Calm down, gentlemen. Let's wait for real evidence before we hit the panic buttons.

Genius existed for a long, long time without issue in 1st edition. It was a combination of factors that broke him, but chief among them were the total lack of consequences on the Bomblet Generator, and Nym being able to use VI to get to PS10 and have perfect information when dropping it. There was also the fact he then either got to hit you with an Accuracy Corrected Autoblaster or a TLT.

But none of those things will apply in second edition. You have a very limited supply of bombs unless you're giving your action every turn to reload (even with the Bomblet), you can't guarantee you'll be moving last with them, and you won't be able to back it up with hyper-accurate turret fire. I'm not saying it's going to be unplayable trash, but take over the meta again? I find that unlikely.

28 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

How is pointing out the flaws in a card and providing a solution trolling?

But the alleged flaws are only so from your point of view. It is also the blatent disregard of one of the key design elements of 2.0 - that of removing the point costs from the cards (and upgrade slots) so that they can be adjusted in value. You claim to care about the design of 2.0 but you are picking and choosing which parts of the overall game design to supposedly help your argument.

26 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Advanced Sensor Barrel roll for instance makes that very challenging. Also, there could be scum ships in the future that DO have boost.

Okay. This will make it harder to block the move, but you will still likely be in range of your own bomb, with a few exceptions, so you will still be damaging yourself potentially - which makes it rather fair design wise.

I think Predator with Crackshot as a combo is going to be broken. A reroll AND you cancel a defense die, its going to be very consistent damage.

Now there arent any ships with 2 talent slots yet but who knows what they might release??

29 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

Feel free to add this to watch list though.

This is where I'm at right now.

So far, FFG has set their dials but they have not activated yet. While we think we may have some good guesses at where they're going, we just don't know yet.

Saying cost means nothing to whether an upgrade is fair or not...come on. Nothing we’ve seen is that broken. Cost is an active balancing tool in 2.0. Is X ability worth Y points remains the question still.

Something to watch? Sure. Along with force users, Dash, Luke Gunner, and pretty much anything that operates outside of normal rules of the other mechanics. Force may be a “normal” mechanic but it is an extremely powerful one limited to a small number of pilots.

On 7/23/2018 at 9:20 AM, Lace Jetstreamer said:

• Ways for ships to not self damage (boost) but still be able to drop bombs on their targets 

There are no scum ships with boost, bombs, and astromech. The only ways to avoid taking your own damage from genius are:

1. Drop to the side with sol and roll away (I'm 90% sure this works)
2. Use a seismic charge on a rock far from you
3. Use your own quadjumper to tractor yourself out of bomb range (jank city).

I'm not a massive fan of genius (or trajectory simulator, for that matter), but he is going to be more expensive and less dangerous than he was before. Importantly, he will only practically be usable a few times per game due to the impracticality of avoiding bombing yourself. The most consistently safe genius bomber is sol, who is only in3 and can drop 4 bombs at most (unless he's eating 2+ shields on bomblet reloads). Nym at PS5 is certainly the most dangerous.

FFG will be probably not introduce a boosting scum bomber with an astromech specifically because of genius, and if they do then genius will probably be made more expensive on that ship.

Are alts legal on this forum? Because we have a bit of a situation here.

3 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

The card is still broken regardless of cost. I gave my supporting evidence for this. Increasing the cost just means the card will be impossible to use.

You gave your opinion on why is broken. I know it s a common mistake to confuse the two nowadays, but opinions aren't evidence.

20 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Are alts legal on this forum? Because we have a bit of a situation here.

It's not me I swear. Although, I had to double check

Pro tip... mines are basically the same, just for all factions and no self damage. They're just offset by one turn... High PS pilots can maneuver, reposition and then drop unavoidable mines next round directly onto other ships without even using an action.

I don't love this but it's definitely a thing and I've definitely been doing it in my proxy games... Boba is pretty good at it in particular with boost and i5

(Also RCC is still a thing.)

Punk raises a valid point - mines are a high-init issue now. Proximity mines are pretty naff in most cases (unless facing fragile interceptors), but a conner net is really going to ruin anyone's day.

On the plus side, conner nets WILL NOT eat your action the turn they are dropped on you - they just do 1 damage and 3 ion. The ions (which hit in the system phase) will also not take effect until the following turn, as per this quote from the rulebook:

Quote

During the Planning Phase, an ionized ship is not assigned a dial.

During the Activation Phase, an ionized ship that did not have a dial assigned to it during the Planning Phase activates as follows: ...

A conner net pre-activation will still ruin your day, especially if you have no reposition actions. However, you can work around it somewhat with the following steps during the planning phase:

Am I in bombing range of a ship carrying a conner net? -> If no, all good. If yes, I must anticipate that on my next turn I am going to be doing a 1fwd -> pick a move that won't send me off the board when I do the 1fwd.

Of course, this isn't always possible, and conner nets are still very scary for things like the ghost or a deci. Remember though that in order to drop one on you, the bomber has to fly up and spend a whole combat phase sitting next to you. In this respect, the timing of conner net feels very much like the timing of EMP device (RIP you hilarious upgrade). This is a bit less frustrating than being hit with an advanced SLAM bomb before you even have a chance to shoot, but beware of bombers who SLAM past and spend the combat phase sitting out of arc.

6 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Cost has nothing to do with it.

Of course it does. If it costs other opportunities/equipment to take, then it's not half as scary.

Sure, flag it, but save the panic for when the points are released.

6 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

So... Which ships are suspect then?

I would assume the scurrg.

Havoc still retains it's current 'remove crew/add system & astromech' function.

therefore Nym/Havoc/Genius/Advanced Sensors/Bomb of choice can be compared to the existing version (Nym/Havoc/Genius/Advanced Sensors/Engine Upgrade) .

Current version vs new version:

• Movement Order
  • PS8, usually upped to PS10 with veteran instincts
    • Initiative 5 with no option to improve means Vader/Fenn/Fell always get to move, boost and roll after you
• Repositioning
  • Both get to reposition before moving
    • 2.0 cannot boost, and barrel roll is red (meaning that you can do so but are limited to a - fairly shonky - green dial if you do so)
    • You can make barrel rolls white with expert handling at extra cost
• Bomb options
  • Both have double bomb slots, allowing any bomb choice
    • Nym has not gained reload, meaning the only way he can recover a bomblet charge is by burning a shield.
    • If he spends shields on bomb charge, the only way to recover them is with an R2 astromech or a Gonk crew. Neither can be equipped to a Havoc build which presupposed Genius.
    • Proton Bombs no longer undercut shields
    • Seismic Charges require a conveniently placed rock
    • Proximity Mines are specifically a 'mine' not a 'bomb' and do not work with "Genius"
• Genius drop
  • Nym's ability to fling bombs with a trajectory simulator shouldn't be overstated, and in its initial veteran instincts-move-genius-launch incarnation was one of the most broken things ever seen in the game.
    • Genius' rules now specifically state 'drop' as opposed to 'drop or launch' (compare Deathrain).
    • It only works if you fully execute the manouvre
    • Barrel rolling to avoid blocking works, but can also move the bomb out of blast radius
• Immunity to the blast
  • Scum nym is immune to friendly bombs, rebel nym can hold the blast, and boost after dropping will clear the blast zone
    • Nym can still hold a detonation (he now has a the rebel ability).
    • He is no longer immune to bombs.
      • Ablative plating can provide a limited immunity but (a) it's only 2 charges and (b) only prevents 1 damage (which can be overloaded by an unlucky bomblet)
    • He can only barrel roll, and even with a medium base, that is no longer enough to clear a blast zone
• Support upgrades
  • Cad Bane/Sabine Wren 'blast enhancement'
    • Sabine is Rebel only and - whilst tactically devastating with jam/ion/stress bombs - doesn't actually increase damage done.
    • Cad Bane allows a red boost after dropping a bomb specifically on the ship he's on. Which can be Nym but cannot be the Havoc as it gives up its crew slot to allow "Genius".

Given the distinct reduction in effectiveness, I don't think he's too bad. Especially since he can now be blocked, doesn't get unlimited bombs without self-damage, cannot out-step the aces on initiative

7 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Solution

The ideal solution is to just remove the card from the game. However, if FFG wants to keep the card in, I think it should read.

Quote

Before executing a maneuver , if you have not dropped or launched a device this round and HAVE NOT performed any actions , you may drop 1 bomb.

Why? Opponents will have MORE information regarding where a bomb will be placed. A bomb is still being dropped outside of the system's phase but it will be dropped in a location that a player can easily predict and can avoid. It still provides scum players with an advantage that other factions DO NOT have but that advantaged is balanced. I have also made sure that players can't advance sensor boost or barrel roll before dropping which again is OP.

I disagree. This way, it literally only benefits high initiative bombers (i.e. Nym). Genius' rules normally do do something very important - they allow someone to place a bomb in a location which is not normally possible.

A lower initiative Y-wing with genius can move, then trigger genius, then drop a bomb somewhere unexpected, then barrel roll. "Genius" is a positive thing for the game when he's letting you put bombs where they shouldn't be, but you're still having to think and outguess the opponent, not when he's letting you abuse being high initiative and removing any judgement from the game.

Now, I don't disagree that a higher initiative pilot gets far more value out of genius, but that's why points aren't just flexible in general, but (according to rumour) are specifically flexible by pilot.

"Genius" on an Initiative 1 Goon is still worth considering if it's free. A seismic charge that you can place after your move still needs cleverness to use effectively, but it's giving you more options, not 'I have perfect knowledge of the board state and can then make decisions'. I have no problem with this being cheap or even free.

"Genius" on Nym is a lot more powerful, and should probably be more expensive (especially since he can only be equipped on Nym if Havoc is also taken, so you're probably looking at either Trajectory Simulator or Advanced Sensors in the systems slot).

OP, I understand your concerns, but they're of little consequence to competitive games. Experienced players can easily block the lacklustre dials of the Scurrg and Y-Wing to prevent genius from triggering. However, newer players and casual k=janky lists are going to struggle with such power, especially if it can be housed on a PS 5 frame. However, I think that to make the upgrade more palatable it should read:

Genius (4 points)
Action: Spend 1 shield drop a bomb token that could be dropped from an equipped upgrade card using the [1 Straight] template. This bomb may not be launched instead.

So, like Bomblet Generator, you can get as many bombs out of the card as you have shields. But it costs the very amazing (in 1.0, at least) astromech slot, an action each time you do it, and costs a massive amount more than the 1.0 card.

Overall, it's not something I'm going to be concerned by. Currently, my biggest worry is that the developers reaction to the dying 1.0 meta is going to heavily favour jousting lists, which require dramatically less skill to fly than even arc-dodgers in waves 6-7 of 1.0.

2 minutes ago, Astech said:

Genius (4 points)
Action: Spend 1 shield drop a bomb token that could be dropped from an equipped upgrade card using the [1 Straight] template. This bomb may not be launched instead.

Genius already prevents you launching a bomb forwards. Is there a particular reason Sol Sixxa needs his ability whomping?

5 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Genius already prevents you launching a bomb forwards. Is there a particular reason Sol Sixxa needs his ability whomping?

Currently, the FAQ is the only thing preventing a bomb being launched from Genius' drop. I figured making it explicit on the card would be better overall, given the extra space for text in 2.0. Sol Sixxa's currently worded ability should still let him drop sideways bombs with this Genius version.

7 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Cost has nothing to do   with it.

Sorry but obviously cost is the way of balance for good card. Hunter Luke is good, cost is high. So also, genius is just fine, don't concern mines, bombs are way different than in v1, less easy to use, cost an action and your shot to reload or shield for the bombets so the balance is very good.

Genius is to bombs what Luke is to turrets and tarkin to ordnance. An way to beginners to effectively explore a part of the game. We will discuss the broken or not when cost will be available, and after that, FFG still will be able to change it for debrokening the card.

6 more weeks, rez this thread then and see who's right and who's sky has fallen.

1 hour ago, Astech said:

Currently, the FAQ is the only thing preventing a bomb being launched from Genius' drop. I figured making it explicit on the card would be better overall, given the extra space for text in 2.0. Sol Sixxa's currently worded ability should still let him drop sideways bombs with this Genius version.

I was talking about 2.0 - In 2.0, 'Launch' and 'Drop' are explicitly different and permission for one is not permission for the other.

4 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I was talking about 2.0 - In 2.0, 'Launch' and 'Drop' are explicitly different and permission for one is not permission for the other.

That's a good point. But we still don't know about the interaction with Trajectory Simulator-like cards and the new genius. I think making it explicitly impossible for a genius bomb to be launched on the card will save some OP-combo headaches down the road.

9 minutes ago, Astech said:

That's a good point. But we still don't know about the interaction with Trajectory Simulator-like cards and the new genius. I think making it explicitly impossible for a genius bomb to be launched on the card will save some OP-combo headaches down the road.

It is, because Trajectory Simulator already puts those restrictions in place:

"During the System Phase, if you would drop or launch a bomb, you may launch it using the 5 straight template instead. "

I don't think anyone would object too much to making "Genius" an action in 1.0, but in 2.0 actions are very precious.

4 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

It is, because Trajectory Simulator already puts those restrictions in place:

"During the System Phase, if you would drop or launch a bomb, you may launch it using the 5 straight template instead. "

I don't think anyone would object too much to making " Genius " an action in 1.0, but in 2.0 actions are very precious.

True, but it'd be a good idea to future-proof the design in case other 'launch' abilities become available on scum ships with astromechs.

You're right about the action though. Maybe just requiring the ship to lose a shield would be sufficient? Or perhaps take two ion tokens?

It's hard to take someone seriously when they say cost is irrelevant. It's the most important thing about any upgrade.

There is a big difference in 2nd edition though. At the moment PS10 Nym basically gets to decide whether to drop his bomb before or after moving and has perfect (or near-perfect) information about the board state. In 2nd edition you have to decide if you want to drop a bomb in the System phase before anyone moves. If you don't drop then you're committed to either using Genius later or not dropping a bomb at all. If you intend to use Genius you don't know yet whether that will be effective because the enemy ships haven't moved yet. You might find the enemy doesn't go where you expected, or you bump them and can't use Genius.

Genius is pretty good, but I think it's more because your opponent will have to consider both options when planning their moves, not just one. At the same time, the player with Genius needs to make the decision to use it or not without having the perfect information they do now. I suspect Genius will not be a free upgrade any more so taking it will be a real decision rather than the auto-include it is now.

A lot of upgrade cards allow you to do things that other cards don't allow you to do. It's why they exist.

26 minutes ago, Astech said:

Maybe just requiring the ship to lose a shield would be sufficient?

With Bomblet Generator (the most likely choice for a scurrg with Genius) already eating your shields to recharge, and it no longer being possible to get out of the blast radius of a Genius-dropped bomb before it goes off, that feels like a death sentence to the upgrade on half the ships capable of equipping it.

26 minutes ago, Astech said:

Or perhaps take two ion tokens?

Ionized is supposedly 'blue moves only and focus action only'? That doesn't sound too bad if you're planning for it, especially since Static Discharge Vanes and Electronic Baffle are a thing.