On 7/23/2018 at 8:28 AM, Ambaryerno said:

There wasn't a single line of dialogue that established Vader and Kylo Ren were pilots in ANH (remember, at the time the original film was first released we had no idea Vader and Anakin were one and the same) and before TLJ, either. Yet no one complains about them hopping in TIE fighters. Rey at least had dialogue in TFA establishing she had flight experience in an atmosphere. That's no more than we learned about Luke's past flight experience in the original film (who went from T-16s on Tatooine to an X-wing, and it was only established by the EU LONG after the original film was released that the T-16 was an X-wing trainer).

Villains are supposed to be "Mary Sues" and all powerful beings though (Or on their way to be one) !!!! Yes, I hold Villains to different standards. (And I even hold mentor roles, like Obi Wan to different standards than the protagonist of the story.) You want to see these people defeated partially because they have these traits Mary Sue-ish traits. Villains should always have the upper hand in a decently written story. The one which the underdog has to defeat. No one wants to see a protagonist play in "god mode" through out a movie. Which Rey is practically doing.

On 8/7/2018 at 4:12 PM, Sekac said:

???

Yes, everyone knows the single relevant indicator of movie quality is box office sales.

It's weird how the single relevant indicator was previously user reviews on Rotten Tomatoes until it was clear that a certain minority of toxic fans put a bunch of effort into tanking the score.

It turns out that Empire Strikes back is empirically the worst Star Wars movie ever made according the box office performance=quality idea.

The best Star Wars movies in order are:

1) TFA

2) TLJ

3) RO

4) TPM

5) RotS

6) ANH

7) AotC

8 ) RotJ

9) Solo

10) ESB

The matter is finally settled. The sequel trilogy is easily the best, the prequels are the second best, and the OT is the worst trilogy.

You forgot to adjust for inflation.

2 hours ago, Jadotch said:

Villains are supposed to be "Mary Sues" and all powerful beings though (Or on their way to be one) !!!! Yes, I hold Villains to different standards. (And I even hold mentor roles, like Obi Wan to different standards than the protagonist of the story.) You want to see these people defeated partially because they have these traits Mary Sue-ish traits. Villains should always have the upper hand in a decently written story. The one which the underdog has to defeat. No one wants to see a protagonist play in "god mode" through out a movie. Which Rey is practically doing.

That is a very good point. DBZ wouldn't of ever been a thing if Goku started off as a Super Sayian and smack Raditz, Vegeta, Freiza around as they made appearances.

1 hour ago, Zarovichx said:

That is a very good point. DBZ wouldn't of ever been a thing if Goku started off as a Super Sayian and smack Raditz, Vegeta, Freiza around as they made appearances.

And yet the MCU is incredibly popular. A cast of Mary Sues casually dispatching enemies by the horde. I'd also point at the 50+ year long success of the James Bond franchise.

It seems people don't usually have problems with Mary Sue protagonists...

I wonder what's different about Rey ?‍♂️

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

I'd also point at the 50+ year long success of the James Bond franchise.

I wonder what's different about Rey ?‍♂️

If MI6 had recruited a teenager with no discernible formal training or military background to be their top 00 agent, basically picked some young random whippersnapper up off the street who then went on to immediiately excel at every situation they were put in and save the world, then you might have a halfway worthwhile point there. Might.

Maybe look to the Kingsman franchise instead? (mind you, Eggsy actually gets plenty of training and assistance, so that comparison doesn't really fly either)

9 minutes ago, Sekac said:

And yet the MCU is incredibly popular. A cast of Mary Sues casually dispatching enemies by the horde. I'd also point at the 50+ year long success of the James Bond franchise.

James Bond to a certain extent I can see, due to his personality and often sleeping with the woman and saving the day all the time. The MCU, I just don't see it really with any of them unless you want to cite some examples.

2 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

If MI6 had recruited a teenager with no discernible formal training or military background to be their top 00 agent, basically picked some young random whippersnapper up off the street who then went on to immediiately excel at every situation they were put in and save the world, then you might have a halfway worthwhile point there. Might.

James Bond is capable of doing everything. Sure he probably has a military background, and he's highly trained.

He can perform every extreme sport there is, and operate any vehicle perfectly the first time, from jetpacks, to gyrocopters, to cars that turn into submarines.

I was never in the military but I'm positive none of those things are covered.

He also automatically knows how to operate every gadget Q gives him with no training whatsoever required. In fact, he usually interrupts Q with a line that amounts to "I require no training to use this" or he just demonstrates that by operating it correctly--much to Q's frustration.

He is also literally irresistible to women. Even the ones that want to resist him find themselves unable to struggle for long.

In Skyfall, hes tasked with protecting M. Instead, he uses her as bait, the bad guys show up, kill M, and he gets PROMOTED. Sure he failed his mission as badly as anybody possibly could, but consequences aren't a thing for JB.

So yes, I think I might have a point.

1 hour ago, Animewarsdude said:

James Bond to a certain extent I can see, due to his personality and often sleeping with the woman and saving the day all the time. The MCU, I just don't see it really with any of them unless you want to cite some examples.

1) Ironman invents a technology that nobody else can figure out by using scraps in a cave, is an excellent combatant despite no combat training of any kind, is also irresistible to women, and has time to invent anything he needs (and has the foresight to already have invented it before it was necessary).

2) Captain America is described as "the perfect soldier." Because he's perfect. In every. Single. Way.

3) Thor is a god.

More?

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

1) Ironman invents a technology that nobody else can figure out by using scraps in a cave, is an excellent combatant despite no combat training of any kind, is also irresistible to women, and has time to invent anything he needs (and has the foresight to already have invented it before it was necessary).

Stark's main asset is his brain, and is offset by pretty much all of his poor decision making, his character defects, and generally getting under people's skin. The film sets up that he has a background in designing stuff and is a genius in the first 5 to 10 minutes of the film. He isn't really all that great of a combatant, more like he is rolling into town with a tank vs WW1 infantry, when he goes up against people with higher skill or powers he tends to start getting beat down. And not really, its more just the people attracted to his wealth and fame than him, and both Pepper Potts and Black Widow sort of just eye roll him off a fair bit, even if Pepper ends up dating/marrying him.

In Iron Man he develops 3 suits of armor, each an improved rendition of the last. Then moving forward it is him improving his armors to create the best armor until Avengers happens and he is obsessively creating armors to deal with the looming threat of Thanos.

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

2) Captain America is described as "the perfect soldier." Because he's perfect. In every. Single. Way.

Cap is probably the closest to a Gary Stu, but he does suffer for his righteousness. By doing the right thing he loses his best friend, he loses out on the love of his life, is displaced in the future and has issues relating to others there, finds out how evil can worm its way into the government and what he believes in, can not settle down to live a normal life and needs conflict/war, and ended up as an enemy of the country that he 'sacrificed' his life for.

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

3) Thor is a god.

And a fallible one. He is brash, impulsive, and cocky. He is forced to learn humility and earn the right to use his powers again, he loses his mother, his girlfriend, father, sister, homeworld, brother, friends, and his people. Sure he might be strong but he suffers a good deal and has to overcome many great struggles much in the same way that Hercules had to.

I know your whole point is to say that other characters are Mary Sues/Gary Stus to try and end the debate about Rey but so far she hasn't been portrayed the best. For that I blame writing, and authors having to explain away stuff in novelizations rather than in the films themselves. That doesn't mean I'm calling Rey out as a Mary Sue, I'm waiting until Episode 9 comes out to make my final decision on her and that matter.

18 hours ago, Sekac said:

2) Captain America is described as "the perfect soldier." Because he's perfect. In every. Single. Way.

This guy? The guy that got beat up by bullies in the beginning? That was highly dependent on Bucky in the beginning?

Compared to Rey's first fight?



It is all about the Heroe's Journey my friend.

Imagine if Steve Rodgers was able to beat up the bullies in the beginning, and able to surpass the other Soldiers in their training before he took the serum?It would greatly diminish the Steve Rodgers character. This is what Rey is.

@Ambaryerno

Regarding Vader and Ren hopping in TIE's and flying around without establishing they are great pilots beforehand;

I wouldn't call that a problem. Vader is basically shooting fish in a barrel in the Death Star trench. Even outside of that, it's not unreasonable to accept that their roles in their respective organizations might have at least entitled them to some flight training. By that same logic did we need the backstory in Star Wars to establish all the rest of the pilots at the end of the movie could fly a ship or could we just say "eh, whatever it's fine"?

Neither Vader or Ren do anything particularly nutty in their ships, and don't forget, they have The Force on their side.

With Rey, I guess the problem is she's never left her crappy situation and has only been seen operating a speeder, but in a space-faring universe, I don't think it's too unreasonable to imagine she could intuit the basic operation of the Falcon. She's even portrayed as being a little unsure of whether she can make it work, and has a very ungraceful takeoff. You could somewhat justify her skill of navigating the ruins of the Star Destroyer since she was seen in it (I'm pretty sure it was the same ship) earlier, scavenging for parts, and even if it's a different wrecked ship, it's also not unreasonable that she was in THAT one at some point getting parts to trade for food.

@Jadotch

Effective villains for the story aren't required to be Mary Sue's, they're just setup to be in a superior position to the protagonist at whatever the conflict of the story revolves around.

So in TFA, Ren is more than able to shut Rey down in seconds when he paralyzes her mid-way through the movie. It's implied, at least the way I interpreted the scene, that when he probes her mind back on the ship, that he's kind of unlocked something, which enables her to push back enough to freak him out.

Later, when they fight in the forest, she's able to hold him off and prevail because Ren was just shot in the gut by a gun that basically turns normal people into soup, as seen with Han's comical nowcaster shots earlier in the movie. Ren is literally bleeding out in the snow and limping, so probably not in peak shape. Also he's established as being emotionally torn over his situation, moreso over killing Han just prior, so he's operating on petulant rage, rather than calmly thinking it through and trying to stop Rey like he did before. He's doubly out for blood when he see's Finn, an actual traitor to his regime standing there too.

But take any memorable villain and they usually have character in themselves.

Johnny in The Karate Kid is a better fighter than Daniel, so Daniel needs to train to beat him. Johnny was also ready to turn his ace-degenerate lifestyle around but fighting over a girl, and bad moral lessons from his sensei, warped his perspective. He's redeemed at the end when Kreese wants him to win by fighting dirty and Johnny's had enough. More on that in the beginning of Karate Kid 2 and Cobra Kai.

Even a schlock horror movie villain like the Graboids in Tremors aren't really Mary Sue's, and that's why that movie has a cult following. They'll certainly kill a person in a one-on-one battle, so the characters have to figure on how they're going to outwit the beasts and escape the valley they're basically trapped in. People get eaten, Graboids get blown up and it's perfectly enjoyable. They're smart enough to start seeing through some of the ploys, and that's where the tension comes from.

@Cleardave

Fair enough. I think the main point I was getting at, you can introduce a villain with whatever power/skill set you wish without too much of an explanation. (It is nice, but not needed.) Antagonists are often static in character (yes there are exceptions), they are not required to grow for decent storytelling. They are often a reference to show what the protagonist has to overcome.

8 minutes ago, Jadotch said:

@Cleardave

Fair enough. I think the main point I was getting at, you can introduce a villain with whatever power/skill set you wish without too much of an explanation. (It is nice, but not needed.) Antagonists are often static in character (yes there are exceptions), they are not required to grow for decent storytelling. They are often a reference to show what the protagonist has to overcome.

For example, the very large number of notches Rey carved into the metal to demonstrate how long she’s been abandoned on a hostile and unforgiving planet where her nominal caregiver (shown in a flashback to when she was a mere child) has also clearly been exploiting her as labor?

Was that the kind of adversity a protagonist has to overcome, in your opinion?

And, not to sandbag this further but, well, why not right? Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark is frequently cited as the perfect movie. And how are we introduced to the main character? He bull whips the pistol out of someone’s hand when that person has the drop on Indy! And then demonstrates extreme levels of expertise in looting a sacred relic. Just saying, if it’s good enough for one of the best movies of all time’s main characters, why is it a problem now?

46 minutes ago, Derrault said:

And, not to sandbag this further but, well, why not right? Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark is frequently cited as the perfect movie. And how are we introduced to the main character? He bull whips the pistol out of someone’s hand when that person has the drop on Indy! And then demonstrates extreme levels of expertise in looting a sacred relic. Just saying, if it’s good enough for one of the best movies of all time’s main characters, why is it a problem now?

Did Indy get the Golden Idol? No, he lost it, just escaping with his life. (It also demonstrated his fear of snakes!) With all that skill he was outwitted by the other archeologist in the end. Again, it introduces him losing to a rival. Thank you.

On a side note: I do think the First Act of the Force Awakens is very well done. It is the 3 following acts that ruin the movie. (I really don't know why there are 4 acts in it? To re-introduce Han Solo maybe?)

3 hours ago, Jadotch said:

This guy? The guy that got beat up by bullies in the beginning? That was highly dependent on Bucky in the beginning?

Compared to Rey's first fight?



It is all about the Heroe's Journey my friend.

Imagine if Steve Rodgers was able to beat up the bullies in the beginning, and able to surpass the other Soldiers in their training before he took the serum?It would greatly diminish the Steve Rodgers character. This is what Rey is.

Just to be clear. A person that is perfect in every way (bravery, morality, loyalty, etc) but is physically diminutive is not a Mary Sue because they are perfection minus 1.

But Rey is a Mary Sue because she happens to not be physically diminutive? Her flaws don't count because she is better physically than Rodgers?

99% perfect isn't a Mary Sue, but 1% perfect could be a Mary Sue, as long as that 1% they've got is the same 1% the 99% character is missing (for the 1st act of the 1st movie)? Am I understanding your logic correctly?

2 hours ago, Jadotch said:

...you can introduce a villain with whatever power/skill set you wish without too much of an explanation. (It is nice, but not needed.) Antagonists are often static in character (yes there are exceptions), they are not required to grow for decent storytelling. They are often a reference to show what the protagonist has to overcome.

I'd slightly disagree with you in that you want some king of development, if not growth, per se. If your villain has a personality, a motive, etc, you can make for some great interactions with the protagonist.

A relatively "blank" villain, like Michael Myers in Halloween doesn't really develop. Instead, he's portrayed as a force of nature, but what makes him effective is that he's silent and methodical, and the victims don't even know he's out there. You can generate suspense from all of this, but at the end of the day, we still got that intro that shows him as a boy, killing his sister so we get some semblance of what's going on in his head. Disregard sequels, naturally as they shoehorn in any manner of developments as an excuse for making more movies.

But I'd say that antagonists that are largely "people" need something to them to make them more interesting, which of course enhances the story.

A movie like Twister has a literal force of nature in the tornados, but just the same, Cary Elwes plays a rival storm chaser to provide that human element for us to look at. Bill Paxton's team ultimately is trying to beat them to the punch at mapping the big tornado with their sensors, which they succeed at, despite nearly dying in the process. Roll credits, instant classic is made.

2 hours ago, Jadotch said:

Did Indy get the Golden Idol? No, he lost it, just escaping with his life. (It also demonstrated his fear of snakes!) With all that skill he was outwitted by the other archeologist in the end. Again, it introduces him losing to a rival. Thank you.

On a side note: I do think the First Act of the Force Awakens is very well done. It is the 3 following acts that ruin the movie. (I really don't know why there are 4 acts in it? To re-introduce Han Solo maybe?)

You're bang-on in that assessment.

He also didn't just cruise through the whole temple and calmly walk out of there. What you're seeing is a subtle comedic payoff to the setup of this stoic badass who cruises through the jungle, messes up a dude trying to kill him, walks through all those tarantulas like it ain't $h1t, strolls up to the idol and swaps it out with the bag of sand.

Then he triggers the various traps and bumbles his way out of there, only to be double crossed by Dr Octopus, narrowly makes it out while outrunning a boulder, only to get the idol jacked by Belloq, then being forced to flee from an angry tribe, only to barely make it to his plane and escape, only to find a filthy snake in his seat.

I wouldn't call that the actions of a hyper-capable guy. It sets up that Indy and Belloq are old rivals, and that Indy is a blue-collar, get your hands dirty type, while Belloq is an elite type that would rather get other people to do the heavy lifting for him.

Later in the movie we get a great Belloq moment where Marion (who is earlier established as a raging alcoholic that can drink a land whale under the table) tries to get Belloq drunk so she can escape. Plot Twist; the booze is his family label and he's an even bigger drunk then she is!

We see Indy digging for the Well of Souls while Belloq gets hammered in his tent, only to swoop in and take, yet again, what Indy has worked so hard to acquire.

In the end, Belloq is defeated by this arrogance, as he is clearly not as respectful of the Ark, or as learned. You can imagine him as the kind of University professor that is happy to count his tenure money while some schmuck TA's do all his grading, which is most professors, but they're usually doing actual research in something else, not getting drunk while people do the research for them.

6 hours ago, Jadotch said:

Did Indy get the Golden Idol? No, he lost it, just escaping with his life. (It also demonstrated his fear of snakes!) With all that skill he was outwitted by the other archeologist in the end. Again, it introduces him losing to a rival. Thank you.

On a side note: I do think the First Act of the Force Awakens is very well done. It is the 3 following acts that ruin the movie. (I really don't know why there are 4 acts in it? To re-introduce Han Solo maybe?)

Those are examples of bad luck, not Indy being incompetent.

It’s well established in the dialogue that Forrestal was very good (Indy, by virtue of recognizing the spear trap is demonstrably better), and Indy does escape with the Idol; the loss is due to Deus Ex Machina in the form of Belloc (events outside Indy’s control). As for the fear of snakes, it’s a throwaway gag in the movie which carries some extra humor when juxtaposed with his being totally nonplussed when encountering very large spiders earlier in the temple. (Jacque even calls him a big baby for being afraid of a snake, the height of irony considering the harrowing experience Jones went through unflappably).

Rey too is defeated by her enemy, she literally gets knocked unconscious and carried away by Kylo Ren on their first meeting and again at their second (recall, Finn intervenes long enough for her to regain consciousness, alone she would have surely perished). Kylo well outclasses her in the movie it’s his emotional imbalance and motivation to turn her that result in both her survival and eventual victory.

Beyond the obvious power differential, the character distinctions are that she’s confident from having been forced to raise herself effectively alone since childhood on a planet where failure means death, and he’s basically lived in the lap of luxury his entire life, and is completely lacking in self confidence (see: his constant bravado).

@cleardave Belloc is repeatedly shown to be the inferior when it comes to archeological skill/deduction, his only strength is having the backing of a state (tribe) in both encounters. They only even get to see the Ark because Indy relents and doesn’t destroy it. In effect, Indy won, and even after allowing Belloc the chance to open the ark, Indy had the foresight to protect both himself and Marion.

In the Marion/Belloc drinking contest she succeeds at drinking him into incapacity, she’s only stopped by the timely arrival of the man in Black.

On 8/30/2018 at 7:19 PM, Animewarsdude said:

And a fallible one. He is brash, impulsive, and cocky. He is forced to learn humility and earn the right to use his powers again, he loses his mother, his girlfriend, father, sister, homeworld, brother, friends, and his people.

Other than the symbolism of learning humility and earning Mjolnir back, does Thor change in any perceptable way? No. The plot says he's humble now, he gets his hammer back, and he continues to be the exact same character for the remainder of the film and the next 4 he's in (have not seen infinity war yet, but I have a hard time believing he's anything other than the same character he has always been and never deviated from). I could be wrong though. It's possible he's less brash, impulsive, and cocky in that than he was in his first 5 films. I doubt it though.

On 8/30/2018 at 7:19 PM, Animewarsdude said:

he loses his mother, his girlfriend, father, sister, homeworld, brother, friends, and his people.

Rey loses her mother, father, later the idealized form of her parents, homeworld, her new father figure (Han), her mentor (Luke), and most of the people in the cause she chooses to join.

If losses make a character not a Mary Sue, then Rey is definitely not a Mary Sue.

16 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Other than the symbolism of learning humility and earning Mjolnir back, does Thor change in any perceptable way? No. The plot says he's humble now, he gets his hammer back, and he continues to be the exact same character for the remainder of the film and the next 4 he's in (have not seen infinity war yet, but I have a hard time believing he's anything other than the same character he has always been and never deviated from). I could be wrong though. It's possible he's less brash, impulsive, and cocky in that than he was in his first 5 films. I doubt it though.

He does become less brash by the end of the first movie considering at the start he was willing to go start trouble with the Ice Giants for little more than some fun and glory, whereas by the end of the film he is more dutiful and takes to his role as a protector of the nine realms which we see in Avengers with him getting Loki and in Thor the Dark World with him trying to restore order with that fight at the beginning of the film. Ragnarok shifts his character to be less serious and more jokey, and likely will to an extent be the way he acts moving forward, perhaps with the idea being his humor is meant to cover up his loss. Infinity War is really good though, requires watching the other films for set up but good, and he definitely is driven by a goal.

20 minutes ago, Sekac said:

If losses make a character not a Mary Sue, then Rey is definitely not a Mary Sue.

And yet, I didn't call her a Mary Sue, but at the same point calling everyone else a Mary Sue/Gary Stu to say she isn't isn't much of an argument. The way I see it, she has issues with being poorly written, specifically in regards to her skill set as opposed to Anakin's cringy dialogue from the Prequels.

She is tough and can fight people as seen on Jakku. I can accept that, she lived her life on a rough world though I'd imagine that would make her more jaded and less trusting rather than rather naive and optimistic. She can fly the Falcon through daring maneuvers, I find that a little head scratching but can rationalize it due to her time spent working in the wrecks knowing its layout. She beat Kylo on Starkiller base, again it is something I can accept since Kylo was wounded. Though am I the only one to find it a bit funny that she begins to win when Kylo talks to her about the force as if she was like 'oh yea, I can do that!'?

Her force powers, that is where I think the main crux of the argument is for her, the fact she never trained or worked to earn them but was rather given the powers due to Kylo which just feels like something more out of the Matrix than a series based on the Hero's Journey and having to earn strength and overcome challenges and the like. What makes it worse is that we have Luke and Anakin to compare her to, and they both had to train to get their powers, granted mostly off screen. But it does bring up 'why doesn't she need to train to get her powers too?'. She just goes from not knowing the force is anything more than a story to being able to be stronger in the force than Luke was ever shown to be in the span of a week. I don't like this, I want to see her train and the like or baring that would have liked a time skip between TFA and TLJ to make it more believable that she trained with Luke during that time.

Also, not a fan of how they show her so willing to jump to the darkside and not have her face any repercussions. She is warned to not go towards it, goes towards it and really suffers nothing for the act. And considering the darkside being the easy path you'd think she'd get some answers out of it even if they were fake, or being a survivalist would find it useful. Its just an interesting point they could have explored that gets tossed right aside.

Then add in that in TFA she was able to get out of pretty much every single situation herself and her only real 'rescue' is getting off Starkiller base at the end but had Finn and the others not come for her I generally believe she would have been able to escape by herself. Contrast that to Luke who needs a fair bit of saving in the OT. I don't want to see her lose for the sake of losing or being helpless, I just want the main characters working together and helping save each other and relying on each other. That being something that TLJ suffered from by splitting the party so much that they don't interact near til the final moments of the film.

Shooting 3 Ties the first time that she manned the Falcon's guns was a bit excessive too. One tie, is a good shot, two is a lucky one, three in a single blaster bolt is a bit much. And I say that as someone who felt that Poe's scene in TFA with him shooting fight down after fighter was a bit much.

To put it bluntly, thus far, I don't much find her character all that compelling and that her abilities were rushed or a bit unbelievable based off what we've seen on screen. All of which I blame on the writing, and poor overall planning for the trilogy and the story they want to tell with it. If you don't agree with me, that's fine, its just my opinion afterall. I'm open to having my mind changed if more material comes out just like how Clone Wars made Anakin likeable for me, but at the moment, not a real fan of her despite Daisy Ridley's performance.

8 hours ago, Derrault said:

@cleardave Belloc is repeatedly shown to be the inferior when it comes to archeological skill/deduction, his only strength is having the backing of a state (tribe) in both encounters. They only even get to see the Ark because Indy relents and doesn’t destroy it. In effect, Indy won, and even after allowing Belloc the chance to open the ark, Indy had the foresight to protect both himself and Marion.

In the Marion/Belloc drinking contest she succeeds at drinking him into incapacity, she’s only stopped by the timely arrival of the man in Black.

Indy is the more passionate academic, yes, but Belloq being able to best him by way of his resources and connections is what makes him superior to Indy (at the onset) by way of getting results, which is to say, Belloq get the idol, Indy comes back to America with a handful of lesser artifacts to sell to the museum.

Belloq exploits Indy's hardworking and deduction to cherry pick the Ark. I'd have to watch it again, but doesn't Belloq, who is presumably doing this at the behest of Hitler, take the Ark somewhere else to open it? Like the presumption was that he was going to try and harness the power for himself after swindling the Germans into funding and backing that whole project?

In any case, in one cerebral matter he does best Indy in a matter of wits over calling Indy's bluff about destroying the Ark. He talks him out of blowing it up and captures him.

All of this is to say that Belloq is a fleshed out antagonist to Indy, with all the blabbering about being two sides of the same coin, etc etc. The reason why it's so satisfying to see Belloq and the rest of them get killed horribly by the Ark (political history aside) is that they've just stomped on Indy's hard work the whole movie and got their comeuppance.

So I think we agree that we value Indy's character more than Belloq's by way of how they conduct themselves, which is good because we're supposed to be rooting for Indy the whole time.

At least Indy didn't "win" in the end by illegal contact to the face like in The Karate Kid. I mean, I love that movie, but when you stop and think about it, Johnny lost, not because Daniel beat him, but because the referee didn't make the right call? Sounds like a good super villain origin story or something.

Of course that's all addressed in Cobra Kai, but then we're going really off-topic on that one.

5 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

And yet, I didn't call her a Mary Sue, but at the same point calling everyone else a Mary Sue/Gary Stu to say she isn't isn't much of an argument.

Considering how many times you and I have replied to each other, you ought to know that isn't my entire argument. If you'd like me to repeat arguments as to why she's not, I can do that, but I'd really rather just encourage you to re-read this thread and others.

I'm simply pointing out that Mary Sue characters are not inherently a problem with a movie. People that dislike Rey's character because she's a Mary Sue likely have double standards. This Mary Sue is no issue, but that one? It ruins the movie. Kind of weak, IMO. There are reasons to dislike Rey, and you've done a fine job of stating yours. But being a Mary Sue is simply not a good reason, even if it is true, which I don't think it is.

5 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

Her force powers, that is where I think the main crux of the argument is for her, the fact she never trained or worked to earn them but was rather given the powers due to Kylo which just feels like something more out of the Matrix than a series based on the Hero's Journey and having to earn strength and overcome challenges and the like

I agree her character is a poor execution on the Hero's journey arc, but I don't really care. Not every hero needs to go on the hero's journey to be believable. "We need a 3rd hero's journey because it's Star Wars" is a weird argument to me. When they do the next trilogy, should that be another hero's journey? How often should Star Wars re-tell the same story with different characters? Why would that be more compelling?

As for her powers, Kylo didn't give her her powers. She had them, and they are enhanced by her connection to Kylo. This isn't a problem for me for 2 reasons.

1) Every Star Wars movie ever made has introduced new force powers. Continuing that tradition is fine.

2) It made me realize that the whole light side/dark side, bringing balance to the force is maybe more literal than we realized before. We assumed it was philosophical because the Jedi had a very philosophical approach to the force. It kind of reminds me of the end of BSG that many people hated. They'd been talking about God and angels and destiny throughout 4 seasons of the show, and people were surprised and upset that it turned out to be more literal than they assumed.

That's what I really enjoyed about TLJ, they're willing to explore new themes, as opposed to rehashing the same ones over and over. For too long the force has been framed in the light side seeks harmony, and dark side seeks power dichotomy. There's only so much you can do with that, and I'm glad they're tearing that down. The Jedi are gone. The Sith are dead. The force continues. It establishes its own equilibrium between light and dark and the Jedi, in their vanity, believed it was through their efforts that the force would be balanced, but that's foolish. It's like when we try to re-establish the equilibrium of an ecosystem here on earth. Every time we try, we screw it up further. Nature will eventually balance itself, it doesn't need our stewardship.

If they need to give us a concise hero's journey so they've got time to explore new territory, count me in.

On 9/1/2018 at 10:32 AM, Animewarsdude said:

Her force powers, that is where I think the main crux of the argument is for her, the fact she never trained or worked to earn them but was rather given the powers due to Kylo which just feels like something more out of the Matrix than a series based on the Hero's Journey and having to earn strength and overcome challenges and the like

You misunderstand or ignore what the OT, PT and ST taught us about using the force.

A huge part of it is believing in it, exactly like the Matrix. Luke was too old because he already learnt how the world works, and what is/isn‘t possible. Similar for Rey. But unlike Luke, Rey had seen the force in action and directly experienced it. Plus, with her lifelong training as scavenger with quickly understanding and taking apart new machines, it was comparatively easy for her to figure out how to use it. And she did even use the force three times (reverse kylo’s probe, mindtrick, pull saber) before she forgets about it during the stress of the fight.

She didn‘t have to believe the force exists as Luke had to. Rey had to learn that she is someone who plays an important role. She literally states both of those explicitly: „I‘m no one“, showing her disbelief, and „I need someone to show me my part in all this“, again expressing the doubt that she could play an important role.

So complaining about her not training to use the force misses the point entirely. She has another problem to overcome: her self doubt. (Edit: that‘s why she had to laugh at the final situation where she already believes and knows her role, but now demonstrates it to everyone by doing the most inane thing a jedi can do: lifting rocks. She understands what Yoda tried to teach Luke bach in ESB.)

Luke on the other hand was a cocky 20yo whose father was the best pilot in the galaxy, and who goes to save a beautiful princess and joins a rebellion. He has no self-doubt, he is over confident. Different problem, so he needed a different solution.

On 8/31/2018 at 9:42 PM, Derrault said:

Indy had the foresight to protect both himself and Marion.

It also helps there was some information Indy was privy to that was cut from the final film: The conversation with the translator Indy and Sallah visit originally had a line of dialogue establishing the reverse side of Marion's medallion — the side Belloq's reproduction was missing — had a warning against looking at the contents of the Ark. IIRC the same warnings are also actually in the Bible/Torah IRL. Basically both the medallion and the Bible were big warning labels that unless God specifically told you to, you didn't mess with the thing. Indy actually did his homework, which is why he and Marion were spared and had their restraints burned away, while Belloq and the Nazis got barbecued.

On 9/1/2018 at 9:09 AM, GreenDragoon said:

You misunderstand or ignore what the OT, PT and ST taught us about using the force.

A huge part of it is believing in it, exactly like the Matrix. Luke was too old because he already learnt how the world works, and what is/isn‘t possible. Similar for Rey. But unlike Luke, Rey had seen the force in action and directly experienced it. Plus, with her lifelong training as scavenger with quickly understanding and taking apart new machines, it was comparatively easy for her to figure out how to use it. And she did even use the force three times (reverse kylo’s probe, mindtrick, pull saber) before she forgets about it during the stress of the fight.

She didn‘t have to believe the force exists as Luke had to. Rey had to learn that she is someone who plays an important role. She literally states both of those explicitly: „I‘m no one“, showing her disbelief, and „I need someone to show me my part in all this“, again expressing the doubt that she could play an important role.

So complaining about her not training to use the force misses the point entirely. She has another problem to overcome: her self doubt. (Edit: that‘s why she had to laugh at the final situation where she already believes and knows her role, but now demonstrates it to everyone by doing the most inane thing a jedi can do: lifting rocks. She understands what Yoda tried to teach Luke bach in ESB.)

Luke on the other hand was a cocky 20yo whose father was the best pilot in the galaxy, and who goes to save a beautiful princess and joins a rebellion. He has no self-doubt, he is over confident. Different problem, so he needed a different solution.

God this post frakking gets it. You have no choice in this: We're friends now.

The point about Luke's confidence is an interesting one, and certainly fits what we see about him in Empire. His biggest challenge was, as Yoda put it, UNLEARNING what he has already learned. Rey's journey is different as she didn't have those same preconceptions getting in her way.