57 minutes ago, syrath said:

I would like to point out that a one spec character can be highly specialised in more than 2 types of encounters with the sort of xp you need to get FR 4 and the force skills to use with it, and just being a skill hound (beyond enhance ) requires buy in to a few force powers or specs. Influence:control upgrade and enhance being the two easiest. For the same xp I can create a character that can punch for over 20 dmg per punch and could repeat this on a second combat check made in the same round and have a bit more xp to have it be over 25 per punch that ignores soak (50 damage ignoring soak going to strain threshold, is going to drop anything short of vehcile scale)

Armorer /soresu /protector with the protect force ability with similar xp can block upwards of 20 dmg per attack, keeping that up for a round and each time the damage is reduced to zero the full amount is reflected back.

Misdirect - combat ability on a plane warden with 2 FR a decent set of armor and a good coercion skill is able to stagger his opponent, either because the opponent rolled 3 threat and were overbalanced or a despair and got the same or failing that use precision strike to cause a stagger.

Try lying to a Marshal with unrlenting skeptic and 5 ranks of vigilance and a healthy willpower.

it is possible to break the systen easily if you know how to stack probability in your favor , (the warden I describe above , I played and triggering overbalance was too easy eventually)

I agree. It is easy to break the system. But this particular issue isn't exactly the result of over-optimization. Any force build that includes more than a couple force dice can easily tap into it. I don't even plan my characters out in advance, only taking things that were relevant to last session or the recent story arc.

23 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Then no I don't think it's a problem, because your issue with the mechanics, that basically boils down to "A character with a lot of XP invested into skills, can do a lot of stuff really well"

Well, that's not what I'm asking at all. But I'm glad you are happy and I wish the best in all your gaming endeavors.

39 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Wrong. It is because the Improved Full Throttle allows you to use Full Throttle as a Maneuver that allows you to use Enhance with the one of the Piloting Control Upgrades with it. Not only that, but the Enhance Piloting Control Upgrades are combined checks . That means that the Force Power roll is done as part of the Piloting check. It doesn't replace it . So only one Action is being taken. What the rules do not allow you to do is use a talent that requires an Action to use, and a Force power (which also requires an Action to use) together because those each require their own actions. However, if the talent only requires a maneuver or is a passive talent, then yes, you can use a Force power with it because you are still only taking a single action, not multiple actions. Terrify requires its own action . That is why you can't use it with Influence . You can't take two actions in a single round, but you can take a maneuver and an action . The example I gave is a talent which only requires a Maneuver . That is the difference.

a maneuver is a maneuver , an action is an action in structured time you cannot combine the two they dont run concurrently, but sequentially. Feel free to ask the devs however but the two are completely separate things. a maneuver that calls for a skill check is covered during that maneuver , it doesnt allow you to then do the check as an action the check is done as part of the maneuver.

Just now, syrath said:

a maneuver is a maneuver , an action is an action in structured time you cannot combine the two they dont run concurrently, but sequentially. Feel free to ask the devs however but the two are completely separate things. a maneuver that calls for a skill check is covered during that maneuver , it doesnt allow you to then do the check as an action the check is done as part of the maneuver.

Yes, you can. What you can't do is take two actions in the same round. That is the only restriction the game has regarding Force use. You can use the Force as an action while also doing an Maneuver, just as you can move and attack at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive, nor are they necessarily sequential. They can be concurrent. There is nothing in the rules that says otherwise. All the rules say is that you cannot take two actions in the same round. There is nothing forbidding the use of the Force (an action) while also using a talent that only requires a maneuver.

On 7/18/2018 at 12:55 PM, syrath said:

yeah however an important thing to note that skill checks called for by talents cannot be enhanced this way. As an example, to benefit from force dice you are required to do an enhance force action, this in itself means you cannot use a talent that calls for a piloting check as either the talent is a maneuver or an action, both mean that you can't enhance. So while you may be able to replace your standard piloting check with an enhance piloting check, the pilot who puts the xp into the skill will do better with talents that call for skill checks, as part of their resolution.

Incorrect. You can use enhance on a pilot check to use a talent.

24 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Incorrect. You can use enhance on a pilot check to use a talent.

actually I give up on the devs I just trailed for the info on it and find that Sam Stewart answered both no on page 11 on the EOTE dev answered questions that you couldnt combine influence control , with the answer that no , influence:control couldnt be combined with scathing Tirade (which can be an action or a maneuver), someone re-asked the question more recently and was told ,Yes you could combine them, so depending on how they feel like answering you may get one or the other, personally Im going back to allowing it whenever a skill check of that sort is called for because it makes sense to me.

5 minutes ago, syrath said:

actually I give up on the devs I just trailed for the info on it and find that Sam Stewart answered both no on page 11 on the EOTE dev answered questions that you couldnt combine influence control , with the answer that no , influence:control couldnt be combined with scathing Tirade (which can be an action or a maneuver), someone re-asked the question more recently and was told ,Yes you could combine them, so depending on how they feel like answering you may get one or the other, personally Im going back to allowing it whenever a skill check of that sort is called for because it makes sense to me.

That's because Scathing Tirade is an action , that's why you can't use it with Influence.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That's because Scathing Tirade is an action , that's why you can't use it with Influence.

actually turns out im completely wrong (and so is this apparently), page 12 second last post. Fwiw the original post on page 11 set off a whole thread and a number of questions which backed up what I said.

3 minutes ago, syrath said:

actually turns out im completely wrong (and so is this apparently), page 12 second last post.

It may be that the Devs changed their earlier ruling because the Force power in question is being used specifically as part of a regular skill check.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It may be that the Devs changed their earlier ruling because the Force power in question is being used specifically as part of a regular skill check.

no idea however the same question was asked by the same person twice once in 2017 and once in 2018 , and while the answer in 2017 left me reeling and confused , because to me the talent asks for a skill check, and the abilities state eithout variance "when making a skill check...." so to originally you could use them with those skill checks, a whole thread ensued during which the devs confirmed that all the pikoting talenfs and other talents couodnt benefit from enhance or similarly worded abilities or talents , which to be honest really sucked for the peacekeeper and the pilots. This new answer asked in 2018 by the same person in exactly the same way is answered the complete opposite, and is completely contrary to the answer before. Regardless, the original way I ran it made more sense to me, which means if something calls for an out of turn resilience check, and the player has that upgrade they are getting force dice in my games from now on, unless I see otherwise in an errata.

I kinda get a little pissed when the devs cannot give a straight answer to the same question.

5 minutes ago, syrath said:

no idea however the same question was asked by the same person twice once in 2017 and once in 2018 , and while the answer in 2017 left me reeling and confused , because to me the talent asks for a skill check, and the abilities state eithout variance "when making a skill check...." so to originally you could use them with those skill checks, a whole thread ensued during which the devs confirmed that all the pikoting talenfs and other talents couodnt benefit from enhance or similarly worded abilities or talents , which to be honest really sucked for the peacekeeper and the pilots. This new answer asked in 2018 by the same person in exactly the same way is answered the complete opposite, and is completely contrary to the answer before. Regardless, the original way I ran it made more sense to me, which means if something calls for an out of turn resilience check, and the player has that upgrade they are getting force dice in my games from now on, unless I see otherwise in an errata.

I kinda get a little pissed when the devs cannot give a straight answer to the same question.

That's because, most of the piloting talents are actions . Only certain ones, such as Improved Full Throttle make them Maneuvers . That's the key. You can't take more than one action in a round. So, if a talent requires an action, and a Force Power requires an action, then you can't do both in that round since that would be two actions in a round.

9 minutes ago, syrath said:

I kinda get a little pissed when the devs cannot give a straight answer to the same question.

Maybe they'll have figured it out for 2e... ?

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That's because, most of the piloting talents are actions . Only certain ones, such as Improved Full Throttle make them Maneuvers . That's the key. You can't take more than one action in a round. So, if a talent requires an action, and a Force Power requires an action, then you can't do both in that round since that would be two actions in a round.

Um no. Action is not the problem.

1 hour ago, syrath said:

actually I give up on the devs I just trailed for the info on it and find that Sam Stewart answered both no on page 11 on the EOTE dev answered questions that you couldnt combine influence control , with the answer that no , influence:control couldnt be combined with scathing Tirade (which can be an action or a maneuver), someone re-asked the question more recently and was told ,Yes you could combine them, so depending on how they feel like answering you may get one or the other, personally Im going back to allowing it whenever a skill check of that sort is called for because it makes sense to me.

Yeah, I was the one who asked the questions, and after the responses I got I came to the conclusions of:

1.) Sam probably doesn't have a lot time to spend answering questions, and often times I am not sure if he even fully reads the question

2.) A surprising reality of game designers is they really don't play the games they develop very much, and often don't really know the rules all that well. Reminds of me an author for another RPG system who admitted on a forum that not only did he not play the game, he never had even played **any** roleplaying games, nor any desire to.

3.) That the simplest interpretation of the rules is usually the best course of action. If Force Dice were not supposed to be rolled along side talents that read "Make a XXX action and roll force dice equal to your force rating when making check YYY" then the talent should say it. Or the rules for general Force use should say it. And of course there is a caveat of what is "simple" for one person might be "complex" for another.

4.) I am not going to worry about asking Devs questions anymore and will just rule at my table what I think the best answer is. This game system, for good or bad, places a lot of burden on the GM, so I guess if it is up to me to make a ruling, that is what I will do from now on.