8 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

It’s not the existence of heresy, it’s more the fact that its more important members are high positioned samurai.

Heresy of the heimin is not a scandal, because they don’t know better. However, heresy of a Daimyo or an Emerald Champion...

Like in the PLS, which is widely known, but the Dragon hid the fact that Mashahige’s son joined them, because that’s a shame for the Dragon.

But he is heimin too by birth, would be perfect fodder for those who are against the adoption plan of the Dragon. It seems more that no one is aware of his defection, doesn't his father just know he disappeared?

PLS could be a front for the Kolat. Or maybe it's not even a front, in terms of sincerity. Maybe PLS is the religion of the Kolat, like the mass consumption form of Kolat doctrine.

20 minutes ago, Waywardpaladin said:

But he is heimin too by birth, would be perfect fodder for those who are against the adoption plan of the Dragon. It seems more that no one is aware of his defection, doesn't his father just know he disappeared?

There’s nothing that indicates that he’s heimin, that was just a theory by Tonbo Karasu. Plausible, but no real yet.

In the first fiction, Masashige pictures his son being executed by being part of the PLS, so I’d say he knows he’s with them.

3 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

There’s nothing that indicates that he’s heimin, that was just a theory by Tonbo Karasu. Plausible, but no real yet.

In the first fiction, Masashige pictures his son being executed by being part of the PLS, so I’d say he knows he’s with them.

I think the whole him being adopted when heimin being adopted by samurai is a plot point for Dragon is the indication? After all, the son retorted that his father saying the PLS was against the Celestial Order when his adoption subverts the order as well was a sign of hypocrisy.

Just now, Waywardpaladin said:

I think the whole him being adopted when heimin being adopted by samurai is a plot point for Dragon is the indication? After all, the son retorted that his father saying the PLS was against the Celestial Order when his adoption subverts the order as well was a sign of hypocrisy.

It does assume that the son is an adopted heimin child, which is not out of the realm of possibility, however given his status as the future heir of the Mirumoto its just as likely that he was adopted from a legitimate Samurai family, possibly of lower status but Samurai all the same, and that he has made the assumption that he was of heimin stock in error and refused to believe his father when he was told otherwise.

3 hours ago, Manchu said:

PLS could be a front for the Kolat. Or maybe it's not even a front, in terms of sincerity. Maybe PLS is the religion of the Kolat, like the mass consumption form of Kolat doctrine.

Honestly, that's been my line of thought for a little while now. And with the recent fiction suggesting a more militant branch of the PLS that may or may not answer directly to this heretical monk, it certainly seems more likely that there's ties at least between PLS and Kolat, even if not openly known/acknowledged ones.

If nothing else, I have a hard time believing Kolat would pass up the opportunity to use/manipulate the PLS for its own purposes.

15 minutes ago, Kaito Kikaze said:

Honestly, that's been my line of thought for a little while now. And with the recent fiction suggesting a more militant branch of the PLS that may or may not answer directly to this heretical monk, it certainly seems more likely that there's ties at least between PLS and Kolat, even if not openly known/acknowledged ones.

If nothing else, I have a hard time believing Kolat would pass up the opportunity to use/manipulate the PLS for its own purposes.

Remember its always safe to assume until proven otherwise everything is a Kolat plot

20 minutes ago, Kaito Kikaze said:

Honestly, that's been my line of thought for a little while now. And with the recent fiction suggesting a more militant branch of the PLS that may or may not answer directly to this heretical monk, it certainly seems more likely that there's ties at least between PLS and Kolat, even if not openly known/acknowledged ones.

If nothing else, I have a hard time believing Kolat would pass up the opportunity to use/manipulate the PLS for its own purposes.

The presence of merchants certainly argues in favor of, if not a controlling grip, at least a guiding hand on the tiller...

Well, if you intend to overturn the Imperial Dynasty, it’s good to have a philosophical argument to present to a populace raised in the t eachings of Shinsei...

8 hours ago, Waywardpaladin said:

I think the whole him being adopted when heimin being adopted by samurai is a plot point for Dragon is the indication? After all, the son retorted that his father saying the PLS was against the Celestial Order when his adoption subverts the order as well was a sign of hypocrisy.

Just to be clear here: in all the Snow and Sun fiction, the word “adoption” or any of its variances is not used once.

Correct me if I’m wrong.

On 8/9/2018 at 9:23 PM, Kaito Kikaze said:

So basically we can't call out Kolat because their existence being public knowledge undermines the emperor's divine authority and does their job for them. ?

Having now read the adventure I will point out that, sidebar notwihtstanding, the actual text of the adventure provides more than enough evidence that there is quite a bit of public knowledge of the Kolat as those with Skullduggery know about it, can easily be researched at the library, Sumiko's is said to have had multiple encounters with them and Kāgi is accused of seeing them everywhere.

They might not be widespread knowledge, might have a bit of a urban myth thing going on, but they are known.

Which is something I can actually work with...

On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:07 AM, Suzume Chikahisa said:

Having now read the adventure I will point out that, sidebar notwihtstanding, the actual text of the adventure provides more than enough evidence that there is quite a bit of public knowledge of the Kolat as those with Skullduggery know about it, can easily be researched at the library, Sumiko's is said to have had multiple encounters with them and Kāgi is accused of seeing them everywhere.

They might not be widespread knowledge, might have a bit of a urban myth thing going on, but they are known.

Which is something I can actually work with...

Exactly. There's nothing wrong with "The Kolat" being a label applied to anyone with violent intentions against the celestial order. That's a vague enough concept that allows 'cells' to spontaneously pop up, work together, be crushed by the scorpion or imperial magistrature, whatever, without being a single totally coherent millennia-old entity reporting to one moustache-twirling mastermind that somehow no-one's ever heard of, but rather be various groups unified by a broad philosophy and a 'franchise label'.

It makes them no less dangerous, but puts them more into the realm of the umpty-ump different branches of the IRA.

They may be scary, and they may be organised, and....what the heck, Kagi may be right and they may be everywhere. But the Emerald Magistrates and (presumably) Hidden Guard know they exist and will be checking for evidence of them. Plus, the fact that their first appearance is them screwing up - trying to recruit someone who declined to be recruited - is a hopeful sign that they're not trying to make them infallible illuminati.

If one wanted to take the initial philosophy and create a group, I would think instead of a super secret spy group, it would work better if it is just a heretical and rebellious philosophy.

Similar to the Yellow Turban rebellion that happened in China led by Zhang Jiao and his brothers. It was a threat to the empire so great that it required the uniting of all the major royal families to defeat it. And, even then, it wasn't as though the general discontent by the commoners lessened any by having the soldiers come in and cut down those who tried to stand up for peasant rights.

And the event kicked off two centuries of warfare that led to the absolute destruction and even annihilation of almost all the family lines of the nobles who had united to stop the Yellow Turbans.

A general religious philosophy of unease against the current social paradigm need not even be all that terribly secret or have a single master (or a set of masters). In fact, if the person who wrote the initial text and laid out the philosophy met with a grisly end, they would only serve as a martyr. And for all the power that the shugenja in Rokugan have, they cannot control all the minds of all the people throughout the empire. And every time they smashed down one pocket of discontent, two more would likely pop up as people would be discontented by the way the discontent peasants were dealt with.

And for all the power of the samurai, they are extraordinarily reliant on these peasants that they entirely take for granted. And that has nothing to do with "western philosophy", it was true in China and Japan. And especially the era that Rokugan is based on where there is no social mobility. During the sengoku period, peasants could rise up through the samurai ranks to rule the nation. During the Edo period, which Rokugan's anti-social mobility concept with locked in "eternal" noble families, the samurai became dirt poor within 200 years and it was the merchants and entertainers, those supposedly on the bottom of the social hierarchy, who gathered the wealth and came to start really dictating the policies of the nation. The entire system that Rokugan's supposed "1000 years" history is based on is one that naturally turns fragile and becomes a powder keg so that any outside interference, any excuse, just sees the whole thing being torn down. The Meiji era might have been kicked off by the Americans coming to Japan, but the social systems of the Edo period were defunct and merely a fascade by that time.

So a "Kolat", one would hope by perhaps a better name, that still has the goal of removing humanity from the social constraints imposed upon them by the gods-- that works absolutely fine.

What you don't need is for it to be led by masked grand masters with foreign magic who have to be 3 steps ahead of everyone else and the moment they aren't, they get wiped out and that supposedly ends their whole movement.

Instead, a general subversive philosophy that is spread in secret with rituals done in the dead of night in the places the samurai arrogantly turn a blind eye to, one that isn't reliant on any single figure-head and can easily re-emerge anywhere in the empire at any given time...

Well, that is just far more frightening. Because single individual villains can be killed, usually quite easily. But a philosophy? A symbol? A thought spreading through the land like a virus, turning that which the entire Rokugani system is entirely dependent on to survive-- that is a far greater threat, because outside of giving the heroes a deus ex machina magic power, it can't really be defeated eternally.

I think the depiction in the adventure is pretty vague and wide open. It describes their philosophy and does show that several characters within the adventure are aware of their existence (though they are treated like boogiemen almost). Also there is literature on them in the library to research. Other than that we don't know much about the Kolat really.

Finally having finished reading the online adventure, I am good with the presentation of the kolat so far. My thoughts are the kolat can still have their origin as people from within and outside Rokugan before it was Rokugan banding together to oppose the rule of the kami. Then the name becomes a semi open secret, used and applied to various similar groups throughout history. They don't need be an actual successful Illuminati conspiracy, but groups occasionally claiming to such still works as a threat. Claiming ancient and grand history can be great for recruitment, even if the people claiming such are lying and/or delusional.

I think the Perfect Land Sect and the Kolat are generally similar enough in their general ambition that they might very well be one-and-the-same.

It is difficult to think that anything by the name "Kolat" would have originated within the empire, it seems it has to have foreign roots.

7 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

I think the Perfect Land Sect and the Kolat are generally similar enough in their general ambition that they might very well be one-and-the-same.

It is difficult to think that anything by the name "Kolat" would have originated within the empire, it seems it has to have foreign roots.

Its more that it predates the empire and the language of the Kami. That said there was a wing from the burning sands that had a different spelling

23 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Its more that it predates the empire and the language of the Kami. That said there was a wing from the burning sands that had a different spelling

The Qolat.

The word does indeed come from a pre-Fall language, and means "To Question."

Er... so I've heard, that is...

Really we have several fronts that I can see elements of the Kolat using to spread their Agenda. The Perfect Land Sect is one of the most obvious, but the Mantis and their push for recognition as a great clan would also be good. And the shadowy figures pushing the Lion/Crane conflict with the mysterious mercenaries could easily be another Kolat front to destabilize the major powers. So many threads to explore.