Can Vessery Attack, roll dice, another ship with Krennic on board acquire a target lock, then Vessery acquire a target lock and use it to re-roll?

3 minutes ago, redviperofdorne said:

Can Vessery Attack, roll dice, another ship with Krennic on board acquire a target lock, then Vessery acquire a target lock and use it to re-roll?

No, Optimized Prototype granting the ship with Krennic a TL doesn’t occur till after the entire attack had passed, well past Vessery’s timing to get a TL.

It's worth noting that not even TIE/D gets you around this. Because Optimized Prototype only triggers after a Primary weapon attack, you wouldn't be able to attack with a cannon, grant a TL to Krennic, then gain one for your primary attack. I was about to get this wrong, but checked the the text of the condition first. The timings would work, but OpPro doesn't work with cannon attacks, so no go.

Plus, OP is at its best by far on things without rerolls.

Dessert combos well with it, but he com is with it on another equal or higher ps ship, so that he can benefit from the locks from it shooting.

6 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Plus, OP is at its best by far on things without rerolls.

Dessert combos well with it, but he com is with it on another equal or higher ps ship, so that he can benefit from the locks from it shooting.

I'd say rather, not that it's best without rerolls, but best without double-mods. If a ship had rerolls but no focus, or focus but no rerolls, there's statistically no difference. A blank you can't reroll and an eye you can't convert are the same. However, it's far more likely in practice that a ship has a focus token but no rerolls than rerolls but no focus.

I'll also agree that Vessery is a really cool 3rd ship to a Krennic list. OP fires, Krennic gets TL, then Vessery gets TL.

45 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I'd say rather, not that it's best without rerolls, but best without double-mods. If a ship had rerolls but no focus, or focus but no rerolls, there's statistically no difference. A blank you can't reroll and an eye you can't convert are the same. However, it's far more likely in practice that a ship has a focus token but no rerolls than rerolls but no focus.

I'll also agree that Vessery is a really cool 3rd ship to a Krennic list. OP fires, Krennic gets TL, then Vessery gets TL.

Everything can get focus mods though.

26 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Everything can get focus mods though.

That's what I meant by it's more likely that a ship has a focus but no rerolls than rerolls but no focus.

Mostly, my whole point is that, statistically, there is no difference to red dice between a focus and a TL, and what OptProt benefits isn't so much a ship without focus or without rerolls, as a ship with fewer sources of dice modification.

Whisper, for example, is a common Krennic and OptProt carrier, and is unlikely to want to use a focus on offense. You'll have easy rerolls from Krennic, and in a lot of cases would rather save a focus for defense or take an evade action to cover her high variance. Inquisitor is highly willing to spend a TL, but a lot of the time probably wants to boost or barrel roll for position, or save focus for defense. OptProt isn't worse on them because they're using their TLs for dice mods rather than focus tokens if they're only using single-modification, but the fact that they can get double-mods without too much effort. It's not too uncommon for either of them to be out-of-arc, and thus free to spend Focus and TL, and those are the cases where OptProt is a little redundant.

OptProt is like Major Vermiel. It's kind of a pet-peeve of mine when folks say "Vermiel really needs focus since he can deal with blanks." His ability can convert a blank or focus equally, so the type of modification (focus or reroll) doesn't matter, only the magnitude. The Predator/Expertise difference is only the normal one: an all -eyes turn rather than a single -die reroll (at the cost of stress-interference and an extra point). There's nothing special about either Vermiel's ability or OptProt where one type of modification is inherently better than another.

Contrast Rear Admiral Chiraneau. Since his ability provides specifically focus-type modification, he benefits from rerolls more than additional focus-type modification. Here, Expertise is Bad but Predator is good, because there's a difference between focus and reroll modification when it comes to RAC's pilot ability. There's no difference on OptProt.

And I've just spent how long on this, which I'm sure you know, and would surely have been unnecessary if I'd just worded my original reply better, but sunk posts are sunk, and I'm going down with the ship.

Mostly I could have phrased mine better. Rerolls *as well as focus* is what I actually meant.

OP works best on people who can only get focus and not easily get rerolls - roll blank hit eye, spend the blank. Roll hit hit eye, spend the eye.

It can work on double modders as well, but it's not as useful.

It's by FAR at its best, AFAICT, on Vader.

57 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

[Optimised Prototype is] by FAR at  its best, AFAICT, on Vader  . 

Mainly because, while he CAN get double attack mods, Vader rarely wants to spend them. His focus tokens are best saved for defense, and his target lock is better used, 99% of the time, on adding a crit rather than rerolling dice (unless he's firing a Missile).

35 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Mainly because, while he CAN get double attack mods, Vader rarely wants to spend them. His focus tokens are best saved for defense, and his target lock is better used, 99% of the time, on adding a crit rather than rerolling dice (unless he's firing a Missile).

Functionally, he can't get double mods.

The reason it's *really* good though, is that if you get caught out, the choice between focus/evade and focus/lock is a lot easier when your two dice can still clip a shield, guaranteed, AND get an ally a lock, especially on the initial approach.

I've used it on Vader (did well, 2nd in SC) and Whisper (did well, 1st in SC). It's obviously a very strong upgrade.

I personally think it's strongest on Whisper for two reasons: (1) It's self-contained. It doesn't lose power if half of the combo is destroyed (or just out of range). (2) It frees up that System slot. Holy cow is Whisper annoying with AdvS or SensorJ.

1 minute ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I've used it on Vader (did well, 2nd in SC) and Whisper (did well, 1st in SC). It's obviously a very strong upgrade.

I personally think it's strongest on Whisper for two reasons: (1) It's self-contained. It doesn't lose power if half of the combo is destroyed (or just out of range). (2) It frees up that System slot. Holy cow is Whisper annoying with AdvS or SensorJ.

It's not quite as powerful as Buzzsaw Whisper (Gunner + FCS), since you can't try the attack twice in a round... but what you lose in direct power you gain in autonomy (you can fly separate) and defense. Having that self-contained Krennik/Opt.Proto combo is quite useful, and as you said, either Advanced Sensors or Sensor Jammer is crazy helpful on Whisper.