AFAIK. Let's check...

I'm not familiar with anything after the original edition. I'm not saying it wasn't in the rules at all, but 'how much for an X' was a common question at conventions. The 'ask your daimyo' bit was the standard answer I heard.

Wasn't that also part of the joke about the "Merchant's Guide to Rokugan" -- you'll finally get your price list?

Personally, I feel that making "I get cool equipment" something of a story award ("You won this tournament! Get a pretty sword!") or something you have to petition your Daimyo for ("You need how many suits of armor again? Okay... I guess... yeah, I have them lying around, just in case. Just get them back to me when you're done.") is very appropriate for most Great Clan samurai. They have literally an entire kingdom (in feudal terms) backing them on some level, with a robust supply chain. Being a Great Clan samurai means, ideally, you never have to worry about where your next meal is coming from or who makes your clothes. For the most part.

The system breaks down when dealing with high court ("Oh, your kimono was made by only a single person? No wonder it is so... quaint. Mine was crafted by a dozen servants over the course of three years.") or Minor Clans ("Sorry, man. We don't have a dozen spare sets of armor lying around. We only have about ten samurai in the entire Clan, and all the armor we have is in use."), and goes straight out the window when dealing with Ronin. Playing a Ronin should genuinely FEEL different than playing a Great Clan samurai, and part of that should be the day to day struggle of trying to make a living in a feudal world which only uses currency for taxation purposes (or illegal transactions).

2 hours ago, sndwurks said:

The system breaks down when dealing with high court ("Oh, your kimono was made by only a single person? No wonder it is so... quaint. Mine was crafted by a dozen servants over the course of three years.")

"You should see to your girl. She... she isn't any good. She made you a dress looks like you bought it in a store."

I'm guessing it will be covered some in the Core book, but is there some kind of primer out there for culture and etiquette in Rok Uganda (I'm leaving the autocorrect like this for the silliness factor) in the meantime for my players new to the genre? Kind of like the do's and don'ts of society and everyday life.

A good and free start below, but your best bet is the old Emerald Empire book, or the new one that comes out some time after the core book.

http://www.kazenoshiro.com/2011/07/15/the-samurais-primer-2/

9 hours ago, sndwurks said:

The system breaks down when dealing with high court ("Oh, your kimono was made by only a single person? No wonder it is so... quaint. Mine was crafted by a dozen servants over the course of three years.") or Minor Clans ("Sorry, man. We don't have a dozen spare sets of armor lying around. We only have about ten samurai in the entire Clan, and all the armor we have is in use."), and goes straight out the window when dealing with Ronin. Playing a Ronin should genuinely FEEL different than playing a Great Clan samurai, and part of that should be the day to day struggle of trying to make a living in a feudal world which only uses currency for taxation purposes (or illegal transactions).

Agreed wholeheartedly.

Ronin - especially those born to the finer things - should really feel the bite of hand-to-mouth work when 'between masters' (or when doing seven samurai-esque work to protect heimin villages or really minor clans).

The fact that a group of ronin sworn into a great clan's service can basically acquire any amount of weapons they need with a trivial courtesy check (any rarity 5 or less weapon is TN1 for the starting glory of most great clan families) one week and need pretty much their entire life savings to get a single suit the next (5 koku is more than some family's starting wealth) helps drive home the sell-sword feel.

18 hours ago, bcbroom said:

I'm not familiar with anything after the original edition. I'm not saying it wasn't in the rules at all, but 'how much for an X' was a common question at conventions. The 'ask your daimyo' bit was the standard answer I heard.

Wasn't that also part of the joke about the "Merchant's Guide to Rokugan" -- you'll finally get your price list?

Well, it wasn't an issue in 1st edition. The prices, while not of need used by samurai, were present for the GM to use as a baseline, and for the samurai to know what he can and should get away with ... and for rōnin and for traveling samurai.

See, a traveling samurai's lord is expected to compensate the local for the traveler's expenses. It's a matter of politeness to pay as you go when outside of your lord's land. It makes life easier for both daimyō. It makes the Dōshin's life easier - he doesn't need to track what you owe. It makes the peasant's life easier, too - he doesn't have to beg for the daimyō to repay him your expenses. Therefore, it's polite.

And if samurai society is any one thing, it's polite. 2-shaku to 3-shaku razors on every samurai's hip, and jitte or sai on every doshin's... politeness is what keeps one skin whole... A rude samurai may be treated as if drunk by the dōshin - it's less embarrassing to be accused of being drunk than to be accused of theft, or of being an enemy. Sure, the peasants (except those who are dōshin) will politely ignore a rude samurai, but the dōshin won't.

A rude samurai is a problem for the local lord, and the dōshin are the beat cops...

Why? Because if the samurai are rude to the peasants, the peasants become upset. When enough become upset, they rebell. Being impolite to your daimyō's peasants is thus being impolite to your daimyō, and also being a traitor. A rude traveling samurai is more of a problem - is he a rōnin? Is he an enemy? Is he a disguised oni? Why is he sowing discontent? Is he a wandering murderer? Or a psychotic duelist looking to provoke a duel?

The dōshin needs to know. The dōshin needs to know if you're allowed to be there - so his daimyō can bill your daimyō if needed, and because without permission, you're axiomatically an enemy. Now, a local rōnin who turns out when the hue and cry goes up, and who doesn't rob, steal, etc, and pays for his meals? The dōshin need not trouble the daimyō... unless asked. The traveler paying his own way with papers is a footnote. The rude traveler, or the drunkard, or the broke one, because of the hostility to the samurai caste they can create, they are a problem to send the runner to the yoriki, and the yoriki to inform the daimyō.

Fundamentally, one can extrapolate to rudeness by samurai being treason, because it undermines the empire's social structure. Sure, that's hyperbole...

Paying one's way when traveling is thus a politeness that avoids overreactions, and makes both peasant and local daimyō pleased to see the samurai. Even if he's a rōnin.

Offering to help when a hue and cry goes up is also a politeness.
Defusing the hostile samurai is a politeness - not just to him, but to the peasants, the daimyō, all the locals, and the emperor and all samurai.
Being polite is a samurai's duty. Not inconveniencing the locals is part of that. Paying one's way on the road is polite.

46 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

A lot of great stuff

That is an excellent way to characterize it! I'd probably lean more towards the 'debit papers' since 'money is dirty and samurai don't handle it.' But I do really like this explanation.

27 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:

That is an excellent way to characterize it! I'd probably lean more towards the 'debit papers' since 'money is dirty and samurai don't handle it.' But I do really like this explanation.

There are other methods of account that are also likely.

• Coupons: "Give X to Y, come to Z for payment" Some may even be woodcut printed then pressed with the chop of the issuer.
• Personal promissory notes: "I, W, promise to pay X to Y when he sees me at Z" (Z is time and location) Better be signed.
• Letters of account: Merchant drafts a letter to the daimyō, and the samurai signs it. Usually over a total. Similar to a check in practice. (Precursor, actually.)
• tokens - one samurai in a prior game wrote his note to the daimyō authorizing payment on a paper which he then folded into a crane. Another simply made his own (wooden) koku and bu tokens. While his tokens seldom came back, they became souvenirs and endorsements, worth more on display than the face value wood-burned into them. (They bore his mon and his promise to pay.)
• bank-books: tends to be urban only - you have a book from the bank (or the lord), and it has their official chop on deposits; you journal voucher money over, and both parties sign both books. When they go into the bank next, they get a credit of the money, unless you go in and show that you didn't enter it.
• Skilled efforts: many a rōnin trades service for food. Not menial, usually. A few kaiu have been known to travel on the cheap by offering to do minor repairs. Shugenja by laying a blessing. Kakita by the gift of song or poem, or even painting. If the Kakita can leave the whole room crying over the love poem, who dares charge them? Likewise, the Hida can easily agree to go talk to your wife-beating brother-in-law... and drop a note off with the Dōshin that he did so.

1 minute ago, AK_Aramis said:

• Coupons: "Give X to Y, come to Z for payment" Some may even be woodcut printed then pressed with the chop of the issuer.
• Personal promissory notes: "I, W, promise to pay X to Y when he sees me at Z" (Z is time and location) Better be signed.
• Letters of account: Merchant drafts a letter to the daimyō, and the samurai signs it. Usually over a total. Similar to a check in practice. (Precursor, actually.)

*has nightmare flashbacks to studying commercial paper for the bar exam*

On 9/6/2018 at 11:09 AM, Hida Jitenno said:

*has nightmare flashbacks to studying commercial paper for the bar exam*

Makes me think back to senior year in my undergrad, taking US History: Early National Period. One of the other students presented on the methods of account in period. (I chose instead medical licensure. Which, in period, pretty much meant "NY State Medical Board"...)

Sorry for the threadomancy, but after months of research on the subject, long hours at work, and several bouts of hospital (tinnitus, Kidney stones, checks for cancer) draining my energy dry, I've looked over the financial system used during the Sengoku and earlier eras, I'm going to give a general once over on this . Of note, Major cities are the only ones that usually bother with gold as coinage, with silver being the typical coinage seen in trade, and copper coins being the most common. some of this is kibbled from my older 4th edition notes

Coinage & Rice

First a samurai must become accustomed to the coinage of the empire, and have a basic grasp of what each coin represents. Coinage is important, as samurai and peasants cannot simply run around carrying dozens or hundreds of bushels of rice around everywhere to pay for things.

Rice is the economic standard of Rokguan. Rice is a labor intensive food that keeps peasants too busy growing it to foment rebellions, taking five peasants per season per koku grown, who are fed millet and not rice, excepting special occasions and bountiful years. Samurai stipends and values of all objects are based on the koku. The koku is also used as a measurement of weight.

Coinage is minted on a standard, with each clan minting their own coinage with permission from the Imperial Treasurer’s office, minted at the end of the harvest season. Coins are only “worth” their value with the clan that minted them (Imperially minted coins are accepted in all clans). Clans are honor-bound to accept coinage minted in their lands and must exchange them for rice if requested. Merchants and daimyo can exchange coins, typically charging a 1% standard transaction fee.

Koku – One koku is (roughly) enough rice to feed one person for one year at a subsistance level existence. Koku are typically divided into five equal bags of rice, each worth one bu. The koku is approximately 278.3 liters of rice weighing 150kg (330 lbs) in weight.

Zeni – The most basic coin is a round copper coin one sun (1 inch) in diameter with a hole in the middle. One zeni represents enough sustenance-level food to feed one person for a day (read as a bowl of rice and some pickled vegetables, or twice as much in millet). Zeni are typically strung in groups of 100 or 1000 coins for ease of carrying and for moderate purchases.

Monme-ita – The monme-ita is a small rectangular coin of silver weighing one monme (3.75 grams). One monme-ita represents enough food to feed one person for one month.

Ichibukin – The ichibukin, or simply bu, represents enough food to feed one man for roughly 2 ½ months (6 weeks).

Chogin- the chogin is a moderate sized silver coin 3 sun (3.75 inches) in length weight. Typically used by traders and middle ranking samurai for large purchases. It is worth one koku of rice.

Bu-Shoban: the bu-shoban is a smaller gold coin used by upper ranked samurai and higher end merchants trading in Koku values. It's value is the same as the chogin..

Ni-bu: as the name might suggest it is a coin worth 2 Bu-shoban in value.

Ryo – The ryo represents 4 koku of rice. The ryo is a gold coin 2 sun (2.5 inches) in length and weighing 16.5 grams. Typically a ryo will be cast in an alloy of 85% gold with 15% silver, to make it more durable. Ryo can be stacked in groups of 25 or 50 and wrapped in heavy paper sealed with wax and a seal to mark where it was bundled.

Oban – The oban is a more rare coin, typically minted to commemorate an important event, or simply for Large cash transfers (ie taxes). One oban is worth 40 ryo.

1 oban = 40 ryo 1 bu = 200 zeni 1 monme-ita = 83 zeni 1 ryo = 4 Chogin

1 ryo = 4 Bu-shoban 1 ryo = 12 monme-ita 1 ryo = 1,000 zeni 1 ryo = 2 Ni-Bu

Large amounts of money can be carried in specially designed wooden boxes called senryobaku (box of 1,000 ryo) and buryobaku (box of 500 ryo).

Income & Stipends

Income and stipends are figured on a seasonal basis, with each season lasting for six months. Samurai were given a stipend rated in koku per season to represent their value to their lord. For instance, a samurai in a post that gets a stipend of 100 ryo per season is said to be “worth 100 koku”. This designation does not take into consideration any other income gained through merchant work or other sources, and when taxes come due, it is up to the samurai to honorably record such income for tax assessment.

A samurai gets a stipend of money equal to ((Starting koku + Wealth rank) x Status Rank) + Glory Rank = seasonal income in ryo.

Remember to keep all fractions as silver (Bu). This is paid out twice a year, once in spring before debts are due and the summer wars begin, and once in late fall at harvest time. Additional pay based on terrific bonuses, gifts, Imperial Salary, Family pay, Clan pay, and holdings are usually applied after all the multipliers as a flat increase.

For example: a Rank 3 Doji courtier with Wealth 3, Status 2.5 and Glory 4.5 would get 49 ryo and 3 bu twice a year (15 starting koku + Wealth 3, * 2.5 Status, +4.5 Glory), plus any additional income from Social Position; if she happens to be a Doji family magistrate she gets an additional 50 ryo per season.

Another example: a Rank 1 Akodo bushi, Status 1.0 and Glory 1.0 (a new character) would get 9 ryo per season (3 starting koku * 1.0 Status + 1.0 Glory + 5 as a Hohei).

Samurai are paid based on their status rank:

• Ji-samurai (minor clans, hired ronin and ashigaru) are paid directly in rice equal to their koku value. They must then barter or sell part of this rice to have money to purchase other necessities.

• Samurai of the bonge caste (usually Status 1.0 to 6.9) will usually be paid in enough rice to feed their family and retainers, and the remainder of their stipend in coinage. They may then take their coins to the granaries of their clan and trade them in for rice as they need it.

• Samurai of the kuge caste (usually Status 7.0 or greater) are typically paid entirely in coinage due to the large stipends they draw. The kuge control the rice stores and can access them as needed.

Taxes

Taxes are collected and paid at the end of each season. Taxes are usually paid in koku of rice, although taxes may also be paid in jade, steel and other precious commodities. How this all works, from the bottom up:

• Peasants do not have the right to govern land on their own, and hand over 100% of their rice harvest to the samurai governing their farm.

• The samurai governing the individual farms hands over 40-50% of this harvest, and in turn his stipend is paid out of this amount. A samurai might oversee as many as a half dozen farms in this manner.

• The provincial governor collects the rice from the samurai under their command, and pay approximately 40-50% of this rice to their family daimyo. Of the remainder, he must pay out his retainers.

• The family daimyo collects the rice from the provincial governors and pays 40-50% of this to the clan daimyo.

• The clan daimyo collects the rice from the family daimyo and pays 40-50% of this to the imperial tax collector to be stored in the imperial granaries.

So, just how much rice is this? The largest rice producing clan is the Crane (before recent events that is). On a good year, the Crane produce over one million koku of rice per season. Other clans produce from 300,000 to 600,000 koku of rice per season.

Aside from the usual taxes, all clans are required to tithe 33% of any jade production to the imperial coffers to be supplied to the Crab.

Clan Trade

The current roster of major trade goods for each of the clans is as follows:

Crab

Import: jade, rice

Export: steel, raw iron, stone

Crane

Import: exotic foodstuffs, raw materials

Export: fine goods, rice

Dragon

Import: foodstuffs, fine goods

Export: steel, raw iron, paper, gold, minerals

Lion

Import: raw materials, seafood

Export: copper

Mantis

Import: raw materials

Export: silk, spices, citrus fruit, pearls, exotic seafood

Phoenix

Import: exotic goods

Export: silver, lumber

Scorpion

Import: raw materials

Export: information

Unicorn

Import: finished goods

Export: exotic goods, horses

Loans

From time to time, a samurai needs cash beyond his means, perhaps to get a gift for someone important. Merchants are often willing to lend samurai money with an interest rate of 10% per year. Many samurai chafe at the idea, but honor compels them to make good on their word, lest their family name be maligned.

Thanks a TON for your work and effort. This is EXACTLY what I was working on for my own campaign, and you did it better than I ever could. I love how the empire as described in 5th seems to more or less work properly on historical standards, and I can see this coming in very handy!

4 hours ago, TheWanderingJewels said:

Loans

From time to time, a samurai needs cash beyond his means, perhaps to get a gift for someone important. Merchants are often willing to lend samurai money with an interest rate of 10% per year. Many samurai chafe at the idea, but honor compels them to make good on their word, lest their family name be maligned.

1

I always wondered about this. As per the canon Celestial Order, even the lowliest samurai can just... take the money from the merchant without suffering any major consequences other than maybe ( maybe ) pissing off the merchant's samurai patron if they actually have one. The merchant can't say 'no' because he is the lowliest kind of half-person and should be happy to give money to a samurai. Law doesn't protect the merchant, this is not theft. The merchant cant, say, bribe an official because the official can take the merchant's money too with no obligations attached. If the merchant resists then the samurai can just strike them down on the spot. At the very best the merchant can have a budoka bodyguard to throw into the grinder while they flee with their money or something. The samurai might feel compelled to actually ask nicely and offer some kind of (maybe symbolic) compensation because Compassion is a thing, but other than that, the merchant is entirely at the samurai's mercy and it is in their best interest to just give them the money and be done with it. Let alone name a friggin interest. That seems like a good way to eat the blade of a katana.