@Lasers

Except that Mr. LoC is a little busy using My Will Obeyed, and isn't expecting your Projection to show up beside his inert body.

Are you seriously just using "Lord of Change" and "isn't expecting" in the same sentence?
At this point, I'd say we're playing different games and can end that debate.

@Cailieg

What I honestly do not get is the desire for some players of Psyker characters to defend the broken mechanics of their class to death. Instead of working for a viable solution to increase the fun factor of all players.

I'm not quite sure whether you're implying me here, considering I don't play a psyker (in fact, I generally just GM). That the psyker right now is somewhat broken doesn't really need to be debated, but there are a few more checks and balances when it comes to really powerful enemies than are given credit for at the moment.

On another note, as a GM call I would agee with those who say that the Psyker would NOT see blanks in their visions. Cast nothing into the Immaterium means nothing. So the Immaterium has no image to toss the Psyker's way. The call on the Initiative precog power and blanks though will require my thinking on it more. As it is both a power that affects the Psychic but one that indirectly detects an enemy that cannot be detected.

If it's a one-on-one fight, I'd negate the power. In a normal combat situation, I'd let the psyker choose whether he wants to use the power's initiative bonus or not. If he does, he can't act against the Blank during that turn.

@Cipher- I am mostly still hinging that comment on other posters earlier in the thread, not yourself sir, nor did I mean in any way to seem so. I figured the lack of an @ would indicate that;.... mayhaps I should edit the post and remove that part....

Alexis

*smiles*

Are you seriously just using "Lord of Change" and "isn't expecting" in the same sentence?
At this point, I'd say we're playing different games and can end that debate.

Again, it's not fair to arbitrarily assume the LoC is prepared for every last contingency, and that any attempt to thwart him is in fact playing into some sort of deathtrap. That doesn't make for an interesting opponent so much as GM railroading and god modding. If that's the kind of game you want to play, by all means, and Projection is just one of several methods the Psyker can use to kill the LoC and his cell at that point.

As for Preternatural Awareness, besides the RAW which does permit the Psyker to retain his Initiative bonus, the outcome of the Assassin's actions and its interactions with him are not invisible to the Psyker, only the Assassin itself.

Also I'd say the Psyker is more than 'somewhat, kinda, sorta' broken. He can do basically almost (if not quite) everything the so called specialists in various areas can do, and he can do it _better_ and now without risks (that weren't meaningful in the first place due to Favoured of the Warp).

Also I do not defend the Psyker so much as I seek to exactly demonstrate just how bad (or good) he is at totally breaking the game and ruining its balance.

I don’t think RAW applies to opponents. My Lord of Change is not going to look anything like the one from a book. I learned that lesson about 20 years ago when I picked up Deities and Demigods and learned the Ultimate Truth of Gaming… “If you stat it, they will kill it.” The first thing my group did was level up, kit out, storm Asgard and take Mjolnir off the steaming corpse of Thor. Pretty sure I enslaved Loviatar, Goddess of Pain until she agreed to marry me too.

Does your Lord of Change match the one in the book? Every time?

A Lord of Change is a Greater Daemon of the Warp. As a pre-pubescent twinkle in the eye of Daddy Chaos, it was crafting warp-castles with its mind and flattening them into their component parts. The result of such playful antics were things like solar systems and black holes. That was eight trillion years ago in man’s reckoning as passage of time in the warp is immaterial. The very power that the Imperium draws on is the animate matter of this creature. It’s a Warp-Daemon, it doesn’t need stats.

A Lord of Change would have one power…

Warp Sh1t.
-The ability to Warp Sh1t. Based on some number that I came up with in my head based on how strong I wanted this bloke to be. This number would be used to roll against…

(-0 Difficulty)Minor Sh1t: Turning an Imperial Guard platoon into a set of tires. Turning a Primaris Psyker into an Untouchable. Making every human in a 10km radius go insane. Opening up a portal to the Warp.
(-10 Difficulty)Major Sh1t: Shutting off the connection of an entire planet to the Warp. Making a voidship fleet into its personal Tonka Toy.
(-20) Big Sh1t: Stuff that falls between above and below.
(-30)Legendary Sh1t: Engulfing a Sector in a warp storm.

A Secondary Power may include something like…

Tap Psyker A$$:
-Any Psyker drawing on the warp (ie. The Daemon) in its presence (ie. Same planet) is subject to automatic Phenomena, Possession or just plain Paste. Obviously, any Psyker activity that utilizes the warp specifically to locate/research/find/smell the Daemon is immediately apparent and draws the attention of the Lord of the Change who can, because it ain’t called the Immaterium for nothing, in and say “Hi!”

Daemon Name: Knowing a single component (if I recall... they have like four-nine components) is usually enough to make someone a gibbering lunatic. Putting them all together is sort of like assembling an atomic bomb in your mom's basement with a pair of rubber gloves... the gloves, they do nothing!

My Lord of Change would whip the pigtails right off of yours. But that's not the point... the point is that the players shouldn't be arming up to fight the Lord of Changes, they should be working from stopping its manifestation.

EDIT: I echo the above point in saying... we're not playing the same game.

6Kilgs said:

Oh wow that was a great read, you made me smile, chuckle and brought a twinkle of refreshing light to my eyes. The last part is the most important and is bolded for reference of import...

Alexis

*chuckles*

The assumption seems to be the every Primaris Psyker will have both Force Barrage and Preternatural Awareness.

Just sayin'.

Its not a suggestion, it's a fact. Plus they'll all have Dominate. Also, of course they'll have Firestorm and Holocaust as well.

6Kilgs said:

That's all well and dandy, and I quite agree for the most part. It is also irrelevant to the power of a psyker. One could compare our uberpsyker to a Necron Lord, Tyranid Hive Tyrant, Space Marine, or a battleship, and see that in relation to other available careers it will still perform far better than anyone else can, barring exceedingly contrived circumstances which do nothing for the argument either way.

In short, it still remains that the OP has shown primaris psykers to be exceptionally powerful, and indeed overpowered, compared to say, our favoured whipping boy the stormtrooper (commander?) or any other 'mundane' nonpsyker. Especially due to Unnatural Willpower x(whatever the hell they reach).

Lasers said:

Everything I know about Tzeench tells me that this is basically what he and his greater demons live for. As a player, I'd feel cheated if I ever outsmarted or did anything that a LoC didn't predict or have a plan for because I'd know the GM is going easy on me.

Yanma said:

Besides, unlike other games, RPGs aren't supposed to be fair.

Look, (and I'm trusting the OP's math to be correct here), a LoC should be a genius, he should have plans, he probably will try to avoid combat with lowly pcs (even Ascension level ones), but not because he (or rather the GM) is scared of fighting them because he (or rather the GM) knows he wouldn't stand a chance, which is basically what the apologistas here are saying. A LoC (even as described in the fluff in Ascension) is meant to be LETHAL, every canonical source is agreed on that. There is certainly no canonical source I'm aware of where a greater demon of that level is taken out in a single storming attack from a single person. This is just wrong. No amount of wrangling or obfuscations will change that.

If a single pc can take out even 1 LoC in a round something is rotten in Denmark with the rules or the scaling of the pcs. End of.

Adam France said:

+1

There is certainly no canonical source I'm aware of where a greater demon of that level is taken out in a single storming attack from a single person. This is just wrong. No amount of wrangling or obfuscations will change that.

If you want to get technical...
Warhammer Fantasy, 7th edition, Lore of Light, first spell. Roll a 6 for hits, wound with six, botch all saves. I know it's happened to me once...

Of course, that has a slightly lower chance of happening than the Force Barrage cheese.

"Its not a suggestion, it's a fact. Plus they'll all have Dominate. Also, of course they'll have Firestorm and Holocaust as well."

Naw, much as I appreciate your attempt to satirize the number crunchers, you only really need three schools; Telepathy, Divination, Telekinesis, which is very doable, possibly substituting Telepathy for Biomancy for the sole sake of Seal Wounds. Remember; bringing up isolated powers (such as Firestorm/Holocaust) as an illustrative example is not equivalent to making the assertion that every Psyker will have them. That said however, Divination and Telekinesis are most certainly musts.

"If a single pc can take out even 1 LoC in a round something is rotten in Denmark with the rules or the scaling of the pcs. End of. "

Yep, though it is worth noting that Inquisitor Psykers can reach low-grade Alpha Psyker levels of power using Psy 14 as a benchmark, and they can most definitely rend an LoC to its constituent atoms without effort.

Lasers said:

It is funny, when DH first came out, i took Divination because everyone else in my group said it was the weakest of the schools, that and I liked the idea of playing a Diviner rather than a combat god. I ended up being probably the most useful character in the campaign.

Yeah, Divination is a really strong contender for best discipline. The only thing that really keeps Telekinesis in the running for that title is the exponentially scaling power of several of its techniques, and the fact that it has some very compelling answers for high level threats that Divination does not (sadly, after a certain point, Divine Shot just doesn't cut it anymore).

6Kilgs said:

Pffft. Everyone knows the GM's responsibility isn't to see that players have an interesting fight, silly! The rules are the manifest word of God, and all the GM can do is facilitate the imposing RAW monolith. Why on earth WOULDN'T players want to fight an enemy they can kill in one turn?

I've got artillery barrages from an Imperial Guard or PDF regiment that can flatten a Lord(s) of Change pretty well too (and **** near anything else), sure they're only BS 30 and have all the gormless charm that common peons in WH40k have to endear them, but there are many thousands of them on many thousands of worlds, with many thousands of very, very big guns... they're also less likely to be insufferable, massive wankers that end-level Psykers are likely to be by that stage.

Looking at it that way, taking Mr Lord of Change out the back for a friendly GM's chat, being my favourite big NPC for a possible adventure I don't want him to mess this up by making himself well know to the point that some bunch of dumbo's that smell like old socks, armed with the IQ in double digits and howitzers can blow him up, he will need some training to get this right. Being that he's relatively smart, he wont have his arse hanging out in the breeze so any old bozo can shoot it off.

Plan A

1: Have some idiot summon you, move onto step 2

2: Establish cult of worshippers very, very quickly... because just by showing up, you probably made yourself felt.

3: Possess everybody in cult with the many dozens of horrors and daemonic buddies you can pop out at a prodigious rate

3.A: Poop on a statue of 'Teh Emperah' like a very big pidgeon

4: Send unbound daemon hosts out to get more 'friends' to possess and remove ANY possible threat to world domination

5: Aquire critical mass of possessed cultists, implode planet, move onto the next one.

That step between 4 and 5 is a bit of a doozey I must admit, assuming my friend the Lord of Change can get at least 50% of step 4 done, the situation is more or less just a case of a self-perpetuating process to the inevitable end conclusion, regardless of some halfwit with a howitzer, same said halfwits probably are up to their necks in firey things and unbound daemon hosts to even bother finding you to shoot at. Hell at this point, quite literally you might at this stage have several regiments of possessed guardsmen with very, very big guns, so as soon as the Low-Alpha psyker arrives, have them blow up the position.

5.A: Brag to half a dozen lords of Change how you capped some psykers arse with a howitzer barrage before the idiot even knew what was happening

To be honest, by the time my players get around to chucking this kind of stuff in-game, I'll probably be into my early 40's or dead from some embarrassing dice misadventure

MKX said:

Dear Sir,

I find your ideas to be engaging and thought-provoking. In addition to signing up for your newsletter, it just so happens that I may be recruiting in the Minnesota area for a DH game. It is quite evident that we're playing the same game. I believe you and your "heretical thoughts" would be an excellent fit. Should I mark you down for tea this Sunday to discuss?

Sincerely,

T. "My LoC can beat up your LoC" Kilgs

I would love too, but there is a slight problem being 14,500km away and I'll be working all Sunday killing player characters for fun and amusement on Malfi.

Lasers said:

You say that, but did your Primaris ever sit at the controls (perhaps zone of compulsioning some folks into enacting his will) of a Titanforge Lance Turret thinking-and-neuromotoring after "Where's my old nemesis, Lord Blarghaldfhphetep'anela'qoih McChange?"

As for one-shotting the LoC. I'm content with that. If the GM's somehow let the players into that situation, then I wouldn't be terribly tempted to penalise the players for seeing a way out. I do, however, imagine PCs would be absolute terrified of doing anything due to fear of doing Tzeentch's will.

Still 'everything being Tzeentch's will is no reason for the players to have to be cheated, but it's a perfect reason to get more than they bargained for. Lords of change split into horrors/flamers and such, right?

In campaigns against Tzeetchian cultists 'in league with a Lord of Change' (i.e. that's an end [beginning!] campaign boss), especially if the players themselves know about it. Be frank: the GM has to fudge up some annoying rules. Don't let the characters know it, but be honest with the players: There's going to be fluctuations in their influence. There's always going to be concentrated 'gnawing' at their influence. -D10 influence per week, say it straight. Perhaps the affliction of developing one new 'random' rivalry each week. 'Good Reputation (Phaeonite)' might help make for amusing influences.

In terms of being fair to the players, given the rules of Ascension as it stands, my hands would be tied: they can one-shot a LoC, but the writing of the companion work for the LoC basically advises GMs to be innovative in their use. That's not to suggest they've got to be annoying gits railroading the PCs left right and centre into an unalterable fate, but to come up with exotic not-easily-codified ways of challenging the players with such a foe.

If the players don't bite? Then the LoC just goes away, they've beaten it by just not being interested...

PRACTICAL SOLUTIONS

The RT aspect seems fairly legitimate, to me. I've not looked through it in detail, and I don't think I've seen the maths on it online yet, but how would it work if the rule was just imported wholesale, how much of a difference would it make at mad Ascension levels?

Earlier someone mentioned "psykers as demigods tramping across everyone else"; I may be wrong, but that's what separates 40k and Harry Potter from D&D, right? Magic users just are 'better' in that strict sense. In 40k psykers and gods, excepting the C'tan, are one and the same, effectively. Psykers, by their nature, are a leg up on everyone else. Almost like the Jedi, but better. With that in mind, though from a playing-perspective, I don't like the fact, I do think it's reflective of the background, of sorts. It's just that the rules themselves don't also reflect the 'spread of the curve' for which archetypal PCs will crop up, right?

With that in mind, one-shotting a LoC is fair enough. But you shouldn't be roving around investigating cults at that level.

Having said that, for a PC-focussed game (obviously), my inclination is that the 'Unnatural Characteristic' mechanism is just hamfisted. But that's intrinsic now, so exept from bringing it up when it comes to the possibility of 'next edition', it's not something I'm hugely bothered by.

You say that, but did your Primaris ever sit at the controls (perhaps zone of compulsioning some folks into enacting his will) of a Titanforge Lance Turret thinking-and-neuromotoring after "Where's my old nemesis, Lord Blarghaldfhphetep'anela'qoih McChange?"

TS Luikart (AFAIK main writer of the psy rules) suggested on the forums that Divine Shot should only be useable for non-heavy weapons the psyker has spent some time attuning to, precisely to avoid the "One-shot the big bad with a lascannon from a mile away" problem.

Doesn't really make much sense though, does it? Sure, balance-wise I've no quibble with it; but why, oh, why would it be limited to pistol and basic weapons? It's the same bloomin' mechanism!

(And that's why instead of 'Ascended' powers they should've really went to town on wacky overbleed with the current powers....)

More complicated shot, higher threshold/fettering!

Alternatively: why the Dickens did they create the Vindicare if they don't want you to one-shot big-bads? (Yes, I know, I know, oodles of answers to that. But I'd excepting that the rules don't allow the 'superb shot with lance turret' gimmick, I don't really see why a 'sensible' interpretation of the universe would somehow forbid an actual psyker from jumping onto a starship and *actually* doing that [within the fiction...])

Almost unrelated aside: For myself, I enjoy limiting my 'characters' with the DH/RT rules on the basis that it's a vaguely nice fit to the 'reality of the universe'. Enforcing balance issues complicates my ability to do this drastically, ergo they shouldn't! Xisor = authority. Or not...

Doesn't really make much sense though, does it? Sure, balance-wise I've no quibble with it; but why, oh, why would it be limited to pistol and basic weapons? It's the same bloomin' mechanism!

Ah, so Psychic powers are about making sense, right?
Other than that, look at classic fantasy: How many magic swords have you seen and how many magic trebuchets?
I think it fits a psyker's style more to have his own attuned pistol or rifle with which he can make that million to one shot than some random heavy stubber.

Alternatively: why the Dickens did they create the Vindicare if they don't want you to one-shot big-bads? (Yes, I know, I know, oodles of answers to that. But I'd excepting that the rules don't allow the 'superb shot with lance turret' gimmick, I don't really see why a 'sensible' interpretation of the universe would somehow forbid an actual psyker from jumping onto a starship and *actually* doing that [within the fiction...])

Regarding the Vindicare: Because it's his whole shtick (ok, that and dodging ridiculously many attacks per round). A psyker has to take one power from the dozens he gets to have the "one-shot baddy from half kilometre".
The starship weapon is right out because the psyker can't fire it personally. All starship weapons need a crew to operate, with no singular being adjusting the entire weapon to make that shot. If the psyker was able to coordinate that, he could also use the power to grant someone else the Divine Shot - which isn't possible under the current rules.

My main issue with Psykers isn't that they are powerful. I'm fine with them being god-like, since that is what made the Emperor a god anyway. Sure, best psyker ever, but the power level isn't bothering me. Kill planets with lightning bolts or Exterminatus, it's all the same in the end. Hell, Exterminatus, carried out personally by a Psychic Inquisitor might be out-there, but it's a nice idea.

My main issue is that at higher levels of power, Psykers are not only powerful, but can annihilate armies without any risk of Psychic Phenomena. No Phenomena when fettering powers, which can still easily tear apart multiple battletanks etc with Holocaust or similar. Sure, being able to do this is cool... but I'd like to have some risk.