7 minutes ago, Brekekekiwi said:

But Phoenix weren't going to get Keeper of Water for this choice anyway, because they already have it? And this doesn't affect what choice they make at Winter Court either?

Am I misunderstanding something?

the system is a little convoluted. The way it worked was every player at a kotei event was able to vote for their clans preferred secondary role. These votes were then tabulated with the clan whose current role was least popular getting their choice of second role first and the clan with the most popular current role chose last. The Dragon player base voted for keeper of water (the phoenix clans current role) in order to push them down the selection order and thereby deprive them of seeker of void. Or at least that is my understanding of the system.

12 minutes ago, Brekekekiwi said:

But Phoenix weren't going to get Keeper of Water for this choice anyway, because they already have it? And this doesn't affect what choice they make at Winter Court either?

Am I misunderstanding something?

The point was to force their choice to be later so that the odds of the Seeker Void role that they likely want so they can run Kuri Mori and Pilgrimage/Shameful off the table.

Sounds more like the sort of shenanigans I would expect from the Scorpion, not the Dragon.

3 hours ago, Mirumoto Ryan said:

the system is a little convoluted. The way it worked was every player at a kotei event was able to vote for their clans preferred secondary role. These votes were then tabulated with the clan whose current role was least popular getting their choice of second role first and the clan with the most popular current role chose last. The Dragon player base voted for keeper of water (the phoenix clans current role) in order to push them down the selection order and thereby deprive them of seeker of void. Or at least that is my understanding of the system.

That is pretty much accurate. We went with a suboptimal role to prevent the Phoneix from getting what we perceived to be a role that could make them too powerful. Of course I was kind of on break from the game when this was happening and never got elemental points so I didn't actually do it.

7 minutes ago, deraforia said:

Sounds more like the sort of shenanigans I would expect from the Scorpion, not the Dragon.

Scorpion do not hold sole authority on intrigue. Especially in matters of Elemental Balance.

But it is this kind of stuff that adds to the immersion. like Bounties for story choices. A Dragon sub-faction had a goal and accomplished it. Phoenix isn't completely screwed from this, they just are denied a specific role.

30 minutes ago, Radix2309 said:

Scorpion do not hold sole authority on intrigue. Especially in matters of Elemental Balance.

Has there been any in-world explanation / reference to what the roles are / do? If not (and it may just be that I missed it) there is no “role-playing” going on here. It just seems like mean-spirited denial.

I know there have been Shadowlands players in the past who have been winning games that went to time and then the other player would refuse to concede the game, even though they were clearly losing, because the non-Shadowlands player refused to capitulate to the Shadowlands etc. etc. That’s not role-playing; it’s just bad sportsmanship.

I don’t know, I kind of feel like I’d rather they just do silly story prizes for everything. Sure, the lore might get stupid, but at least people would’t get denied to play the cards and decks they wanted to.

I still don't understand the system... if dragon chose keeper of water, this means they're getting their role first because it's least popular, right? So how does that deny phoenix seeker of void? Doesn't it depend on seeker of void role popularity?

1 hour ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

Has there been any in-world explanation / reference to what the roles are / do? If not (and it may just be that I missed it) there is no “role-playing” going on here. It just seems like mean-spirited denial.

According to FFG:

The Five Rings comprise the underpinnings of reality, but they also represent different philosophies of being. At different times, the samurai of the Great Clans embody different aspects of these Rings—the cunning of Air, the endurance of Earth, the ferocity of Fire, the adaptability of Water, or the introspection of Void—and aim to either protect or unravel the mysteries associated with them. With each turn of the seasons, the relative perspectives of the clans shift and evolve according to the counsel of their daimyō and the winds of fate. Those clans who build up their defenses, cement their alliances, and cleave to tradition serve as Keepers of their worldview. Meanwhile, those clans determined to forge ahead, launching gambits and searching for new possibilities, can be said to be Seekers.

While I know this is not how it works, as it is glory points that decide who gets Toshi Ranbo, but had it been that hatamotos got to vote using the clans glory points then it would have been fun if a coalition of clans banded together to make sure neither Crab nor Scorpion gets it.

Maybe the Dragon, as we can should be able to keep the peace without any ulterior motives.

But as said, that would have just been a fun things.

As for the Dragons choice in role; I don't see much of a point in it. Sure we have Seeker of Fire and making sure the Phoenix doesn't grow too strong is smart, but I would rather see the Dragon make ourself stronger rather than lock ourself into a bad role just to push someone else down. Such dishonorable action is for other clans.

2 hours ago, Zura said:

I still don't understand the system... if dragon chose keeper of water, this means they're getting their role first because it's least popular, right? So how does that deny phoenix seeker of void? Doesn't it depend on seeker of void role popularity?

The more votes your role gets the further back in line for selection you are. Since Dragon is the only Clan with Keeper of Water in their top three presumably most of Phoenix's votes came from them and since everyone wants Seeker of Void (hence why Scorpion is dead last) chance were good someone else would get it before Phoenix's turn came around.

13 minutes ago, MirumotoOrashu said:

Maybe the Dragon, as we can should be able to keep the peace without any ulterior motives.

Yes, because that worked so well during the War of the Rich Frog.

9 hours ago, psychie said:

For the record, not all dragons were on board with the plan to sabotage the phoenix, I was against it from the beginning, because I was afraid something like this might happen, and now it's happening and if we don't all vote for KoV at gen con, our monk deck is kinda screwed.

I have to admit I wasn't even aware of it until recently. Was this something mainly at US events?

..

12 minutes ago, shineyorkboy said:

Yes, because that worked so well during the War of the Rich Frog.

I've been looking over our records and cannot find any trustworty mention of a "War of the Rich Frog". All I found was a record for a date that is yet to pass. Though I must say the Dragon didn't seem to lose too much in that made up timeline

I seem to recall being pretty 'meh' overall with the whole Scorpion role sabotage thing too (wasn't that a dragon hatamoto that time, too?), so I guess it'd be self consistent for me to shrug and ignore this as well. However, I feel like there's at least one significant difference here, in that at Winter Court, the strongest performing clan gets first pick. With the elemental points, the clan with the least desirable role gets first pick. Sabotaging the best-performing clan feels completely different from sabotaging a clan with one of the weakest roles already. Thanks for nothing, I guess? It's a little disappointing that water role's a lot better now that a few decent water cards have been spoiled. We were stuck with it for a year, but you guys get eight months of bow and ready effects.

I always thought Phoenix was supposed to be the clan of "I know what's best for everyone," but I guess Dragon's trying to take that role too.

25 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

I always thought Phoenix was supposed to be the clan of "I know what's best for everyone," but I guess Dragon's trying to take that role too.

Actually that has always been our role. Hantei told Togashi to remain in the mountains and watch over the other clans. Many of my clan brothers and sisters have historically chafed at this role as it normally meant inaction for us and we were never really comfortable with the role of Rokugans policeman. But from my understanding that is kind of what Hantei and Togashi envisioned for us.

The Phoenix clans role was to oversee the orthodoxy and safety of magical and religious practice.

... I meant that in a sense of the classic flaw of the clan, not a specific intent.

23 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

I seem to recall being pretty 'meh' overall with the whole Scorpion role sabotage thing too (wasn't that a dragon hatamoto that time, too?), so I guess it'd be self consistent for me to shrug and ignore this as well. However, I feel like there's at least one significant difference here, in that at Winter Court, the strongest performing clan gets first pick. With the elemental points, the clan with the least desirable role gets first pick. Sabotaging the best-performing clan feels completely different from sabotaging a clan with one of the weakest roles already. Thanks for nothing, I guess? It's a little disappointing that water role's a lot better now that a few decent water cards have been spoiled. We were stuck with it for a year, but you guys get eight months of bow and ready effects.

I always thought Phoenix was supposed to be the clan of "I know what's best for everyone," but I guess Dragon's trying to take that role too.

The issue is that the decisions were being made as often as not in the absence of knowledge of how the meta and season would shake out. When the decision was being made by the clans at the start of the season no one had seen the cards that would be coming in the elemental cycle or that Scorpion and Crab were about to become the dominant force in the meta for the foreseeable future. At the time the assumption was the Toshi role will be a boost for Worlds and than expires so Phoneix (who were seen as on the rise due to the power of cards being seen in the first cycle and the fact that they were expected to be the only clan with a second choice of stronghold with the only known clan pack at that point) might be a greater threat on the competitive scene with Seeker of Void enabling them to run Shameful Display or Pilgrimage and still get Kuri Mori, a very strong province that can essentially shut down Lion and Unicorn from ever winning the Stronghold, and makes them much stronger against the Political Clans as they can shut off a lot of their tech with it as well.

They had this for last Winter Court and did alright with it considering the disadvantages they were on in Single Core where there stronghold was essentially a brick around their neck when facing Scorpion or anyone who was leveraging their Fire Rings. In an expanded meta with better character pool it was likely to only be worse.

So in light of that and knowing that Scorpion were already likely to be getting a lower pick based on the high number of clans looking for Seeker of Void would entail I can see the logic in the Dragon plan, especially since it also sabotaged themselves by forcing them into the less desirable for them Keeper of Water role. It just happens that due to the changes in the way roles will be handled the choice may now be stuck with them for a little longer than anticipated so may have greater effect for them than intended.

We will survive.

And then we will return: bigger, faster, stronger.

All this and much more in...

The Phoenix 2: Phoenixer.

Yeah like I said, I'm not too upset. Didn't care for Keeper of Water myself, but the world didn't end. And as we get more valuable role-locked cards per element, each choice seems exciting to me. If we end up with Keeper of Void instead of Seeker, that's still cool with me. Trying to manipulate other clans' role results, especially in a system already set up to be self-balancing like the Elemental Points one is, just seems... misguided, to me.

Double post

6 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

Yeah like I said, I'm not too upset. Didn't care for Keeper of Water myself, but the world didn't end. And as we get more valuable role-locked cards per element, each choice seems exciting to me. If we end up with Keeper of Void instead of Seeker, that's still cool with me. Trying to manipulate other clans' role results, especially in a system already set up to be self-balancing like the Elemental Points one is, just seems... misguided, to me.

Oh it is, and Dragon are likely going to be feeling it for a while if they are locked into Keeper of Water for their second role coming out of worlds as they can't take Seeker of Fire so will have to settle for another choice if they want the Seeker/Keeper choices open. Even worse since their is a very good chance they won't be picking first at Worlds (I predict a Scorpion Crab final like most of the Kotei season has been) so they may not have their top choice even then.

6 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Even worse since their is a very good chance they won't be picking first at Worlds (I predict a Scorpion Crab final like most of the Kotei season has been) so they may not have their top choice even then.

I wouldn't predict worlds just yet. I expect the restricted/banned list to grow before worlds and that might shake things up.

As for the Dragon/Phoenix role debacle, I respect the troll completed by the Dragon clan. But this is exploiting how unhealthy the role situation is for the game by making moves to force your others how to play their game competitively for prolonged periods of time.

42 minutes ago, C2K said:

I wouldn't predict worlds just yet. I expect the restricted/banned list to grow before worlds and that might shake things up.

As for the Dragon/Phoenix role debacle, I respect the troll completed by the Dragon clan. But this is exploiting how unhealthy the role situation is for the game by making moves to force your others how to play their game competitively for prolonged periods of time.

Except as originally intended it wasn't meant to be long term, it was supposed to be in effect at one tournament (Worlds) until there was a change to the plans for roles going forward. And as I've said this is biting the Dragon in the butt as much as it is the Phoenix as they are now trapping themselves into Keeper of Water for an extended period which is not a role they wanted to be playing. When they had Seeker of Fire as their primary it was fine to basically say we aren't switching up our current decks for the upcoming season because we are happy with what we have right now and it would only be in effect for the one tourney. The issue will be post Worlds they are now looking at Keeper of Water being an ongoing role and since they can't take Seeker of Fire again they will be left picking one of the other Seeker Roles if they want to keep Pathfinder's Blade limiting their Keeper choice to Water or foregoing Seeker Economy and the Blade entirely to get a Keeper role that plays better to their decks.

As to predictions unless there is a major shake up on the restricted list not seeing enough in this cycle to dethrone the current top decks:

Lion has a more viable stronghold but their personality pool is still pretty shallow and are too reliant on Events that the top clans can shutdown or play around.

Unicorn are coming but have the same issue as Lion.

Crane are definitely a contender but I think the their poor match ups keep them from getting out of the brackets so you end up with one challenger who still has to deal with poor match ups in the finals.

Phoenix have Scorpion acting as a predator in the preliminary rounds where their average Glory keeps them on the back foot, coupled with reliance on conflict cards and effects that are prone to cancellation so have the same problem as Crane in getting out of the preliminaries to make the cut.

5 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

Seeker of Void enabling them to run Shameful Display or Pilgrimage and still get Kuri Mori, a very strong province that can essentially shut down Lion and Unicorn from ever winning the Stronghold, and makes them much stronger against the Political Clans as they can shut off a lot of their tech with it as well.

This is what I find interesting about this "strategy"; I feel it's safe to say that the inclusion of Kuri Mori in Phoenix hurts 1-sided clans in that matchup more than balanced ones, and Dragon are easily one of the most balanced clans. Scorpion, on the other hand, are definitely stronger politically. If Phoenix did have Seeker of Void, we may have ended up seeing more Phoenix in the later rounds at the cost of some of the more specialised clans (like Scorpion, possibly). Now correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Dragon matchup vs Phoenix better than Scorpion? So isn't it likely that by choosing to prevent Phoenix from getting SoV we may end up seeing Scorpion in the later rounds just as much as before, which actually hurts Dragon in the end? Not to mention that KoW is a poor choice for them anyways. I have a feeling that this move will just end up hurting both clans. Trolls will be trolls, I suppose.

16 minutes ago, Casanunda said:

This is what I find interesting about this "strategy"; I feel it's safe to say that the inclusion of Kuri Mori in Phoenix hurts 1-sided clans in that matchup more than balanced ones, and Dragon are easily one of the most balanced clans. Scorpion, on the other hand, are definitely stronger politically. If Phoenix did have Seeker of Void, we may have ended up seeing more Phoenix in the later rounds at the cost of some of the more specialised clans (like Scorpion, possibly). Now correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Dragon matchup vs Phoenix better than Scorpion? So isn't it likely that by choosing to prevent Phoenix from getting SoV we may end up seeing Scorpion in the later rounds just as much as before, which actually hurts Dragon in the end? Not to mention that KoW is a poor choice for them anyways. I have a feeling that this move will just end up hurting both clans. Trolls will be trolls, I suppose.

Except that Scorpion is very infrequently bothering to go for Stronghold break (especially against Phoenix where their control does an excellent job of limiting their ability to get their engine running. The only real downside for Scorpion is when Tadaka hits the board as it limits so many of their conflict cards, but they have access to enough control and cards that they can usually play around him and if smart are saving Clouds just for him. I don't recall where it was posted but at one point some one posted up some info about results from the discord league and if I recall Scorpion had an absurdly high win rate against Phoenix.