"On the GM putting the LoC on an advantageous footing, of course he would. It's not arbitrary, it's treating the LoC how he should be. He's a genius, described as a criminal mastermind and a master of plots -in fact, they are created from lies, conspiracies, and plots, it's all they are. If the GM just left him standing in the middle of a cave waiting for a psyker to come along for a proper showdown, then the GM missed the bus completely on what those things are all about. Not placing them in an advantageous position would be a grave injustice to what they are. Just read up on the one presented in ascension. He would play very dirty indeed.

And the psyker, even in the unrealistic showdown situation, wouldn't necessarily go first. The LoC has Preternatural Awareness as well. Anything the psyker can do, he can do as well (and more). Granted, the psyker gets a higher bonus to add, but the LoC could be running about with a bit more overbleed -you can be guaranteed that he pushed with full dice as he don't care about phenomena (9's are is friend and increase his overbleed after all ;-) ). Still, it's a bit of a pointless exercise as the original math was done in a complete vacuum and you would never meet an LoC under such conditions unless the GM as completely fallen asleep. In the end, all those numbers really don't mean much in the game proper.

I seem to recall this exact discussion about Holocaust... (and psykers in general... but that seems to have worked it self out when things stopped being hypothetical and began actually being real in-game accounts of what happens when the psyker isn't in an ideal vacuum any longer...). Granted, they're still hell on wheels, but they don't seem to be as atrocious as some of the earlier vacuum damage numbers were making them out to be. Noting happens in a vacuum (and not that space vacuum, wise-ass ;-p ), not all stats will be optimal, perfect, or close to it, things don't hang around waiting for you to get the on them, tings can fight back, etc. And I think if I say anything more, all I'd be doing is repeating what I've already said."

It is arbitrary if the GM effectively makes it so that no matter what, the LoC is always going to be able to get the on you; that's not an appropriate way to mitigate the Psyker's power. If the Psyker makes a mistake, or acts predictably, etc, fine, by all means, give the LoC his surprise attack, but otherwise, it's silly and unfair to just arbitrarily rule against the former.

Also, no, the LoC cannot consistently achieve the same level of Initiative a mid-high Primaris or Inquisitor Psyker can. Psykers get a substantially higher WP bonus and more Psy Dice, which makes for an exponentially higher result, particularly with Invocation involved:

55 (5.5 * Psy Rating 10) + 54 (WP Bonus 3x, * Invocation) + 4 (Discipline Focus + Power Well 2) + 5 (Discipline Mastery) = (118 - 9) / 10= 10.9 = 10 * 27 + 27 = 297 bonus to Initiative.

LoC = 66 + 32 (WP Bonus 2x * Invocation) + 5 (Discipline Mastery) = (103 - 9) / 10 = 9.6 = 9 * 16 + 16 = 166. On average, the LoC will incur 1 Psychic Phenomena, so we increase this to 182.

The difference? A 'mere' 115 points of Initiative.

First off, allow me to say, i understand OP's point. But i submit to you, that flat out combat at high levels, in any game (be it DnD, or whatever) either completely bogs down, or is never really a challenge. And combat in Dark heresy, has never been about the one big baddy (with the exception of that baneblade eater in Creatues anathema) challenging the party IMO. But really, that's just the way i play and run my games. Your mileage may vary.

Now, onto the lord of change hypothetical situation...because, I bit, and raged.

I'd be curious to know how many dice you'll be rolling when manifesting the power. If you 16(assuming psy 16), you have 10% chance, per die, to roll phenomena (for giggles, go roll 16 dice. and see how many 9s you get).You may be favored, and you can reduce the roll by 1d5 every time if you want, but if you get above an 85, with your 80 willpower, i bet you kill yourself. You could always be fettered and use psy 8 if you want(which is baller). At max ,that's 80+28=108-21=87/5=17 extra force bolts. 17d10+408. Still more than enough to kill a lord of change right? Mechanically, yes. But, no.

I throw out the arguement about preternatural awareness allowing you to go first. You'll never know about a lord of change before they know about you. Ever. You fire your furious barrage of force from 270m away and all of these bolts of pure force strike the lord of change. But nothing happens? Why? Simple: The lord of change had cast Immunity(radical's handbook) 1d5 rounds earlier (exactly 1d5 rounds, he's a lord of change) and is no longer subject to impact damage. On his subsequent turn he can do anything, because your primaris psyker is officially boned.

Any time the psyker is ever going to run into a changer of ways, short of tzeentch's great plan (or perhaps, maybe just maybe, you accidently stumble upon his summoning...but that sounds like the architect of fate wanted that to happen right?), it will be on the Changer of Way's terms. Imagine, you go to a hive where you know where one is. He has outfitted every single one of his devoted cultists with a psy focus. Why? My will, obeyed. Every single cultist could potentially be possessed by the Lord of change, in which case, he uses his psychic powers on you. You'd never know it happened. Sure, you could probably destroy most of the potential Lord of Change conduits (the cultists), but one will always get through. And then you're dead.

The only way a Lord of Change will die, is because Tzeentch wants him to die. You're doing Tzeentch's work if you kill him.

Some other greater daemon? Like a bloodthirster that relies on pure physical damage? Maybe(but Khornite daemons do inherently have anti-psyker stuff).

EDIT: sorry, i read 16 psy somewhere. This is 13 pushing. That's suicidal. The psyker gets +15 +/- on his phenomena roll. He has a 25-35% chance to auto-kill himself.

Paradigm said:

OMG that's borken!

"I'd be curious to know how many dice you'll be rolling when manifesting the power. If you 16(assuming psy 16), you have 10% chance, per die, to roll phenomena. You may be favored, and you can reduce the roll by 1d5 every time if you want, but if you get above an 85, with your 80 willpower, i bet you kill yourself. You could always be fettered and use psy 8 if you want(which is baller). At max ,that's 80+28=108-21=87/5=17 extra force bolts. 17d10+408. Still more than enough to kill a lord of change right? Mechanically, yes. But, no."

Wait, so why is rolling above 85 on Perils necessarily a death sentence for a mid-high Ascendant Psyker? Possession is wholly ineffective against him at this point, and he can burn Fate if it's really necessary (not likely). Besides that, upon rolling 16 Psy Dice only 1-2 9s will come up on average, which can further be rerolled. Primaris Psykers can as you've stated also adjust the roll by up to 1d5.

"I throw out the arguement about preternatural awareness allowing you to go first. You'll never know about a lord of change before they know about you. Ever. You fire your furious barrage of force from 270m away and all of these bolts of pure force strike the lord of change. But nothing happens? Why? Simple: The lord of change had cast Immunity(radical's handbook) 1d5 rounds earlier (exactly 1d5 rounds, he's a lord of change) and is no longer subject to impact damage. On his subsequent turn he can do anything, because your primaris psyker is officially boned."

First off, that's not necessarily true, barring arbitrary nonsense and GM god modding on the LoC's behalf. Second, we can use Soul Killer instead if you wish should you feel the LoC may have a chance of pre-immunizing himself to Impact Damage. Anything in Witchesbane, Banishment, Word of the Emperor, any Domination powers (yes, a Psyker can easily mind control and crush the will of an LoC). Same difference really. If the Psyker has first turn, he wins, period.

"Any time the psyker is ever going to run into a changer of ways, short of tzeentch's great plan (or perhaps, maybe just maybe, you accidently stumble upon his summoning...but that sounds like the architect of fate wanted that to happen right?), it will be on the Changer of Way's terms. Imagine, you go to a hive where you know where one is. He has outfitted every single one of his devoted cultists with a psy focus. Why? My will, obeyed. Every single cultist could potentially be possessed by the Lord of change, in which case, he uses his psychic powers on you. You'd never know it happened. Sure, you could probably destroy most of the potential Lord of Change conduits (the cultists), but one will always get through. And then you're dead."

Likewise, I throw out arguments contingent on GM ad hoc and arbitrary overwhelming advantages, particularly that any encounter will always and invariably be on the LoC's terms. Not valid, sorry. Also, the whole cultist tactic is flawed given Psyniscience and Psyker sensitivity to something as psychically blatant as a Greater Daemon. The possessed individual would stick out like a sore thumb, even assuming he didn't mutate horribly, or show any obvious external signs or manifestations of possession. The Psyker then need only destroy the vassal, then the subsequently emerging LoC in one turn; readily doable.

Lasers said:

Well, if my players tried to engage a LoC as they would any other enemy, trusting in their PCs' abilities to protect them, I would slaughter them, the vicious way : Mr. Vindicare turns against the group due to an hypnotic suggestion implanted months earlier by a servant of the LoC, ground enchanted by Chaos magic that would cause a Warp Portal to appear and suck out the Primaris at the first psychic power he uses and so on. I would allow one of two of them to escape, with the appropriate scarring and permanent damage, so that the group could continue and lesson would not be lost.

If a player expects to be able to defeat a LoC just because his character sheet says his PC is a demigod, he's *dead* wrong, imo. It's only by careful planning ad analyzing of the daemon's plans and defenses that they could get the upper hand on it. Anything less would be wasting the LoC's potential as a villain.

First off, and i should have put this in my first post, i apologize for my 'DM ad hocing.' I'm a dinosaur when it comes to the 40k universe and i have a preconceived notion of the powers of creatures, beings, etc. within the universe.

Wait, so why is rolling above 85 on Perils necessarily a death sentence for a mid-high Ascendant Psyker? Possession is wholly ineffective against him at this point, and he can burn Fate if it's really necessary (not likely). Besides that, upon rolling 16 Psy Dice only 1-2 9s will come up on average, which can further be rerolled. Primaris Psykers can as you've stated also adjust the roll by up to 1d5.

This is because of the ascendant ability all primaris psyker's get. They get to mod their rolls by 1d5 for phenomena, sure. But if they ever roll perils they must pass a challenging WP test. If they succeed, they kill themselves. You've got 80 wp. I mean sure, you could burn a fate point, but...

Likewise, I throw out arguments contingent on GM ad hoc and arbitrary overwhelming advantages, particularly that any encounter will always and invariably be on the LoC's terms. Not valid, sorry. Also, the whole cultist tactic is flawed given Psyniscience and Psyker sensitivity to something as psychically blatant as a Greater Daemon. The possessed individual would stick out like a sore thumb, even assuming he didn't mutate horribly, or show any obvious external signs or manifestations of possession. The Psyker then need only destroy the vassal, then the subsequently emerging LoC in one turn; readily doable.

My will obeyed(Ascension) does not reveal the Lord of Change. He's not there. He does not show any(listed) outward signs of possession. A psyniscence test would do it, true. But i think if cultists are attacking him, he'd be doing other things with his turn....like killing cultists.

Sure, a daemon can be banished, but you didn't kill it. And if you're using sorcery...I'd make an argument about how the psyker has already lost the battle then, but since i mechanically can't back it up, i won't.

I'll admit, mechanically, a primaris Psyker wins. I said so in my first post. I have no real desire (despite putting up all that stuff about how a psyker wouldn't win in my first post) to argue that. Because i can't. Mechanically the psyker wins. Yes.

But that's only if he goes first.

Preternatural awareness gives him the jump definitely. But when did he manifest this power? Does he always have it manifested? Or is this something he brought up before the combat even started?

But i would have you note, that FFG specifically tells you to stack the odds in the daemons favor on the very page he's listed.

And while i don't mean to make any claim as to the intentions of FFG's putting a Lord of Change at the exclusion of any other Greater Daemon, this is probably because he's a plotter and not a straight up fighter/damage dealer.

And Plotters, and those behind Plots, are the main enemies in Dark Heresy.

The evidence is in the combat and the power gaps between classes.

And you complain about godmoding. But you know what the cool thing is? Ascension gives you the ability to negate all of these things...through investigation and influence. These are both big parts of Ascension, and allow the PCs to level the playing field and potentially avoid walking into a trap against the Changer of Ways.

Kyorou said:

Sure ... you could GM it in that way, but what the OP is pointing out is the rules wouldn't back you if you did. Players have a right to expect GMs to play by the same rules they do, within reason, to do otherwise is to basically cheat imo and slip into the dreaded railroad route of play.

Re the thought of a PC being able to slay a single LoC in one round, let alone 3 to 8 LoCs (!), that's clearly broken and ridiculous (assuming the math is correct). Was this book actually playtested?

Adam France said:

Oh that's the right question! :-)

It's amazing how many people missed this part of my post:

Paradigm said:

Just remembered something...

What would you say are the chances the Lord has Weaken Veil up 24/7 (or perhaps 287.5*i / pi, if that fits its tastes better)?

@Adam France

Sure ... you could GM it in that way, but what the OP is pointing out is the rules wouldn't back you if you did. Players have a right to expect GMs to play by the same rules they do, within reason, to do otherwise is to basically cheat imo and slip into the dreaded railroad route of play.

While I'd generally agree about this, I think a Lord Of Change (as well as any C'tan manifestations, and perhaps a few farseers) are the points where the DM is allowed to cheat, because it's exactly what the creature can do - predict the future centuries before it happens, outmaneuvre everyone, start plots before the antagonists they will kill are even born. The only method the GM has to portray these abilities is to, well, cheat.

"Well, if my players tried to engage a LoC as they would any other enemy, trusting in their PCs' abilities to protect them, I would slaughter them, the vicious way : Mr. Vindicare turns against the group due to an hypnotic suggestion implanted months earlier by a servant of the LoC, ground enchanted by Chaos magic that would cause a Warp Portal to appear and suck out the Primaris at the first psychic power he uses and so on. I would allow one of two of them to escape, with the appropriate scarring and permanent damage, so that the group could continue and lesson would not be lost.

If a player expects to be able to defeat a LoC just because his character sheet says his PC is a demigod, he's *dead* wrong, imo. It's only by careful planning ad analyzing of the daemon's plans and defenses that they could get the upper hand on it. Anything less would be wasting the LoC's potential as a villain."

I was careful to qualify that making the LoC advantaged is alright IF the Psyker goes in fists swinging like an oblivious idiot. That's fine. What's not fine is making the LoC advantaged no matter what he does or how he prepares. That is unfair railroading and ad-hoc.

"This is because of the ascendant ability all primaris psyker's get. They get to mod their rolls by 1d5 for phenomena, sure. But if they ever roll perils they must pass a challenging WP test. If they succeed, they kill themselves. You've got 80 wp. I mean sure, you could burn a fate point, but..."

Oh that. Well the Inquisitor Psyker doesn't have to worry about it, and the Primaris can easily one shot a LoC at Fettered power anyways.

Sure, a daemon can be banished, but you didn't kill it. And if you're using sorcery...I'd make an argument about how the psyker has already lost the battle then, but since i mechanically can't back it up, i won't.

Killing a Daemon is equivalent to banishing it in virtually every case. There are exceptions (Holocaust, Soul Killer), but they are rare. Soul Killer is also a Telepathy power, not sorcery despite its malevolent sounding name.

My will obeyed(Ascension) does not reveal the Lord of Change. He's not there. He does not show any(listed) outward signs of possession. A psyniscence test would do it, true. But i think if cultists are attacking him, he'd be doing other things with his turn....like killing cultists.

Dowsing will pick out the LoC with ease. He also need not do it in line of sight or effect of the LoC (same is true of basic Psyniscience).

"I'll admit, mechanically, a primaris Psyker wins. I said so in my first post. I have no real desire (despite putting up all that stuff about how a psyker wouldn't win in my first post) to argue that. Because i can't. Mechanically the psyker wins. Yes.

But that's only if he goes first.

Preternatural awareness gives him the jump definitely. But when did he manifest this power? Does he always have it manifested? Or is this something he brought up before the combat even started?"

Smart Psykers expecting any sort of combat, or surprise attack always have Preternatural Awareness up; it's essentially a must have, must use power, and one of the reasons the Divination discipline is one of the best in the game.

"But i would have you note, that FFG specifically tells you to stack the odds in the daemons favor on the very page he's listed.

And while i don't mean to make any claim as to the intentions of FFG's putting a Lord of Change at the exclusion of any other Greater Daemon, this is probably because he's a plotter and not a straight up fighter/damage dealer.

And Plotters, and those behind Plots, are the main enemies in Dark Heresy.

The evidence is in the combat and the power gaps between classes.

And you complain about godmoding. But you know what the cool thing is? Ascension gives you the ability to negate all of these things...through investigation and influence. These are both big parts of Ascension, and allow the PCs to level the playing field and potentially avoid walking into a trap against the Changer of Ways."

There's a difference between stacking the odds to begin with, and stacking the odds no matter what the PCs do, thus railroading them into a disadvantageous encounter. As I was careful to qualify earlier, if the Psyker is stupid about how he confronts the LoC, by all means, allow the latter to get the on him, but godmoding is completely repugnant.

Dowsing will pick out the LoC with ease. He also need not do it in line of sight or effect of the LoC.

Sure, assuming the PC has seen the LoC before (yeah, right) or knows its name (YEAH, RIGHT).

We're ARE talking about an Ascension Psyker who is versed in the Divination discipline; it's not unlikely at all, given that he knows of the LoC to begin with, and its general location. There's also the Far Sight/Soul Sight combo; scout ahead at no risk, watch the Greater Daemon light up like a christmas tree.

We're ARE talking about an Ascension Psyker who knows the Divination school; it's not unlikely at all, given that he knows of the LoC to begin with, and its general location.

And how does he get to know this kind of information, considering the LoC will likely stay in the warp, working his will through dreams and visions sent to his followers for as long as possible?

There's also the Far Sight/Soul Sight combo; scout ahead at no risk, watch the Greater Daemon light up like a christmas tree.

Apart from the question of whether Far Sight and Soul Sight can be chained together, I don't know whether peering into the soul of a Greater Daemon would be all that conducive to ones mental and spiritual health...

"And how does he get to know this kind of information, considering the LoC will likely stay in the warp, working his will through dreams and visions sent to his followers for as long as possible?"

Perhaps his not-inconsiderable Intelligence attribute and knowledge of related Forbidden Lore (gets him the name)? And we're assuming the LoC has materialized, has laid a trap in the form of these cultists and My Will Obeyed. If he has done this, Psyniscience to detect the exact location of the immaterium channeling, Far Sight/Soul Sight to scout the area. Whoops, looks like we've just found Marabas' inert body as he mind screws his cultists in preparation for your arrival. Now that we've seen him, we can use Dousing at will. Better yet, we might then use the Projection Telepathy power, use Domination on the LoC, win the opposed WP Test without trouble, and have him Holocaust himself and his followers to death. I love Divination (and Telepathy).

"Apart from the question of whether Far Sight and Soul Sight can be chained together, I don't know whether peering into the soul of a Greater Daemon would be all that conducive to ones mental and spiritual health..."

He's an Ascended Psyker who can crush an LoC's will more or less effortlessly; I really don't think that's an issue. It would probably incur a Warp Shock check which he passes without any trouble.

And they can. Far Sight provides a visual, and a visual is all Soul Sight needs.

I just dealt with Force Barrage simply with a single self written errata.

Force Barrage- Errata on overbleed, when calculating the number of extra force bolts created in a Force Barrage a Psyker is limited to a number of extra bolts equal to one half his Willpower bonus, excluding such Talents as Unnatural Willpower for said calculation.

So Force Barrage can do a number of bolts equal to their unmodified WP Bonus and then an additional half that. This does lower the damage output of this power significantly without ruining it. So the Psyker with an 80 WP can do a MAXIMUM of 12 bolts. Still retarded damage but not THAT retarded.

Alexis

*smiles*

Still allows you to one shot any enemy in the game. I like RT's ideas for rebalancing this power; scaling it with Psy Rating, not WP Bonus, which makes it _much_ more sensible:

#1: Base # of bolts = Psy Rating.

#2: Bonus damage per bolt = Psy Rating * 2

#3: Range = Psy Rating * 10 metres.

#4: Ballistic Skill Test to hit with each bolt, which means the Psyker stands an appreciable chance of missing as opposed to virtually none (and indeed none later in his career).

Perhaps his not-inconsiderable Intelligence attribute and knowledge of related Forbidden Lore (gets him the name)? And we're assuming the LoC has materialized, has laid a trap in the form of these cultists and My Will Obeyed. If he has done this, Psyniscience to detect the exact location of the immaterium channeling, Far Sight/Soul Sight to scout the area. Whoops, looks like we've just found Marabas' inert body as he mind screws his cultists in preparation for your arrival. Now that we've seen him, we can use Dousing at will. Better yet, we might then use the Projection Telepathy power, use Domination on the LoC, win the opposed WP Test without trouble, and have him Holocaust himself and his followers to death. I love Divination (and Telepathy).

Projection? Seriously? Even with the unspecified caveat of creatures of the Immaterium being able to easily attack the psyker's mind, probably a great deal easier than if it still was in his fleshy hull and not in their own home grounds? Say hello to the Force Barrage of the Lord and its swarm of little buddies. Further, you explicitly can't dominate a target to use psychic powers.

He's an Ascended Psyker who can crush an LoC's will more or less effortlessly; I really don't think that's an issue. It would probably incur a Warp Shock check which he passes without any trouble.

And they can. Far Sight provides a visual, and a visual is all Soul Sight needs.

And the "The character can use other divination powers through this link" which Projection specifies is noted where in the description of Far Sight?

Cailieg said:

This is a good fix albeit slightly messy. I think I'd prefer to use a number of bolts equal to the Psy rating used in the technique (Rogue Trader style). That way, a Psyker can make it very powerful when he pushes harder, but if he fetters he's doing significantly less damage at lower (or no) risk.

It looks like a lot of people are getting into arguments about how the Lord of Change would scheme and manipulate to win against the psyker. This is not what this is about - this is about a single class being able to trivialise combat with a few powers and unnatural willpower. It works against ANY enemy in the game, provided one gets into combat with it.

Well... put a cap on Force Barrage.

Or just don't care and accept that physical combat won't present much of an obstacle to that cell.

Lasers said:

I was worried this would make the power too weak, but then I remembered about overbleed. Will have to do some more calculations to check later.

I'd consider leaving the range alone though, since psychic powers are already short ranged enough imo.

Paradigm said:

Consider this yoinked with the additional information on this page at the top.

It was a fast and dirty fix. Because everyone in my group including both Sanctionites, saw that power as OP.

Alexis

*smiles*

"Projection? Seriously? Even with the unspecified caveat of creatures of the Immaterium being able to easily attack the psyker's mind, probably a great deal easier than if it still was in his fleshy hull and not in their own home grounds? Say hello to the Force Barrage of the Lord and its swarm of little buddies. Further, you explicitly can't dominate a target to use psychic powers."

Except that Mr. LoC is a little busy using My Will Obeyed, and isn't expecting your Projection to show up beside his inert body. Also, Force Barrage cannot harm an incorporeal projection. Third, you're right, as per the 3.0 Errata, I can't force him to use Psychic Powers, but you know what? The LoC can still order the cultists and daemons under his command to butcher each other, and easily kill those who do not comply with his physical attacks. Once that's done, he merely needs to remain stationary and inactive like a good little puppet until the psyker arrives to put him out of his misery (or he can go to the Psyker, or the Psyker can dispatch someone else to kill him, etc...).

"And the "The character can use other divination powers through this link" which Projection specifies is noted where in the description of Far Sight?"

Doesn't need to be there; by RAW it works because sight is all that is necessary and he has it.

"It looks like a lot of people are getting into arguments about how the Lord of Change would scheme and manipulate to win against the psyker. This is not what this is about - this is about a single class being able to trivialise combat with a few powers and unnatural willpower. It works against ANY enemy in the game, provided one gets into combat with it."

Also this. Bottomline, if the Psyker is stupid yes, the LoC can probably kill him but that goes without saying. Under roughly even circumstances he wins without effort, and he is able to do the same versus basically any other opposition so far presented.

"I was worried this would make the power too weak, but then I remembered about overbleed. Will have to do some more calculations to check later.

I'd consider leaving the range alone though, since psychic powers are already short ranged enough imo."

Well let's look at how it works out:

X bolts of 1d10+2*X, plus additional bolts from Overbleed. That's quite good, even as Ascended Powers go.

Psy 6 dishes 6 bolts of 1d10+12 Damage for an average of 105 damage, and 17.5 per bolt, not counting Overbleed.

Psy 10 dishes 10 bolts of 1d10+20 Damage for an average of 255 damage, and 25.5 per bolt, not counting Overbleed (which will average 14 with Discipline Specialization, Focus, Willpower Bonus 27, and Power Well 2 for another 357 damage).

Of course, the BS requirement diminishes this somewhat, probably decreasing the output by ~40-50% but that's a good thing, as it brings the power level closer to where a non-Ascended power should be (and in balance, it's still more than competitive with Ascended powers).

As for Range, 10 Metres * Psy Rating * 2 also works, although it should be noted that the short range of offensive Psyker Powers is one of their traditional weaknesses that FB spits on.

Actually I'd say that even this fix doesn't go nearly far enough. I'd limit the number of levels of Overbleed to a maximum of the Psy Rating used in addition (applicable to all Powers, not just FB).

I guess I have been blessed by a very non munchkin group since no one has even hinted at this being their intended direction. My group saw the Psyker's broken mechanics and TRIED actively to fix it, instead of arguing that the RAW made them god of all and instantly I win, in fact both my Psyker players are thankfully huge rpers who are more likely to take things that "gimp" them but fit their pc than taking the most powerful "spell" they can. None of my players even wanted that I win button, they were too busy roleplaying to worry about how to build a one shot god.

However I am liking the fix that has been figured in this thread.

My initial fix was nothing but a hotfix, the combination in this thread truly fixes the power, while leaving it a very viable choice.

So compiling that which I will use I have.

The power is calculated primarily on Psy Rating used rather than on WP bonus.

Base Number of Bolts Equal to Psy Rating Used

Bonus Damage per bolt equal to Psy Rating Used * 2

Range equal to Psy Rating used *20 meters

Ballistic Test to hit with Each Bolt, Psyker may add his WP bonus to the roll. (Consider this his weapons special qualities, short range bonuses, red dot, and such)

Overbleed on Force Barrage and indeed on all powers cannot exceed a number of levels equal to the Psy Rating Used to calculate the power.

I likes....thanks guys.

Alexis

*smiles*