And why they suck! To avoid contributing to an off-topic derail as I so often do...

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What about the concept is it that you find so objectionable, if you don't mind me asking?

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I mean, conceptually aren't they all about freeing humanity from a regressive social system imposed on them by alien beings who took their advanced capabilities as proof that humans were lesser and should serve them? Whose family squabble threatens all of existence?

Of course, the Kolat in practice seemed to have very little in common with that concept.

All right, so, here's my beef with the Kolat:

1. They don't jive with the setting.

Oh, humans resenting being ruled by crashed-in god-beings isn't a horrible place to begin... except that it's a very modern, western POV awkwardly jammed into a setting designed to evoke idealized western notions of East Asian culture and myth. Where the Gozoku conspiracy played with notions of fealty- empire or emperor- the Kolat, if taken at face value, seem like an attempt to inject western notions of rationalism into a setting that.... pretty pointedly and artificially resists such impositions in all other ways.

2. They're a philosophy club that does nothing... and get smeared when they do.

For a shadowy conspiracy stretching back to the dawn of the empire, the Kolat sure suck at their job. Either they lurk unseen, doing... stuff... look, shut up, this evil mastermind stuff is hard!... or they show their hand with crap like going after shadowspawn with crystal weapons and get utterly annihilated. It's kind of hard to regard them as a serious threat if merely knowing they exist endangers them.

3. They're nothing but spy movie tropes awkwardly slapped together.

Manchurian Candidates, moles, "they have eyes everywhere," secret surveillance gear, code names... Look. Just give those toys to the Scorpion, and go away.

4. Their philosophy is even less consistent than clan politics.

Are they devoted philosophers committed to their goals? Finance-minded opportunists? Are they egalitarian, or do they get the most mileage out of high-ranking samurai members? Do they burrow within "host clans" (Unicorn, Ox) and compromise large swathes of ruling families, or are they truly a decentralized conspiracy? Are they focused only on the rule of the kami, or do they oppose any and all supernatural leadership? The answer, throughout their history in the old lore, was "yes."

5. Their continued existence is impressive, for all of the wrong reasons.

In a setting where human rights are nonexistent, and where several agencies devoted to rooting out heresy and witchcraft exist with a broad mandate to do horrible things if needed combined with agents of supernatural evil who have theuir own reasons to regard the Kolat as a threat... somehow the Kolat skate by for most of recorded history, and then, once they're a known quantity, somehow continue to make a mockery of efforts to actually get their thematically-untenable butts exterminated.
The Scorpion? Nope, no idea Special K exists until they're told about it.
The Emerald and Jade Magistrates? Nope!
The Asako Inquisition? Nope!
Formless spawn of the Lying Darkness, capable of stealing identities and subsuming humans through erasure of sense of self? Nah, the Kolat are the only ones capable of holding the line at first!

Now, sure, the Kolat don't directly fall under the purview of, say, the Asako Inquisitors... but the furtive, secretive, cell-based junk they do is exactly the sort of thing an Inquisitor would regard as fishy. But nope, they're SUPER SECRET. Until Shinjo returns from the Burning Sands and blows up most of her own family...

Suffice it to say, I'm emphatically Not A Fan. Gimme Gozoku, gimme nameless cabals working toward shadowy ends, give me peasant unrest fomented upon heresy... but keep your friggin' mustache-twirlers out of my transom.

So it's no single item that make the Kolat an issue, but rather that all of them together transform the group into the Japanese-Fantasy-Sengoku Jidai equivalent of the SPecial Executive for Counterintelligence, Terrorism, Revenge and Extortion ? That about sums it up?

Yeah, I can definitively see why you dislike them now.

I’ve always thought that what the Kolat want to accomplish (Man not under the rule of the Divine) could have been made a lot better by integrating it within the Path of Man (Man becoming Divine).

It would have made more sense to make them as some sort of Asako movement that wants to give freedom to Man by teaching them the Way. I think it’s also something that more fans can get behind, being more like Villain with a Good Purpose. The end justify the means, as long as you (as a reader) can identify with said end.

Also, it’s easier to hide a secret society while you’re inside another secret society.

39 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

I’ve always thought that what the Kolat want to accomplish (Man not under the rule of the Divine) could have been made a lot better by integrating it within the Path of Man (Man becoming Divine).

It would have made more sense to make them as some sort of Asako movement that wants to give freedom to Man by teaching them the Way. I think it’s also something that more fans can get behind, being more like Villain with a Good Purpose. The end justify the means, as long as you (as a reader) can identify with said end.

Also, it’s easier to hide a secret society while you’re inside another secret society.

****, even making them a (covert) branch of bog standard Shinseism would work.

That's the thing, heresies? Fine! Great! Conspiracies? Love 'em!

One True Rational Materialist Conspiracy to Rule Them All? Go away.

As much as I love the Kolat I increasingly want them to come back just to annoy Gunichi.

While I like the idea of Kolat, they felt like a blank slate as a story telling tool and their actions never made really sense.

47 minutes ago, Mangod said:

So it's no single item that make the Kolat an issue, but rather that all of them together transform the group into the Japanese-Fantasy-Sengoku Jidai equivalent of the SPecial Executive for Counterintelligence, Terrorism, Revenge and Extortion ? That about sums it up?

Yeah, I can definitively see why you dislike them now.

The Kolat is pretty much every 90's conspiracy and secret society trope applied to Rokugan yes.

I mean there are a lot of interesting things about the Kolat, but the way they are connected is an example of making the whole less than the sum of its parts.

The dispossessed human leaders fighting against the fallen kami? Cool.

Idealists fighting for the elevation of humanity? Cool.

Cabal of power hungry traders and criminals out for themselves? Cool.

Even the Unicorn infiltration could have been cool.

The problem is that three persons can keep a secret if two of them are dead, and we are to believe that they were absolutely sucessful in mantaining the masquerade and their purpose for a thousand years, without really spliting*, more so when we consider that in those thousand years there is really no sign they were even remotely close to ever achieveing any of their goals.

It doesn't help that (Yokatsu's character assassination aside) the only Kolat that were even remotely likeable were Yasuki Taka and Kaelung.

Remove the Oni's Eye, loosen and/or sever the connection between the sects (some of which should probably be deleted), add more nuance to the Unicorn infiltration and you have a much more verismilar structure to develop the conspiracy (conspiracies really) without much change to the base lore.

* Yeah, I know Ryoko Owari and the Hare Clan adventur, but that happened because apparently AEG thought it was good idea to keep their RPG authors in the dark about their plans at the time.

9 minutes ago, Ignithas said:

While I like the idea of Kolat, they felt like a blank slate as a story telling tool and their actions never made really sense.

Very true.

The Kolat would have been a fine as a conspiracy, or a crime syndicate, or a heretical sect, or secret enemies of the Lying Darkness. or what have you. But as Gunichi points out, they were ALL of those things at the same time, which simply doesn't make sense.

2 minutes ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

The Kolat is pretty much every 90's conspiracy and secret society trope applied to Rokugan yes.

I mean there are a lot of interesting things about the Kolat, but the way they are connected is an example of making the whole less than the sum of its parts.

The dispossessed human leaders fighting against the fallen kami? Cool.

Idealists fighting for the elevation of humanity? Cool.

Cabal of power hungry traders and criminals out for themselves? Cool.

Even the Unicorn infiltration could have been cool.

The problem is that three persons can keep a secret if two of them are dead, and we are to believe that they were absolutely sucessful in mantaining the masquerade and their purpose for a thousand years, without really spliting*, more so when we consider that in those thousand years there is really no sign they were even remotely close to ever achieveing any of their goals.

It doesn't help that (Yokatsu's character assassination aside) the only Kolat that were even remotely likeable were Yasuki Taka and Kaelung.

Remove the Oni's Eye, loosen and/or sever the connection between the sects (some of which should probably be deleted), add more nuance to the Unicorn infiltration and you have a much more verismilar structure to develop the conspiracy (conspiracies really) without much change to the base lore.

* Yeah, I know Ryoko Owari and the Hare Clan adventur, but that happened because apparently AEG thought it was good idea to keep their RPG authors in the dark about their plans at the time.

Pretty much. Just taking one or two of those ideas would have worked, but with all of them together, it just becomes a mess.

So after (more or less) reading through this, it seems like the logical way to make Kolat a thing (if they truly want to do so in the new lore) would be to not have it originate from Rokugan and have been established for a thousand years. Let's say that, maybe certain Unicorn encountered some interesting gaijin humanist philosophies during their travels abroad. Of course, these philosophies would have nothing to do with the Kami. Perhaps they were reactionary philosophies to the djinn, or other rulers in those foreign parts. When the Unicorn return to Rokugan with all this new shiny knowledge they've acquired, these humanist-enamored philosophers find a culture that feels backwards and quaint compared to what they've experienced. What could be the cause for this? Could it be the long-standing traditions enforced by the Kami who established this little empire and use the Hantei bloodline to maintain their control and dictates?

And so a movement of sorts begins, as these Unicorn philosophers - and maybe some more ambitious Rokugani, as well as some truly concerned for the well-being of the empire, and just maybe an extension of the peasantry dissatisfied with the so-called natural order of Kami-inspired culture and their virtual enslavement by the samurai caste - to cast off the Old Ways of the Kami and their empire, and establish a New Order of Man...

I always liked the Kolat in theory. They originally seemed like a Yakuza/Kabukimono/Triad stand in. I think they just took the secret society plus magic and took it too far. The philosophy of the Kolat sounds nice but in actuality they are just a group of self important gangsters trying to get rich. I loved that idea but the execution was ham fisted.

If you look at the cards that existed before the Way of the Merchant it kinda backed up the idea as them being a shadowy criminal orginization. Kolat assassin could kill a low chi card and the Kolat master meant he was part of the conspiracy; both cards in game were super expensive for their effect showing coin for shady effect. They also had cards like Kolat oyabun which tied into the gangster look of the Kolat.

With a reboot and changes I hope the Kolat get more gangsters with a philosophy as an excuse and less SPECTRE with moustache twiriling.

24 minutes ago, Goshiu said:

I always liked the Kolat in theory. They originally seemed like a Yakuza/Kabukimono/Triad stand in. I think they just took the secret society plus magic and took it too far. The philosophy of the Kolat sounds nice but in actuality they are just a group of self important gangsters trying to get rich. I loved that idea but the execution was ham fisted.

If you look at the cards that existed before the Way of the Merchant it kinda backed up the idea as them being a shadowy criminal orginization. Kolat assassin could kill a low chi card and the Kolat master meant he was part of the conspiracy; both cards in game were super expensive for their effect showing coin for shady effect. They also had cards like Kolat oyabun which tied into the gangster look of the Kolat.

With a reboot and changes I hope the Kolat get more gangsters with a philosophy as an excuse and less SPECTRE with moustache twiriling.

I always enjoyed the Kolat as an adversary for the RPG (and yes they were used somewhat poorly in the CCG days being a sort of shadowy every threat as often as not).

That said the idea that they use the criminal organization as a front for their primary goal always worked for me. The idea that the rank and file don't know the overall goals of the organization and are just in it for the money while the Masters are using them to undermine the institutions that they plan to supplant with their own ideals, at the same time grooming selected individuals for future positions and slowly insinuating their agenda into their everyday thinking so that when they are ready they can be brought more fully into the conspiracy makes a fair amount of sense to me.

In O5R I believe it was a matter of execution and not concept. I think the Kolat can be done very well and can add an interesting wrinkle into the story. As Gunichi points out it would greatly help if FFG were more focused in their portrayal of the Kolat this time around. The idea that a subset of humanity still resents being subjugated by the kami I think is not all that unreasonable. That people looked down on like merchants and people from lower social standing (or even people with more philosophical motivations) would band together to create a counter balance to the established authority is in my opinion a great place to explore in the setting. I do think it would be better if the Kolat was more analogous to the real world Yakuza and they focused them that way. I feel like that was the original intent, and then they became all these other things.

Describing rationalism as inherently Western is kind of... blergh.

Confucianism was pretty big on the whole "gods and spirits going to do what they're gonna do, you focus on this world, what you can control."

You have things like The Perfect Land Sect in the setting now, based on an actual historical movement, pushing for egalitarianism and a reduction in spiritual strictures on the population. It sounds like for the most part you object to the way the Kolat was used rather than their concept.

The Kolat are literally the Illuminati transplanted into Rokugan.

Seriously. I'm not even being hyperbolic.

14 minutes ago, SpookyElectric said:

The Kolat are literally the Illuminati transplanted into Rokugan.

Seriously. I'm not even being hyperbolic.

And your point was?

I never understood the Kolat. In the rpg they can make cool bad guys on a small scale.

But either way I'm sure if this story team uses them I will be a fan of them. They're making the Phoenix a too 3 clan for me, and they weren't a top 7 before.

I like the concept of the Kolat. This criminal organization that secretly is trying to undermine Rokugans social structure.

The main issue lies with focusing their place in the world so they aren't doing as everything at the same time like the last time. This, I believe, FFG will consider if they are thinking of including them for this timeline.

As mainly a RPG-player, I agree with Schoomzies and would like them to return because they make good antagonists for the characters to confront and story fodder.

16 minutes ago, MirumotoOrashu said:

I like the concept of the Kolat. This criminal organization that secretly is trying to undermine Rokugans social structure.

The main issue lies with focusing their place in the world so they aren't doing as everything at the same time like the last time. This, I believe, FFG will consider if they are thinking of including them for this timeline.

As mainly a RPG-player, I agree with Schoomzies and would like them to return because they make good antagonists for the characters to confront and story fodder.

I'd actually prefer if they're just the largest organized criminal group in the Empire, rather than some huge, nebulous conspiracy that not even a direct assault by the Great Clans can eliminate. It'd make it easier to use them as fodder in the RPG, and they'd make sense as neutral Characters, -Attachments and -Events in the LCG, being deniable proxies for attacking enemies.

Think about it; the Yasuki are already using the Yoritomo to rob the Crane. Why not make use of similar groups while you're at it? It'd also make more sense how they've stayed alive for so long; since they're not a threat to the very soul and fabric of the Empire, the Emerald Magistrates are the only people they have to worry about avoiding.

And, if you feel compelled to include actual Samurai in the organization, and have them try to usurp the social order... why not Ronin? They're outcast Samurai in need of a support network, which the Kolat can provide, and if they wish to reclaim their more comfortable life from before falling from grace... well, the newly re-instated Lord Whatsit might be willing to look the other way when the occasional shipment of valuables goes missing.

2 hours ago, Waywardpaladin said:

Describing rationalism as inherently Western is kind of... blergh.

Confucianism was pretty big on the whole "gods and spirits going to do what they're gonna do, you focus on this world, what you can control."

It usually pings to me as more materialist than rationalist. And also kind of sort of but not really anarchist -- they're too hierarchical to actually be anarchist, but they want to tear down the existing social order, without offering any clear vision of what (other than "an Emperor who isn't descended from a Kami") they would put in its place.

But I'm with Gunichi. I just don't like the Kolat (as originally executed; who knows what, if anything, they'll be in this iteration), never found them interesting, would not cry if they went away entirely. The Perfect Land Sect interests me, because I can follow the logic of what they believe, why they believe it, how the sect spreads, and what responses the clans make to it. The Kolat was the magical but anti-supernatural political criminal philosophical ancient totally secret but Empire-spanning all-singing all-dancing ultimately all-useless conspiracy of Rokugan, and just . . . bleh.

I love Yasuki Taka so anything that makes him a more prominent character is great in my book. I kinda feel like if he was in the Kolat right now (in the current continuity) he would have brought it up in his internal dialogue in his previous story. Feels like if ever he needed to explore his Kolat contacts it would be at that point.

I don't mind the return of an Illuminati-like organization in Rokugan. I do get concerned because you usually want your actors to have agency in their stories. Reestablishing an effective illuminati in the background can (if written poorly) rob them of that agency (much like too much talk of prophecy or destiny could bog down a good fantasy story). I don't mind the idea that the Kolat can be both a high minded philosophical mission for it's members and a tool for greedy and power hungry individuals. I think that disunity can help make the organization seem less effective and therefore less problematic story wise.

2 minutes ago, phillos said:

I love Yasuki Taka so anything that makes him a more prominent character is great in my book. I kinda feel like if he was in the Kolat right now (in the current continuity) he would have brought it up in his internal dialogue in his previous story. Feels like if ever he needed to explore his Kolat contacts it would be at that point.

I don't mind the return of an Illuminati-like organization in Rokugan. I do get concerned because you usually want your actors to have agency in their stories. Reestablishing an effective illuminati in the background can (if written poorly) rob them of that agency (much like too much talk of prophecy or destiny could bog down a good fantasy story). I don't mind the idea that the Kolat can be both a high minded philosophical mission for it's members and a tool for greedy and power hungry individuals. I think that disunity can help make the organization seem less effective and therefore less problematic story wise.

Depends, there was nothing in his first appearance that would naturally lead to him outing himself as a Kolat, even in an internal monologue. A little more in the Mantis alliance story, although again given how events progressed in a generally favorable manner there isn't necessarily any reason why he would have focused on any potentially heretical thoughts.

There was nothing in the original storyline hinting that Taka was a Kolat for a long time. He was only revealed as such well into Hidden Emperor.

34 minutes ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

There was nothing in the original storyline hinting that Taka was a Kolat for a long time. He was only revealed as such well into Hidden Emperor.

That was one of the problems with the Kolat.

A lot of its members, like Taka, weren’t originally written as Kolat, but when the organization appeared, suddenly they were members, their stories rewritten, and they had to invent lame excuses for things that had happened and made no sense for a Kolat member.

That’s why they came with the “Sleeper agents” and the brainwashing.

I could be mistaken, but I think the same happened with Kage. He wasn’t a Kolat originally, but when they decided he was, they retconned his wife’s death as a Kolat plan.

3 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

That was one of the problems with the Kolat.

A lot of its members, like Taka, weren’t originally written as Kolat, but when the organization appeared, suddenly they were members, their stories rewritten, and they had to invent lame excuses for things that had happened and made no sense for a Kolat member.

That’s why they came with the “Sleeper agents” and the brainwashing.

I could be mistaken, but I think the same happened with Kage. He wasn’t a Kolat originally, but when they decided he was, they retconned his wife’s death as a Kolat plan.

Kage was the result of a story prize so I wouldn't put that much into the ret-con there. As to Taka before his Kolat reveal in O5R we hadn't really seen anything about him from a story perspective that would have indicated either way. He was a Crab Clan Willy Trader who gave them an economic boost and that was about it.

The Unicorn infested with Kolat was the odd one, but was based on deck lists that were prevalent at the time where Unicorn were running high numbers of Kolat Master and Assassin cards due to having one of the stronger economic engines with a very high Gold Production stronghold