On page 49 of Dawn of Rebellion , Quarrie appears with an Ability that tech-focused players would kill to have: Prototype Engineer 2. With this ability, Quarrie can add permanent hard points to vehicles (and presumably starships, but the game sometimes draws a line between the two) with a successful Mechanics test.
Is there a way for player characters to learn this ability? I checked the Shipwright spec, but it's not there.
No.
Reverse Engineering (pg 71 Fully Operational) allows +1 to a vehicle on a triumph on a Mechanics check when working on one (once only).
Custom Loadout allows +2 to the Modder's signature vehicle.
I think that's it for vehicles (other than when using shipcrafting rules).
'Hey GM, can I replace (insert talent here) with Prototype Engineer on my talent tree?'
2 hours ago, HappyDaze said:On page 49 of Dawn of Rebellion , Quarrie appears with an Ability that tech-focused players would kill to have: Prototype Engineer 2. With this ability, Quarrie can add permanent hard points to vehicles (and presumably starships, but the game sometimes draws a line between the two) with a successful Mechanics test.
Is there a way for player characters to learn this ability? I checked the Shipwright spec, but it's not there.
That sure seems like something I'd want to keep a handle on.
Many of the NPCs in Dawn of Rebellion have special abilities tailored specifically to that character that are unavailable to PCs.
Two examples that come immediately to mind is Kanan's Farsight (pretty much lets him ignore being blind without having to make Force power checks every round) and Vader having Force Choke (very streamlined version of Bind), as well as Vader also having an ability that lets him spend an advantage on combat checks (might just be lightsaber checks, away from my book) to add +20 to a critical injury result. Plus, the Force user NPCs are have what amount to 'condensed' Force powers that enable them to "skip over" certain upgrades that PCs would be required to purchase, though in this case it's done for simplicity's sake to make the GM's job a little bit easier.
It's not unlike the Aura of Command ability that many Adversary "leaders" have had since the EotE Beta, something that as of yet a PC cannot properly replicate, along with a plethora of other Adversary-only special abilities that PCs can't by RAW purchase. It's a tradition as old as RPGs itself, starting back to the olden days of D&D, and even WotC's 3rd edition (which generally bent over backwards to try and make PCs and NPCs use the same rules) indulged in it.
I added Quarrie as an NPC in my game. He is helping the PCs build a Corvette, and they will get the benefit of his ability that way.
Pretty sure if you give the Dawn of Rebellion episode of Order 66 podcast a listen, I talk about this ability specifically (I wrote the misc planets section where the Quarrie stat block appears, as well as the block itself). But the TL:DL version is:
If you want to make NPC special qualities into talents for your PCs, go for it. However, be very careful about what you allow, and how much XP/pre-requisites you stick in front of it. Some are really easy, and you might find something comparable in a tree to base those decisions on. Some can be game-breakingly powerful in the hands of a PC.
When we design special abilities like that, we aren't doing so with the idea that PCs will be able to have those abilities. We usually do it with the intent of having one NPC challenge an entire party in some way (when it comes to combat and social encounter SQs). We're also trying to make sure that an NPC stat block doesn't get long and complicated, so often we make these abilities rather potent so that NPCs can be streamlined, but still challenge PCs (or parties of them) that have a half a dozen or more talents in a similar area. We're also trying to be thematic.
So yeah, so long as you understand that these abilities haven't been designed, balanced, or playtested that way, and it's incumbent upon a GM house ruling them as PC talents to find that balance that works for their table? I say have at it, and do whatever makes your game more fun. In this case specifically, consider that Quarrie is basically the Darth Vader of ship designing.
But all that said, in this case, it's just a maximum of 1 hard point per rank in the talent, with a risk of adding permanent setback to mechanics checks in the future. I'd probably feel comfortable at my table having it replace any tier 3 or 4 talent in a tree a PC didn't want, or treating it like a tier 4 or 4+ talent if its just available to purchase with no prerequisites. If I used the latter, I'd want to put some kind of cap on how many ranks a PC can buy, probably somewhere between 2-4, just to limit the potential abuse.
But again, as in all things RPG, rule 1 is fun. Do whatever works at your table with your players! Glad the ability has sparked interest!
One way this discussion could have been avoided is if NPCs werent just PCs with an N in front.
What I mean is that if NPCs werent built like PCs, with all the same abilities, then you could make powers for them which are more powerful than even the most powerful talents without them being talents at all. If they were called 'Powers' (its morning, I cant come up with a better term right now), then they would be inherently different than the abilities PCs have and wouldnt have less of an impression that powers could be substituted for talents.
It would also make the GMs job a good deal more streamlined if making NPCs was more 'figure out what they can do then give them those powers' instead of 'create a character from scratch and figure out all the talent trees and force powers they have and write all that down for a guy who is going to go down in one round'
Its one of the few things 4e D&D did well, was make the game much easier for the GM
19 minutes ago, korjik said:One way this discussion could have been avoided is if NPCs werent just PCs with an N in front.
What I mean is that if NPCs werent built like PCs, with all the same abilities, then you could make powers for them which are more powerful than even the most powerful talents without them being talents at all. If they were called 'Powers' (its morning, I cant come up with a better term right now), then they would be inherently different than the abilities PCs have and wouldnt have less of an impression that powers could be substituted for talents.
It would also make the GMs job a good deal more streamlined if making NPCs was more 'figure out what they can do then give them those powers' instead of 'create a character from scratch and figure out all the talent trees and force powers they have and write all that down for a guy who is going to go down in one round'
Its one of the few things 4e D&D did well, was make the game much easier for the GM
You mean like calling these special abilities “Special Abilities” instead of Talents? ?
7 hours ago, korjik said:What I mean is that if NPCs werent built like PCs
People are still doing that? Oh, the horror!
On 7/26/2018 at 8:52 AM, korjik said:One way this discussion could have been avoided is if NPCs werent just PCs with an N in front.
What I mean is that if NPCs werent built like PCs, with all the same abilities, then you could make powers for them which are more powerful than even the most powerful talents without them being talents at all. If they were called 'Powers' (its morning, I cant come up with a better term right now), then they would be inherently different than the abilities PCs have and wouldnt have less of an impression that powers could be substituted for talents.
It would also make the GMs job a good deal more streamlined if making NPCs was more 'figure out what they can do then give them those powers' instead of 'create a character from scratch and figure out all the talent trees and force powers they have and write all that down for a guy who is going to go down in one round'
Its one of the few things 4e D&D did well, was make the game much easier for the GM
I might be misunderstanding you, but I'm pretty sure this is exactly what the line does? When I build an NPC, I don't worry about pre-requisite talents in a tree. NPCs don't have careers or specs or class skills. Their wounds and strain aren't determined by species stat blocks. Their attributes don't require spending XP or finding ranks of dedication....
If you read any core book, first two pages of the Adversaries chapter, it specifically describes how NPCs don't at all follow the same rules for building PCs.
On 7/27/2018 at 9:14 AM, KRKappel said:If you read any core book, first two pages of the Adversaries chapter, it specifically describes how NPCs don't at all follow the same rules for building PCs.
When I first started out playing the game many, many moons ago, I built my NPCs like a PC would - but mostly that was me trying to learn how X related with Y and so on. Nowendays, I just throw together whatever talents I want in whatever hodgepodge I want.
4 minutes ago, Desslok said:When I first started out playing the game many, many moons ago, I built my NPCs like a PC would - but mostly that was me trying to learn how X related with Y and so on. Nowendays, I just throw together whatever talents I want in whatever hodgepodge I want.
I know some gamers that might actually like this game if they could do that with PCs. Not everybody likes talent trees.
On 7/30/2018 at 1:35 PM, HappyDaze said:I know some gamers that might actually like this game if they could do that with PCs. Not everybody likes talent trees.
Easy fix. Use the Genesys talent rules. Let them choose the Talents they want!
On 7/29/2018 at 11:35 PM, HappyDaze said:I know some gamers that might actually like this game if they could do that with PCs. Not everybody likes talent trees.
And I know a slew of gamers that prefer the talent trees as a unified theme and generally loathe Genesys' whole "goodies grab bag" approach to talents, so it cuts both ways.