This is jump off from discussions started in the Dispel Rule topic. It's not necessarily something to be created, but more a discussion of the possibilities... the upside and downside. Here's what's on my mind....

Addon Special Abilities based on standard ones seen on character cards might be introduction as cards themselves in two (or three) sets. They could be purchased for a character though the cost would not be primarily in Gold. There might be places (for some) where they would have to be acquired, preferably standard locations and/or personas on the board. (Place and Stranger cards might also be options, but would make things a bit more complicated).

The cost would have to be gaged against advantage gain, frequency of use, and sometimes where used. For example, being safe in the Crags (in two flavors - automatic or by choice) is only good on one space and doesn't affect the land, general play, or other characters. Obviously a low cost ability. Always having 1 Spell, anywhere, any time, allowing you to potentially affect yourself, other adventurers, the Land, game play mechanics, etc., would be a lot more costly; it implies that the character has also does heavy training to become a mage or theurge like some standard characters.

Cost would be paid in different ways, sometimes in combination payment types, depending on the individual ability. Single or combined forms of payment could include (by suggested order of preference).

• Trophies (general, Craft, Strength, or specific type of Enemy)
• Spells
• Fate / Life
• Missed turn(s)
• Gold
• Objects (usually in place of Gold a 1G each), general or specific
• Magic Objects (bottom of the list because few people would ever give them up), general or specific
• Followers (I'm personally against this form of payment, using Followers as a commodity in yet another way)
• Alignment Change

For example, gaining "You always have 1 Spell" might be paid for in Craft Trophies of some specific number with the additional cost of not gaining Craft for them. It might also have other costs, maybe 1G paid as well, and then have to be acquired somewhere specific (the Enchantress comes to mind, since she is so poorly used in the game). Let's face it, this would be one of the most sought after addons, so shouldn't be to easy or cheap to get.

Types of abilities might be split up into two or three groups of cards: ones that would be based in Strength trophy cost, another in Craft trophies, and third in combination of either... with individual cards in each listing any other requirements or additional costs. Likely the combo Strength/Craft ones would be the cheapest and most general, while those that affect Spells and Magic and Psychic Combat would be in the Craft set, and those affecting Battle, maybe Evasion, etc. being in the Strength set.

I'll leave it there for now and see what people have to say. The biggest issue of course is how to gauge cost. For examples, I suggest we stick to the basic abilities found in the characters from the base game and leave off those from the beefed up expasion characters (or new abilities not yet seen in commercial characters). That might help find a semi-stable foundation for some the wilder abilities we've seen.

Neat idea JC, but as you said, very hard to balance.

My friends and I play a format sometimes which allows creating characters with extra special abilities. We call it "Synergy Talisman".

What you do is draw 4 character cards by any method. You choose one to play with, as normal, but then you choose a second "synergy" character to go with it. The synergy character must have at least 3 abilities that are different from your main character's abilities.

What happens is you begin the game with your main character's stats and abilities and ONE of the synergy character's abilities. During the game, you can 7 worth of strength or craft trophies to gain another of your synergy character's abilities instead of leveling up.

Imagine the Troll with the Prophetess abilities. Or the Assassin with the Minstrel abilities. The characters end up crazy powerful, and the games can be fun.

The key is that if your character dies, both your main and your synergy character die, and you're left with two character cards to create a new main/synergy combo. quite a fun format.

As to your idea of new ability cards, I think it would probably be too much of a headache to balance them properly. Try the synergy format if you don't believe me.

Neat idea. Sounds a bit like the old "henchmen" option. You have a main character and another character card that is the henchman. The hench(wo)man adds to you just like a follower but with all of its attribute... plus the Hench ....

• never gains Craft, Strength, Lives.
• has no starting gold and cannot hold gold.
• never heal, but can gain Lives if the character choose not to gain such itself from a card.
• can be equipped with upto four Objects.
• can never have followers.
• can be killed by losing all of its lives
• can use its Special Abilities only to the benefit of the character it serves.

It made for some interesting faster games, because everyone entered the game with their character supported by a fistful of extra boosts. Overall, it made characters overpowering vs the Adventure deck, but it was a fun variation once in a while.

As special abilities... to start something off... and sticking some of the most basic. Not all Special Abilities would need to be coverted to addons; some might be best left out.

Immunity is kind of what happens when a character doesn't have to face a roll on one unique space. Examples are the Forest, Crags and Chasm. This ability, regardless of potential to gain a Craft or Strength on some rolls, might be in the middle classification between Craft and Strength. So perhaps a character might be able to take one immunity by landing on the space in question and discarding 7 trophy points of any kind... or maybe 5. You land on the space, discard the trophies and declare for the ability related to that space. For the sake of simplicity, all Immunities would be choice based rather than automatic/required no-roll. (Titles are just off the cuff and chosen to sort of hint at the ability.)

NOTE: Location if listed would be were any expenditure is discard in order to gain the ability.

Cragwise
Cost: 5 Trophy points
Location: Crags
You may choose not to roll a die when in the Crags.

Forestwise
Cost: 5 Trophy points
Location: Forest
You may choose not to roll a die when in the Forest.

Chasmwise
Cost: 6 Trophy points
Location: Forest
You may choose not to roll a die when in the Chasm.

Woodswise
Cost: 7 Trophy points
Location: any Woods space
You may evade attack by any Enemy or other Character when in the Woods.
(And so on for Plains and Hills, and possibly other basic multiple space types... but not Runes.

Escapism
Cost: 21 Trophy points
Location: Ruins(?)
You may evade attack by any Enemy or other Character while on a space for drawing Adventure cards.

And so on...

Neat idea. Sounds a bit like the old "henchmen" option. You have a main character and another character card that is the henchman. The hench(wo)man adds to you just like a follower but with all of its attribute... plus the Hench ....

• never gains Craft, Strength, Lives.
• has no starting gold and cannot hold gold.
• can be healed.
• can be equipped with upto four Objects.
• can never have followers.
• can be killed by losing all of its lives
• can use its Special Abilities only to the benefit of the character it serves.

It made for some interesting faster games, because everyone entered the game with their character supported by a fistful of extra boosts. Overall, it made characters overpowering vs the Adventure deck, but it was a fun variation once in a while.

As special abilities... to start something off... and sticking some of the most basic. Not all Special Abilities would need to be coverted to addons; some might be best left out.

Immunity is kind of what happens when a character doesn't have to face a roll on one unique space. Examples are the Forest, Crags and Chasm. This ability, regardless of potential to gain a Craft or Strength on some rolls, might be in the middle classification between Craft and Strength. So perhaps a character might be able to take one immunity by landing on the space in question and discarding 7 trophy points of any kind... or maybe 5. You land on the space, discard the trophies and declare for the ability related to that space. For the sake of simplicity, all Immunities would be choice based rather than automatic/required no-roll. (Titles are just off the cuff and chosen to sort of hint at the ability.)

NOTE: Location if listed would be were any expenditure is discard in order to gain the ability.

Cragwise
Cost: 5 Trophy points
Location: Crags
You may choose not to roll a die when in the Crags.

Forestwise
Cost: 5 Trophy points
Location: Forest
You may choose not to roll a die when in the Forest.

Chasmwise
Cost: 6 Trophy points
Location: Forest
You may choose not to roll a die when in the Chasm.

Woodswise
Cost: 7 Trophy points
Location: any Woods space
You may evade attack by any Enemy or other Character when in the Woods.
(And so on for Plains and Hills, and possibly other basic multiple space types... but not Runes.

Evasion
Cost: 21 Trophy points
Location: Ruins(?)
You may evade attack by any Enemy or other Character while on a space for drawing Adventure cards.

And so on...

Hi JC,

After reading what you just wrote, I couldn't resist to ad a sugestion that lean to yours

POWER ABILITIES

Power of Wisdom: Ad 2 to your starting ctraft value.
To earn this ability, you need the following:
• Craft: 7+ (followers and objeckts not included).
• 12+ craft trophies to exchange for this ability.
• Location: Forrest

Power of Might: Ad 2 to your starting strenght value.
To earn this ability, you need the following:
• Strenght: 7+ (followers and objeckts not included).
• 12+ strenght trophies to exchange for this ability.
• Location: Crags

Power of Magic: You may have 5 spells.
To earn this ability, you need the following:
• Craft: 8+ (followers and objeckts not included).
• 12+ craft trophies to exchange for this ability.
• Location: Temple

Power of Life: Ad 2 to your starting life value
To earn this ability, you need the following:
• Pay 1 fate.
• 7+ strenght trophies to exchange for this ability.
• 7+ craft trophies to exchange for this ability.
• Location: Village visiting the healer.

Power of Belief: Ad 2 to your starting fate value.
To earn this ability, you need the following:
• Pay 1 fate.
• 7+ strenght trophies to exchange for this ability.
• 7+ craft trophies to exchange for this ability.
• Location: Temple

Power of Experience: You need 2 less trophies point to exchange for a reward.
To earn this ability, you need the following:
• Craft: 6 (followers and objeckts not included).
• Pay 7 gold.
• Location: City visiting the Entchantres.

Youch! Some potent abilities... but costly enough. Those are certainly worth including, but we might need to look at some that are more basic, for instance, how much should it cost (and potentially where) to acquire something like "You always have 1 Spell"... or "You may roll two dice in Battle and choose 1 to use." These will be the ones people likely seek out compared to other characters who start with such.

The other thing I'm wondering is that with cards as a deck, how should they be used? Do people just learn what's in there and remember where and how they have to acquire them? Is there a trigger for drawing on randomly, and then deciding if you wish to keep the card to try to gain the ability? And if so, how should it be handle in actual play for showing when you have earned it?

For the last I suppose the card is kept face down until it is earned and then it is revealed. But getting the card in the first place is the trick... hmmm. Or is there a general list of some kind showing what abilities are possible and then you just go earn them and then pull the appropriate card? Also, should some abilities have multiple card and others less so?

Keep the notions coming if and when you feel like it. I'm still uncertain if this is a workable idea, but its at least interesting to toss about. The cards might also be an interesting way to play an off the cuff game of "build your own adventurer for the night" with a some rules for how to do so.

OH AND SORRY ABOUT THE EARLIER DOUBLE POST. Do not really know how I manage to do that.

OK. This will be a long post. Sorry in advance

I went through 4th rev. ed. Character cards and gathered some abilities I would like to see. I'm more of a martial type so I left out many "magical" abilities. Some of them felt too powerfull or didn't felt right without an orginal character. Some of which I included are obviously overpowered as well but I just liked them so there

I tried long and hard to think of the right names for those abilities but sadly I'm not very good at it even in my own language (which is not english). Sugestions for better names are encouraged and appreciated. I include short flavor text for some of them although I'm not sure if it will actually fit on the cards.

MOVEMENT RELATED

Pathfinder
There's no need to rush. You will find your way and arrive before everyone else.

You may choose to move one space per turn instead of rolling a die.

[This is my own idea. How frustrating it is to miss a given space a dozen times,eh?]

Teleportation
It's a ***** feeling. You make a step and you are in a dozen places at once. Choose wisely.

Whenever you roll a 6 for your move, you may teleport to any other space in the same Region instead of moving normally.

[straight from Leprechaun card. Useful? Yes. Overpowered? Yes. Need some balancing.]

Guide
You know this parts like a back of your hand. The best path is... this way.

You may roll two dice for your movement and choose one of the results to use for your move.

[From Amazon card.]

Wanderer
You go where the road takes you. Each road is equal. Each road leads somewhere.

When you roll the die for your move, you may ignore the result of your first die roll and roll again. You must accept the result of this second die roll.

[From Sage card. Description is a little long. Could be shortened I guess.]

SPACE RELATED

Devout
You know that nothing happens by chance. There is some higher power watching over you.

After rolling the die when praying, you may add up to 2 to the score.

[From the Knight card. Monk and Priest have similar ability but it allows them to add only one.]

Crafty
You know which way the wind blows. You weren't born yesterday. You see a chance and seize it.

After rolling the die when you visit the Tavern, you may add 1 to the score.

[From Swashbuckler card. It would be even more useful against Card Sharp overlay card. I was considering title "Street Smart" but it sounds too modern. Any thoughts?]

ENCOUNTER RELATED

Dragonlord
The dragonlord is not someone who can command a dragon. It's someone the dragon will speak with.

Dragons will not attack you, although you may choose to attack them.

[based on Minstrel card. Shameless copy from Earthsea cycle by Ursula Le Guin.]

Beastmaster
The courage of an eagle. The strength of a black tiger. The power of god.

Animals will not attack you, although you may choose to attack them.

[sorry. I couldn't resist. Who else remembers this old movie?]

Overlord
Your power is unquestionable. No one dares to challenge you. You don't see foes. You see minions.

Monsters will not attack you, although you may choose to attack them.

[Ogre Chieftain card. I thought about the title "Tyrant".]

Oops! It's so late that it's early already. I have to get some sleep.

To be continued...

All good, and based in standard abilities that people would like to get their hands on. The tricky part is coming up with a cost and way to acquire them. And I'm not saying the first ones I posted have the right cost/way. Some may be too high for the little abilities such as not having to roll on a particular space. Still not sure about that part... or even how these cards should/would come into play.

As to titles, well, that's just spice and can be played with in all sorts of ways.

I havn't been following this discussion too closely, it seems to be in a few different locations, but really like the various mechanics in place, how these abilities count towards spell limits, but arn't spells. I got to thinking about how cool it would be to get some existing character abilities and then finding Felis' post about just that.

Agreed, it will be difficult to 'price' them, but I would find this a lot of fun to use in the game. How would you go about acquiring one? If someone was to stop, go to a location, and then rifle through each card, hmm'ing and haw'ing over what would be the best ability, the game would grind to a halt.

What about something a bit more random? Say visiting the Black Knight and then drawing a random card from the 'Ability' deck. The card has the ability and also the cost, much like the Warlock's Quests. If you can pay the cost immediatly then you get the ability, if not then you have to go and accomplish that first. Having it on a square such as the Black Knight makes it harder for a few reasons, first just being in the Middle Region, and then you would still have to pay him a life or gold just to get the ability card, not every player will want to take that risk.

Skills such as the Warrior's 2 weapons, Sorceress' Follower Beguilment, Merchant's trading... all of these would be a lot of fun to acquire mid-way through the game. Whatever the cost, it should be a bit steep and relevant to the ability. Maybe with the Warrior's 2 weapons, you must discard 1 gold and 1 magic weapon, for buguilment you have to discard a Follower, or give a Follower to another player, and for the Merchant discard 5 gold, or give to another player.

I don't think it should be like the Warlock's Quests where you can only have one at a time and must complete it if you can. You can collect as many unfinished abilities as you want or can and finish them if possible, and only count towards your total spells if you have completed them.

Should these be considered character abilities? What if you got the Thief's ability, would it play the same way? And would objects and other cards that perclude character's abilities be in effect? Probably. However I don't think that spells or other cards that wipe out a players spells would affect these ability cards.

Threw out a mess of ideas there, curious to see where this project goes!

inkblob said:

Actually they are separate topics now. The one for the Spells is for the Spell deck. The ones in here are being toyed with as something separate... additional abilities like those on a character card that might be somehow acquired another way.

inkblob said:

Definitely agreed!!! And that's part of the major problem... how are the cards accessed for "purchase" so to speak. There might actually be multiple ways, if we can think of some... just like the Space Expanders have/had multiple ways to be put into play. Of course for those all the methods occurred before the game began.

inkblob said:

That's a good possibility - a specific space where the card (not its Special Ability) is acquired. But I'm not sure all of them should be drawn in the same place. Maybe there's a game condition or something that triggers the option to draw from an abilities deck(s). Then you see what it is, where to go to get it, and you keep it face down until you actually acquire the ability by the card's instructions.

Personally, there aren't enough character based surprises in the game except for Spells... too much God's Eye view by players for what their characters couldn't possibly know or see about others. Keeping an ability card hidden until it is gained could put some spice back into the characters themselves. What, the Troll has two ability cards to fulfil? What could they possibly be? You don't get to find out until he's got them activated... What, a Troll that always has 1 Spell?!?!?

Still, modern players aren't into too much effort for anything that isn't directly related to (1) winning and/or (2) pounding on each other. So that needs to be considered as well. They like their freebies. Aside from figuring out one or more triggers for drawing an ability card (no movement dice please) ... maybe another option besides random draw is to be able to pick one? Once the players get familiar with the cards, they'll have a rough idea what it takes to acure a particular ability. If the character is is sitting on some trophies, has some other stuff it knows are needed for particular ability, and it knows how to get to a particular space ... maybe there is some logic in letting them choose a card. Certainly it could be one option for how the cards could be played.

Perhaps one trigger could be each time a character can return to and land on its Starting Space? Just a notion. And the should be other triggers as well.

inkblob said:

Agreed again... they should be cards that are picked up along the way... with the option to discard them if it's really something someone wouldn't ever bother acquiring. Then have a place and cost for acquisition. The best example is Forestwise; has to acquired at the Forest, and maybe you still have to roll and if Safe, you can pay the cost to add the ability not to roll in the Forest.

Overall, if you got one of these, it is treated like any Special Ability on your character's card. The Spell ones in the other topic are separate matter. They are more like special powers... semi-permanent Spells. Some of them even for being small effects could be very potent over repetitions. I have to lean with Mr. Brogger on that one. He's the one who suggested the spell cost to use them, and Jon suggested that they remain vulnerable to other normal Spells taking them away.

Just keep in mind there are two separate discussions, even though they seem related. The Spell topic cards are accessed through the Spell deck so are still affected by (almost) all considerations for Spells. The ones in this topic are separate and would be a new type of card(s).

So I'm basically on topic here?

If these abilities were spread out over the whole board, I think there would be some fatigue in keeping track of everything unless it had the space expander card to go with the ability, that's been mentioned I'm sure? That's a lot more printing out which is a hesitation as opposed to one deck/one location. If it was awesome then it wouldn't matter though I havn't used any of the space expander cards yet, but if they were tied into this somehow then that might get pretty interesting...

It would be interesting if there was a way for the ability to be stripped away, such as with the Warhorse or Fiend Slayer, when you loose a battle they depart. Have those conditions on the card as well, say with the Merchant's trading ability, if you loose any gold then you loose the ability. With all of them, let the loss conditions reflect the ability, similar to how it's gained in the first place.

...continued.

ENCOUNTER RELATED

Medium
You see the the world behind the veil. You know the way of spirits and how to tread lightly among them.

Spirits will not attack you, although you may choose to attack them.

[From Necromancer card.]

Seer
Nothing ever surprises you. Bandits? Earthquake? End of the World? You've seen that coming for weeks.

Whenever an Event is drawn, you may use your power of foretelling and choose to be unaffected by the Event, although all other characters are affected as normal.

[From Gypsy card. Kinda powerfull isn't it? Must be well balanced.]

Regal Aura
There is something about you. An air of importance. Many will choose to avoid you out of respect... or fear.

Whenever you encounter a Stranger you may choose to be unaffected by him.

[From Monarch card - Polish "Cave" expansion.]

Black Heart
There is no place for a sentiment in your heart. Dark Powers which you serve would be proud... if they care.

You are always evil; ignore any effect that changes your alignment.

[From Dark Cultist card. Some people might enjoy that way of life.]

Pure Soul
Some might call you goody-two-shoes. Let them be. You know the right from wrong.

You are always good; ignore any effect that changes your alignment.

[From Knight card. The other side of the coin.]

Middle Path
You don't take sides. It's better to be outsider than end up in the losing team.

You are always neutral; ignore any effect that changes your alignment.

[The edge of a coin if you will. My addition to former two.]

Clairvoyant
You can see far more than a next person. It saved your neck countless times.

Whenever you have to draw Adventure cards, you may discard one card of your choice that you do not wish to encounter and draw one more card to replace it, which you must encounter.

[From Prophetess card.]

Explorer
You don't just stride through the world. You explore it. Every glade, cave and ridge. Or you're just looking for trouble.

Whenever you are drawing Adventure cards, you may draw one extra which you must also encounter.

[Modified Swashbuckler ability. It's very potent (and potentially dangerous) so it should be pricey. Obviously it is ment to work in "realms" as well.]

COMBAT RELATED

Psycher
Your mind is your best weapon. Why dirty your hands when your iron will should snap your opponent's like a twig.

When you attack another character, you may choose to make the attack psychic combat. You may not do this when you are attacked by another character.

[Quite popular ability among spellcasters. I borrowed title from WH40K universe. It dosen't sound quite right in Talisman setting but I couldn't think of anything better ("Fighting Spirit" is right out).]

Martial Master
You are in control. Your mind and body are one, perfect killing machine.

Your special training allows you to add your Craft value to your Strength during battle.

[From Monk card (minus inner belief). This might be very dangerous in the wrong hands (mine)].

Duellist
You take your fights very seriously. This was only a warm-up. Now again, this time for real.

If you are defeated or have a stand-off in battle, you may ignore the result and immediately fight that battle again. Any effects, special abilities, Objects or Spells used or cast in the first battle remain in effect for the second battle. You must accept the result of the second battle.

[From Amazon card.]

Man-at-arms
You know your job. you know your strength. You know your enemy's weakness. Use it.

You may roll two dice in battle and use the higher attack roll to determine your attack score.

[From Warrior card. My second favourite special ability.]

Ambidexter
It takes some practice not to chop your arm or head off. Look at the advantages though.

You may use two Weapons at the same time.

[From Warrior card. My favourite special ability. Nothing like wielding two magic weapons at once.]

Berserker
You fight with frenzied rage. Pain doesn't matter, wounds doesn't matter. What matters is victory.

You may roll two dice in battle and add them together to determine your attack score. However, after the battle you must lose one life in addition to any lives you lose as a result of a battle.

[Modified ability from Dragon Slayer card - Dragons expansion. Automatic lose of life instead of "on the double roll" to balance it a little and allow it to be used in any battle, not just against Dragons.]

OTHER

Regeneration
You heal quite quickly, aren't you? You must have troll's blood in your veins.

Whenever you roll a 6 for your move,you may regenerate instead of moving. If you choose to regenerate, heal one life and your turn immediately ends.

[From Troll card. Quite usefull but I don't really know how could you acquire such an ability. Magic? Transfusion?]

Pickpocket
Oh! Pardon me for bumping into you, Sir. I don't suppose you'll be needing this gold anymore.

You may take one gold or Object of your choice from a character that you land on.

[From Thief card. Very usefull ability. And anoying if you are it's target.]

Theurgist
You can feel the magic flow around you. You can always tap into this flow.

During the game, you always have at least one Spell. Gain Spell each time you cast your last Spell.

[Another popular ability among spellcasters.]

Life Leech
Your followers are but a cattle to you. They should be happy to die for your whim.

During your turn, you may drain the life-force from any of your Followers. Discard the choosen Followers and gain 1 life for each.

[From Vampiress card. I know, it's not Diablo 2 but I couldn't just call this ability "Vampire", now could I?]

Sigh... And it's six in the morning again. And I left out the actuall constructive part of my post. AGAIN. Sorry about that. I'll try to finish it in the evening when I get some sleep and take care of this pre-easter chaos. Tune in next time for dramatic conclusion of the saga

inkblob said:

Sorry, I think I misled you in mentioning Space Expanders. There's no connection between those and these Ability cards. It is usually best to make a fan expansion independant of having other expansions, commercial or fan based. The cost and place to acquire an Ability would be on each Ability card, which is aside from how the card it draw/picked in the first place.

inkblob said:

That's an interesting idea to explore. But I would lobby for them being like the Warhorse always. You lose them under conditions in which you tried to do something and failed (or failed really badly) and not by pure randoms. For example, if the Merchant's ability were lost simply because of losing a gold, then a bad roll in the Tavern (not really doing something... taking an action of choice) would be all it would take.

Unlike the Magical Abilities in the other topic automatically gained in a random draw, these Abilities require effort to obtain after a draw. The Magical abilities are also lost in interACTION; one can be taken away by another Player using say a Nullify, or an M.A. can be discarded by choice for an action. The standard Abilities herein are being acquired by effort on top of drawing them. It would make that effort less attractive if they just vanished based on random happenstance with not choice.

On a tangent, some notions for draws from the Abilities deck(s).

1. An additional choice when an Adventure card offers a "wish."
2. Upon defeating an Enemy by a certain amount.
3. Upon defeating another Character (not crazy about this one)
4. Landing on one's own Starting Space
5. An option in place of replentishing or gaining a Fate
6. Visiting the Enchantress (you still roll, but you get to draw regardless of the result)
7. Visting the Castle (as an alternative option)
8. ??? Any other condition not requiring a change to the board.

Additionally, if the Abilities were in three sets, Strength-based, Craft-based, and Other, for #2 above one would draw based on the type of combat, with the option to draw from the Other deck instead. For Example, defeating a Goblin (Strength) would allow a draw from either the Strength or Other deck.

NOTE: Many of the abilities are not based on either Strength or Craft; this is how the game gets around the severe limits of a two Attribute system. Some abilities might be reasoned as either Craft or Strength, but others aren't so clear... beyond Craft being the catch-all for anything that isn't clearly Strength based.

We don't want to use too many options for draw triggers or it would just get too complicated. Action of choice and some few randoms would be the best set of triggers. One additional notion I did have, though, was if you defeat another character, you have the option to "pick" an ability card (if available) that matches an ability your opponent has. Then you have to gain it by requirements on the card. Overall, if a final package were actually developed, suggested draw/pick triggers could be listed. Any group using the cards could choose which ones to use. Or a few basic ones are the standard, and optional ones are listed as well.

I will try to go through the base characters (as a starting point) and itemized their abilities. We'll keep all of the other suggestions herein as well to add to the list once we have some notions of what the base ones require. Wherever possibly, I think naming abilities is best be based on how they are referenced on character cards, sticking to their implied paradigm of an action taken (in most cases). Then we can talk about the cost and location (if any) for acquistion; some might be paid for "anywhere". In the meantime, it would be helpful if we could discuss more about how the cards are drawn or picked. Maybe some triggers allow a pick instead of a draw.

For those interested in continuing discussion of Addon Abilities, please download and view this file: ABILITIES.PDF. If you have problems viewing it, please tell me which version of Acrobat you are using; I may be able down-step the document's format to accommodate earlier Acrobat versions.

This document is not a final statement of abilities. Much information is still needed. I'm hoping that keeping an inventory separate from our posts (updateable and downloadable) might be more efficient than doing so in posts. Not all abilities raised in this topic are in the document. If I forgot to include one of your suggestions, it is because (1) there are so many that I overlooked one and (2) I'm staring with known abilities on character cards as a foundation for rating new ones never seen before.

Feel free to make suggestions on anything in the document. In addition, notions for play mechanics in acquiring cards are still encouraged.

Mr. B and Jon New... I am still in process for fulfiling your other requests. You have not been forgotten; it has just been a very busy day.

Hello again. I just had an idea for these abilities. I am not sure how to gain the abilities, but what about having the abilities split up. Some abilities are more used for characters that are "spell casters" and others for "fighters". I was thinking it could be cool to ad a requirement for the ability:

• You need a starting craft of 4 or more for this ability.
• You need a starting strenght of 3 or more for this ability.
• You need a starting fate value of 4 or more for this ability
• etc.

Well, just an idea I wanted to ad

I think the "Starting" would work for some, but in some cases the abilities themselves force a minimum attribute. It's not good picking one of the Spell based abilities until you have at least Craft 3, and some aren't much good until Craft 5 or 6. Those that have a Cost in spells are also going to require a bit of Craft to get the Spells first. For example, an ability to always have a spell, or be able to discard a first draw and draw again, might well require Spells to trade in for the ability.

The abilities are categorized roughly based on Craft, Strength, and Other. This is actually more useful than trying to define mage vs fighter. Many Talisman characters are in the hinterlands between (or to the side of) such general class terms. When people acquire an ability by a draw (if that's one way), they'll need to know what to go after based on their strongest and weakest attribute first, and not necessarily what their character's title and other abilities say about it. This is assuming there are three decks to choose from (Strength, Craft, Other).

If you're running a mage with a Strength of 2, you may want to find a way to get some Battle bonuses. One might be Battle-Craft (one possible title for it) that lets you add Craft value in weaponless Battle, like the Monk. Or perhaps Battle Tactics, that lets you use Followers for +1 each, like the Gladiator. And so on... But overall, the fighter based stuff is in the Strength category (plus some other things). Same for mages under Craft... plus some other things. And the Other is a real interesting mix of thievish, roguish, merchantile and other abilities for some spice.

The big problem is now Cost, Locations to pay the Cost, and any additional Conditions for excuting both to activate the new special ability. On top this are still the triggers for when an ability card is draw or picked. Some of them already have some Fate costs as well. Getting some that allow +1, or +2 in praying (where all the freebies are... ridiculously so at the Temple) is a conduit for massive free boosts at the Temple. If memory serves, it costs 1 Life, 1 Fate, and 1 Spell or Magic Object, but the potential benefits in praying are rather good by how the ability alters probabilities of prayer rolls. The payback is potetially 3 to 10 times the cost if you can hit the right spaces.

Take a look at the PDF, and if can, help me figure some missing pieces. I'm already getting some feedback from some lurkers among three testing groups that have used my past expanions. (The Space Expanders pack is getting some play, by the way.)

I see your point JC, and it makes sence. I was thinking about another thing to all this ability gaining. Something that would hold me back for using an expansion with this, is if it will take away the uniqe parts of characters. If other characters have the option to get the same ability as all my character, then I think it will take the feel away of having something uniqe. I like what you mention ealier, where it was the most basic abilities that would be availeble to gain:

JCHendee said:

This I can accept if I should play it. And maybe some other new abilities, that is not shared with other characters. I was adding something with power abilities ealier. They are not actually abilities, but could be used together with this I think.

The one thing I would like is that all characters will have something that others can't have. It is okey gaining abilities with objects and followers due to the risk of losing them again.

This is just my opinion - No need to share it.

cheers

OK. I should probably start with this part of my post, but I hope that my incomplete list of abilities will be of some use.

Now. I will start from the back again. Probably the least important part of this project but I have a clear vision of it and I will then work my way to more important aspects. So how should those cards look like? To distinguish them from many other cards surrounding Character card I think they could be printed sideways - like Quest cards turned 90 degrees. I'm not a programmer so I have no idea how hard would it be to implement it in Strange Eons but if it is possible without re-writing whole code the new Ability cards would match nicely the Alignment cards which are a bit similar in how they alter Character card.

As for the instructions how to obtain and pay for new ability I thought that Your (JC) Rule Cards would work perfectly. I'm not so sure anymore because after reading some more of this thread I realized that You are thinking more of random or semi-random drawing the ability cards rather then having them work more like purchase/quest cards that you can choose and pursue. One other thing. With purchase-like system (you can say your character is going somewhere to LEARN specific ability) you would need multiple copies of each ability. With drawing system there can be only one or two copies of a given card but the game would get more competitive. It could lead to situation when a character would obtain an ability he already has just to prevent others from getting it. I'm not very competitive myself but that's just me. Objectively it would be interesting change of pace - hunting abilities instead running for the Crown.
In "purchase system" the card itself could contain just ability rule and flavor text (I love flavor texts ) and the rest of the info could be placed on separate Rule cards. In "random system" (I'm using "purchase" and "random" just as a handles - they don't describe either system very well) all information would have to be on the cards themselves. It would make for a very crowded card design.

Now the biggest question. Where to go? What to do? How much it will cost?

In "purchase system" it could work like a Warlock Quests. You go someplace first (possibly relevant to ability in question), then go and finish some task, get the ability on completion. In "random system" there would be many different triggers but some could still be non-random - defeating a dragon by 5 or more would trigger Dragon Ave ( /Dragonlord), visiting thieves guild in the City (space not realm) could allow you to learn Pickpocket ability, fencing master in the Castle could teach you Weapon Mastery /Dual-wield and so on.

Me personally, I would prefer "purchase system" despite it making for some cheesy (with a triple cheese) characters. It would help to avoid situations like: "Oh, I'm a pious Knight and I just drew Vampirism. Why anyone would want to do such thing??" or "So I'm a Wizard and I can blast anything into oblivion with couple of spells. Why should I need Dual-wield?".

In the next few days I will go through Your PDF file and think about specific locations, costs and conditions.

For a good start:
Battle Mastery
(I like this title the best. I think that my naming system was a little off. It should be name of the Ability itself and not the person who possess it.)

Attack roll and attack score are both used in the main rulebook. This does not imply that you must be attacker. On the page 10 there is section "Character Attack Roll" and right underneath "Creature Attack Roll". Similar wording on the next page in "Battles Between Two Characters". If someone really wants to they will miss-interprete it but i bet it's just to gain unfair advantage.

Cost/location/conditions
Castle for sure. Instructor/Academy perhaps but it's just one (two) cards in the deck of 290 (and counting). Chances for the latter are slim at best but it could be an alternative when they do get into play. Cost in gold (like it should be for most if not all abilities which you can actually learn by example and practice) - lets say 5 Gold. It's a good ability but not the best in my book. Conditions - lose two turns (for learning process) and then go out and practice (discard trophies worth 10 points of Strength). There you go. It's not cheap or fast but not impossible for even a starting Character.

I'm not totally sure how you would keep track of everything if there wasn't a central location where you went to get these new skills. I understand how you wouldn't want to use the existing Space Expanders suite, but having one tailored for this would work in that case.

Like Felis said, you would need multiples of each ability if you went this route. The card amount and rule fatigue might be pretty high. The logistics of having dozens of new skills available at a dozen new locations, each one having it's own individual criteria for accessing is overwhelming, I think it would sink itself in it's own rules.

Without trying to figure out the actual cost for gaining ( or losing ) the abilities, or how they actually operate, how you initially run across them seems like a good idea to figure out as expressed earlier.

There is conditions that exist outside the board, they might be on a rule sheet and act as achievments, players would have to be familiar and aware as those opportunities arise; there is the central location(s), this should be ideally in the Middle Region so it's not too easy for players to get to right away; then there is many locations with individual skills available.

Are there any other fundamental ways of acquiring and encountering these skills? Which ones require multiple cards? Which ones require additional cards? Which ones have the most rules? Which ones work best within the desired framework of the intention of this mod? Each one stacks up a bit different and has it's own pros and cons.

Here is a sugestion how to keep track of everything.

1. create a card the same size as character card (not nessesary, but just a sugestion).
2. Display all the abilieties on the card and how to achive them (not sure if there are room for all)
3. Make a field for every ability, where you can place a counter to show that you have achived it.

The disadvantage with this way is less room for abilities, but maybe there should only be about 10-16 abilities to keep things more "simple". Then chose the abilities that would have most impact on the game or just funniest.

The good thing is that you only need to print 6-8 cards or how many players you assume would play.

cheer

I actually tested out something like this with a character card template. I was able to get about 8-10 abilities on the card... with some cutting down of abilities explanation and skipping things like sage in the Crags/Chasm/etc. but keep things like "always have one spell". But there was no room to describe even a simplistic way to acquiring them (like just immediately discarding stuff on the spot... like most of the commercial quests). But I would still be interested in hearing which abilities people think would be the most sought after... then maybe taking another shot at a one card layout.

Felis said:

The problem is as you mention for SE... a non-standard configuration. I have been toying with a card template that would have some of he motif of a character card's decorations but in an adventure card sharp and size. Nothing to show yet for review.

Felis said:

It's possible we could go mutliple directions on card acquisition. There could be triggers for drawing or for picking. As to Quests, most groups I know have dropped the "picking" approach completely. Too much grabbing for whatever can be "purchased/bought-out" on the spot.

Felis said:

It could also be inbetween. The more potent abilities would be one or two, while the less potent and utilitarian would be 2-4. Of course with people printing these themselves, they could do whatever count they wanted. But yes, part of this would produce some competition. And it could just be ruled that if on a draw you didn't like and ability - or you already had it - you could immediately discard ti. No sense hanging on to an ability that you'll never "acquire."

Felis said:

Yea, you're dead on. It's something to wrestle with, and maybe it just won't work. But either way a card will be needed, as well as a rules card, and then some more testing can be done. In the case of Abilities, as with Quests, an illustration isn't necessary, so that would gain some space.

Felis said:

I have thought of acquisition relations, but a couple of problems popped up. How does one know where which ability is acquired? If they are broken down by skill sets or particular skills, that means a few different places. Possibly such are listed on the card, but what to do when someone goes to the City? Are they just going to grab another Ability card to avoid having to visit the Enchantress? It could become a loophole for people to void stuff and just pile up Ability cards so no one else can get them.

Felis said:

That's a legitimate point, but the idea that there are places with a shopping list of abilities to pick has problems as well. One thing about Talisman is that you're never quite sure what's coming out of any deck... and when it comes to stuff to keep, you don't always keep it. Yea, there are hoarders in the game who try to keep every little thing, but many will just ditch or use up an a worthless Object or Spell. Abilities can be ruled for immediate discard if undesireable. Kind of like there's an opportunity that popped up... so do your want to take or pass it by? It's a choice.

Felis said:

Yea, I kind of guessed the same for that attack wording... which could have been worded much better. I find 4ER mucked up terminology a lot, used wording inconsistently, and was in very bad need of a "technical" as well "style" editor. Maybe that's just me for the biz that I'm in.

Felis said:

Those are all good points! And the reasoning is sound. But 5G and 10 Trophies and miss 2 Turns? Youch! I'm not against it myself, truly, but would that be too high a price for the common Talisman player vs some of us who expect some blood, sweat, and tears in exchange for glory? Just asking.

I have thought that one could discard trophies, learning it through experience on the go, so to speak. And when an ability would have few "spaces" for paying the cost, there's no harm in adding pertinent Place and Stranger cards.

While we're at it, does anyone have preferences for which Abilities should be address first... likely as most popular or sought out? Probably the ones for Battle and Spells, maybe then Psychic Combat and Lives... but maybe there's others I'm forgetting.

JCHendee said:

I like the abilities to be something new and something I realy WOULD like to use my turns trying to achive. I thought of those listed. They are not anything like what you else can get in the game. I am not sure of the cost or how and where to achive them. The names could also be changed.

For these abilities except magic and experience, you could just place counters on your starting value to represent them.

Imagine making the Wizard craft 7. Then he ads that munc when using Phonic blast. The monk could do the same to up his ability. Or an evil could have more fate to replenish gaining the Belief "title".

Use or do what you like with it.

cheers

Wisdom: Ad 2 to your starting ctraft value.

Might: Ad 2 to your starting strenght value.

Magic: You may have 5 spells.

Life: Ad 2 to your starting life value

Belief: Ad 2 to your starting fate value.

Experience: You need 2 less trophies point to exchange for a reward.

Hmmm... well, what you propose actually makes for a potential alternative. A simple rules card could be created where one could discard trophies of the standard amount to add to ones starting values or limits instead of gaining straight Strength and Craft tokens. For instance, if the trophy cost for the night is set at 7, you discard 14 (or whatever) to up your Craft value by 1 instead of gaining a Craft token. It still increases your overall Craft, but not as much for the benefit of abilities that are based in Starting Craft instead of Natural Craft (starting + tokens) and Current Craft (all bonuses). This has a built in deterrent; if you don't keep up on actual Craft tokens, you won't keep up in the game. Similar could be done for Strength... however, with no real abilities based in Starting Strength, it would almost never be used.

As to Fate and LIves, the mechanic would be simpler. Just rule that when ever you gain 1 (not replenish or heal), you have the option to instead increase you limit... your Starting value. Then later you can amass more than what the character card starts with.

The Experience one is more troublesome... and one that would quickly undercut the game itself. Imagine half the players taking that one. It geometricly increases the value of their trophies verses those players who don't have Experience. But again, one could rule that any combination of 14 Trophies could be discarded to reduce the Trophy costs for that player by 1. And that high a cost would be the only way I would play it. Any player seeking out such a game bending benefit would have to fall behind for a while before trying to catch up.

Spell limit could be increased at a cost of Spells. Of course the necessary Craft of 7+ would be required. At any point thereafter, a character can discard 3 Spells to increase its spell limit by 1.

Just notions, but these could be implemented without any cards or components at all. Just a rules card. There's a card template for that in SE if you want to take a crack at it and share it with us for review.

JCHendee said:

Yeaa, you might be right that it could be an alternative instead. Some of the abilities could be changed to balace them more due to what you explained. The way you suggest they could be earned is pretty cool actually.

I know the Might "ability" is pretty worthless - there are no benefit so far.

Anyway, I give this to you so you can **** more into it or just discard, whatever you like.

cheers