2 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

All these things will take a while to sort through, but I think the biggest message I'm getting is that the thematics are a lot better in 2.0: The Lambda is an amazing support ship with low maneuverability but a good capacity for actions. The Reaper is a cheap gunship and troop carrier that moves super fast, but has pretty abysmal action economy.

I wonder if the same thematics are expanded to rebel and scum ships? Surely. /s

It's not like FFG will make a basic civilian transport ship have higher attacks and defenses than a military patrol craft, right?

They definitely wouldn't have 2 random civilian transports have 4 dice attacks, because that would be crazy.

(and before some of you rebel fanboys comes with one of the many examples showing the ghost wreck face, I would like to show you the episode where Vader single handedly destroys a capital ship with fighter escort, while giving the Ghost a good chase, and that was still not enough to grant it an Evade function or a native 3 dice attack. WITNESS THINE HYPOCRISY!)

1 minute ago, Commander Kaine said:

I wonder if the same thematics are expanded to rebel and scum ships? Surely. /s

It's not like FFG will make a basic civilian transport ship have higher attacks and defenses than a military patrol craft, right?

They definitely wouldn't have 2 random civilian transports have 4 dice attacks, because that would be crazy.

(and before some of you rebel fanboys comes with one of the many examples showing the ghost wreck face, I would like to show you the episode where Vader single handedly destroys a capital ship with fighter escort, while giving the Ghost a good chase, and that was still not enough to grant it an Evade function or a native 3 dice attack. WITNESS THINE HYPOCRISY!)

Well actually, I feel like the U-Wing will be remarkably similar to the Reaper. Mostly a gunship with movement shenanigans, but the ability to work as a support ship in a pinch. Probably a little better than the reaper at support though since it has a better dial and a systems slot (but on the other hand, no Jam).

The Devs said that the only Reason they gave the YT-2400 and the VCX-100 (which are not civilian transports btw, but heavily modified versions of already-armed military freighters) 4-die primaries was because they didn't want their firepower to be dependent on crazy upgrade combos, but they wouldn't be worth their points with less firepower. It's so that hopefully we DON'T get stupid Maulzra stuff in 2e.

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Well actually, I feel like the U-Wing will be remarkably similar to the Reaper. Mostly a gunship with movement shenanigans, but the ability to work as a support ship in a pinch. Probably a little better than the reaper at support though since it has a better dial and a systems slot (but on the other hand, no Jam).

The Devs said that the only Reason they gave the YT-2400 and the VCX-100 (which are not civilian transports btw, but heavily modified versions of already-armed military freighters) 4-die primaries was because they didn't want their firepower to be dependent on crazy upgrade combos, but they wouldn't be worth their points with less firepower. It's so that hopefully we DON'T get stupid Maulzra stuff in 2e.

The Ghost and the Outrider aren't civilian transports. The VCX-100 and the YT-2400 are. They aren't military freighters. They are the SUV-s of space.

I'm also not talking about the U-wing, but those two. Also... did you just talk about Jam, as if it mattered? Nobody will ever use it, because it is absolute crap. Very difficult to use, for a very limited benefit.

And the Decimator is a full on war ship, DESIGNED to go against these "heavily modified" ships, as it was a craft primarily used to stop smugglers etc.

I know, theoretically, you could justify these things... pretty much anything. But the fact is, IF the Ghost and the Outrider get 4 dice attacks, there really is no reason not have evades for Vader. (balance, again, is not an issue, because you can just increase costs).

This is my problem. When designing these rebel ships, it seems they look for every out they can get, to give it more power, piled onto the benefits of being a rebel ship (more shields, access to rebel crew and gunners).

If you are going to argue that every YT2400 NEEDS a 4 dice attack, which isn't really a decision supported by the lore, and you only do it so to make the ship as a whole more playable, you should do that with every ship. Or at least, with every faction.

Jam'll matter, just unfortunately far more so on higher I ships

If you pack Vermeil with Vader crew and set up a range 1 of someone (not hard v Initiative =< 4 with your medium base + Ailerons) you're just going to **** on their soul

Plus Vader (crew) just sets up Vermeil without jam, and God help anyone you manage to block

3 hours ago, Rossetti1828 said:

I think red coordinate may have some use as a way to turn off Ailerons for the next turn, if you're planning ahead.

(And your squad doesn't lose out on total actions taken.)

Nice trick. I shall have to remember that one.

4 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

But 2.0 reaper is still going to be running around with Darth Vader (crew)

Indeed. Vader's ability in 2.0 is basically an action-free jam token. All right, you can cancel it by taking damage instead, but frankly if you want to blow your ship up before the shooting even starts, I'm fine with that.

17 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Vizier's post-aileron co-ordinate is amazing, especially with Ciena Rees

What's so good about Vizier's post-aileron co-ordinate? He still skips his normal action, so it looks like the benefits are:

• He can co-ordinate before doing a red move
• His post-aileron co-ordinate is (presumably) white?

These aren't bad, but it doesn't seem too amazing. The best part is probably having a white coordinate and two empty crew slots.

8 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Jam'll matter, just unfortunately far more so on higher I ships

If you pack Vermeil with Vader crew and set up a range 1 of someone (not hard v Initiative =< 4 with your medium base + Ailerons) you're just going to **** on their soul

Plus Vader (crew) just sets up Vermeil without jam, and God help anyone you manage to block

And then you fly past everyone and get shot to **** because the minimum speed on the Reaper is stupid.

1 minute ago, HolySorcerer said:

And then you fly past everyone and get shot to **** because the minimum speed on the Reaper is stupid.

Oh, you don't just bump with your ailerons move that has zero penalty whatsoever for it?

Also, this thread

Who is this "Didi the Reaper"? Did I miss something?

31 minutes ago, flooze said:

Who is this "Didi the Reaper"? Did I miss something?

DeeDee

Imperial Saboteur

IN 2 Reaper Pilot

2 charges

After you finish a maneuver, you may spend a charge to choose 1 enemy ship at Range 0-1. If you do, that ship must discard a [System] upgrade card.

4 hours ago, gadwag said:

These aren't bad, but it doesn't seem too amazing. The best part is probably having a white coordinate and two empty crew slots.

Agreed.

4 hours ago, gadwag said:

He still skips his normal action, so it looks like the benefits are:

• He can co-ordinate before doing a red move
• His post-aileron co-ordinate is (presumably) white? 

The former is the main benefit. Without a white turn, the Reaper is likely to segnor a lot - an aileron craft's red dial is one of its strongest points, so being able to still co-ordinate is awesome, especially if you're handing a token to another striker also pulling a red move.

Using Ciena Rees needs her plus a tactical officer (so no free crew slots) but it's an awesome ability. The reason it's special is that unlike a lambda, the reaper is fast and manoeuvrable enough to keep up with Soontir Fel & co; range 2 is fairly forgiving but it's still more of a choke chain than a palpatine shuttle was, especially when the point of Ciena is the insane increase in manoeuvrability she can offer a TIE interceptor (barrel roll right, 90' turn left, manoeuvre speed 2 turn left) and you've got a white speed 'negative 2' koiogran, which you can season with an autothruster boost to taste.

2 hours ago, flooze said:

Who is this "Didi the Reaper"? Did I miss something?

That was exactly my first thought!

*1 pretend internet point for you*

Before my time but from now on the Reaper will remind me of Ken Dodd.

14 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

 I would like to show you the episode where 

Ho , rebels, remember when Hera blown a gozanti with an excess of Bluetooth? Or when Sabine does a hole in a cruiser with a blaster pistol? Or when freaking Sabine does anything and is so badass because they don't know how to make cool female characters because they think giving all the power of the universe is not enough?

I don't like this show.

Aphra is soooo much cooler than Sabine anyway

Sorry I just cannot help myself

9 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

And then you fly past everyone and get shot to **** because the minimum speed on the Reaper is stupid.

#flybetter

The following turn would be a sloop (still get Vader and possibly Vermeil ability) or GTFO of dodge round

Just going to need to adopt different tactics is all. For example, my time against turrets and bombs in 1.0 has really made me appreciate the ability to break away from **** engagements rather than chase Miranda around obstacles like a dunce

The game doesn't always have to be a straight joust

slow roll the Reaper until the opportune moment.

Alieron+stop=stress. next round 1 straight, clear stress. rinse repeat until you want to punch it.

21 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

I wonder if the same thematics are expanded to rebel and scum ships? Surely. /s

It's not like FFG will make a basic civilian transport ship have higher attacks and defenses than a military patrol craft, right?

They definitely wouldn't have 2 random civilian transports have 4 dice attacks, because that would be crazy.

The Decimator isn't actually that well armed, though.

It packs two quad laser turrets and a pair of missile launchers, same as the Falcon. For some reason, FFG gave it torpedoes and bombs in 1e but whatever, technically that's extra firepower over what it should have.

Assuming it keeps those slots in 2e, then it has the exact same primary turret value and arcs as the Falcon and is overall better armed, as it should be.

Not sure where you're getting 'higher defences' from. Both the Decimator and the Ghost have a white reinforce action and 4 shield value, but the Deci has an extra 2 hull points. It is objectively harder to kill than the Ghost. The Outrider, meanwhile, has no reinforce at all and half the hull points. Two agility, a much better dial and barrel roll make it harder to hit, sure, but that's as it supposed to be.

Admittedly, I don't have an answer for why the Ghost has such high forward firepower.

I'm not crazy about the Outrider's change either. Personally, I prefer the 1e approach where the ridiculous firepower is supposed to represent a specific ship and comes with an actual drawback. I prefer more options to customise, and I liked that you could get range 1 cannon shots if you sacrificed an attack die by dropping down to Mangler. But I can see why FFG changed it - if 90% of people are going to build it a certain way anyway, why not just build it into the ship and balance around that?

20 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

The Ghost and the Outrider aren't civilian transports. The VCX-100 and the YT-2400 are.

I know this comment followed on from something originally talking about thematics, but I think this is the exact point where the thematics give way to gameplay. Yes, there's an argument that building a generic ship into a specific configuration through upgrades is a fun element of list building, but I think it's much, much better for game balance if you don't end up with massive disparities between naked and upgraded builds of certain ships just to satisfy thematics.

We saw this with the Outer Rim Smuggler in 1e. We saw it with YT-2400s that didn't take Outrider. Nobody is going to fly a significantly worse version of a ship no matter the points difference. Fitting ships into more specific roles is good for variety, it means if you want to do a certain job you take the ship that does that, not upgrade the crap out of a fortuitously optimised baseline ship into something to fill that gap.

Short version: I don't think FFG should put too much effort into distinguishing unique named versions of ships from their generic. The 2e Firespray titles are the perfect amount of difference without going overboard, IMO. 1e Punishing One and Outrider were just too much.

I also don't see that it's necessarily bias that Rebels have the only ships with 4 attack dice now, though. That's such an incomplete view of how this game's balance works. The Ghost and Outrider, in theory at least, all have an array of attributes and limitations that should balance that. And yes, cost is absolutely one of those factors. The Rebels having an absolutely super duper ship that costs so much you can barely field anything with it is not bias, it's appropriate to the setting and story. That they have a few different flavours of that super duper ship is also fine.

Currently, the Imperials have access to the only Force user with a rating of 3. Different factions having different ceilings for different attributes is not bias.

on the subject of the yt-2400's 4-die primary, just look at the size of those frakkin' guns

meanwhile...

I really wanna post a picture of a giant NERF gun and a 22 caliber holdout pistol right now.

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

I really wanna post a picture of a giant NERF gun and a 22 caliber holdout pistol right now.

I don't think the Outrider was lobbing space styrofoam at people

Then again, that's probably all you'd need to kill TIE fighters

19 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I don't think the Outrider was lobbing space styrofoam at people

Then again, that's probably all you'd need to kill TIE fighters

I think you may have missed the point.

Size matters not.

7 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I think you may have missed the point.

Size matters not.

The empire begs to differ

Re: the space station gun

Size matters not in a starwars plot...LOL!!!

The main philosophy in starwars is "It didnt work? Do it again, only BIGGER!"

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

The empire begs to differ

Re: the space station gun

Here's the thing: with the nerf to turrets in general, I fully expect the average turreted ship to get a bit cheaper. This is good news to the (nerfed) Falcon and (slightly buffed) Decimator. However, the opposite seems to be the case for the Ghost and the Outrider. We already know that Dash will always take up more than half a list by himself, and the Ghost likely will as well (especially if equipped with a Phantom).

My understanding is that the developers had to look at these ships and decide whether they wanted to make them cheaper or more powerful. Cheaper is kind of appealing, especially for the Falcon and the Decimator since we see the Falcon fly alongside other ships all the time and the Decimator is the only Primary Turret for the Empire and one of only 3 crew carriers (I'm betting the Phantom and striker will be gunner). But for the Ghost and the Outrider, we always see these things flying solo and taking out squads with no outside help. Giving them room for a minor wingman or two makes sense, but they're meant to be solo powerhouses. If you can make the argument fluff-wise (which you definitely can in both cases) it leads to more thematic gameplay and better design of the ships all-around.

And I say this as someone who was hoping 4-primaries would leave the game for good in 2e. I was satisfied after seeing the price tag.