16 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That is only partially true. IF the talent is a maneuver , or if it a passive talent, then yes, you can use the Force with it. For instance, The Improved Full Throttle talent allows you to use Full Throttle as a maneuver . As such, you can use Enhance as part of your Piloting check for that roll since you're not taking two actions, but only one action, and one maneuver, which is perfectly allowable.

Up to you but the rules under the force-sensitive rules section on page 280 call that using a force power unless otherwise specified is an action, this includes combined power checks. This is also called out by repeated questions and answers from the devs as well. Example, using influence:control upgrade with Scathing Tirade a maneuver or action. Any of the piloting talents with Enhance etc

Ive questioned it myself because I was originally with you, however apparently RAW and RAI they don't work together. The only rules I can find which seem to collaborate this are as follows

page 280 - under Combined Force Power Checks - Some Force powers and Force Talents require the character to make a Force Power check that is a combined skill check. This generally represents the character using Force abilities in conjunction with other skills. It also comes into play when the character's force abilities may be opposed by the skills of his target.

When a character combines the Force power check with a STANDARD(*) skill check he would roll to make the "Force Power Check" with the dice roll to make the skill check.

moving to page 282 - The primary means by which a Force user manipulates the force is not UNCONSCIOUS....in any case , unless the power's description states otherwise using the power requires one action in structured time

So unless the wording of the force power says otherwise its going to need an action and conscious thought.

FWIW prior to my numerous questions as a result of seeing the devs answers on the forum, I would have agreed with you and have sat on that side of the argument, but apparently the wording of the talents and abilities that allow you to add force dice to skill checks doesnt override the requirement for needing an action. Example you can do a Scathing Tirade maneuver or a Scathing Tirade action , however neither of these would be an Influence power check action that would allow you to add force dice to the roll, similarly you cant use them out of turn (except perhaps as an opposed check, but even then I'm unsure of that , because it would seem that only the active character gets the benefit of using the force from the wording)

Ultimately, you can do what you want if you disagree, but it wont change how the devs intended them to work.

* I have tried to find out the definition of the wording standard skill check, never ever got an answer with it.

9 minutes ago, syrath said:

Up to you but the rules under the force-sensitive rules section on page 280 call that using a force power unless otherwise specified is an action, this includes combined power checks. This is also called out by repeated questions and answers from the devs as well. Example, using influence:control upgrade with Scathing Tirade a maneuver or action. Any of the piloting talents with Enhance etc

Ive questioned it myself because I was originally with you, however apparently RAW and RAI they don't work together. The only rules I can find which seem to collaborate this are as follows

page 280 - under Combined Force Power Checks - Some Force powers and Force Talents require the character to make a Force Power check that is a combined skill check. This generally represents the character using Force abilities in conjunction with other skills. It also comes into play when the character's force abilities may be opposed by the skills of his target.

When a character combines the Force power check with a STANDARD(*) skill check he would roll to make the "Force Power Check" with the dice roll to make the skill check.

moving to page 282 - The primary means by which a Force user manipulates the force is not UNCONSCIOUS....in any case , unless the power's description states otherwise using the power requires one action in structured time

So unless the wording of the force power says otherwise its going to need an action and conscious thought.

FWIW prior to my numerous questions as a result of seeing the devs answers on the forum, I would have agreed with you and have sat on that side of the argument, but apparently the wording of the talents and abilities that allow you to add force dice to skill checks doesnt override the requirement for needing an action. Example you can do a Scathing Tirade maneuver or a Scathing Tirade action , however neither of these would be an Influence power check action that would allow you to add force dice to the roll, similarly you cant use them out of turn (except perhaps as an opposed check, but even then I'm unsure of that , because it would seem that only the active character gets the benefit of using the force from the wording)

Ultimately, you can do what you want if you disagree, but it wont change how the devs intended them to work.

* I have tried to find out the definition of the wording standard skill check, never ever got an answer with it.

Yes, the Force power is an action. but the talent is not. Thus, the combined Forcepower/Pilot check is the action, while the use of Improved Full Throttle is a maneuver . That's my point. IF a talent is a Maneuver or a passive talent, then yes, you can legally use a Force power in conjunction with it. It is only if the talent itself is an action that you can't also use a Force power with it, since that would entail taking two actions.

43 minutes ago, syrath said:

Up to you but the rules under the force-sensitive rules section on page 280 call that using a force power unless otherwise specified is an action, this includes combined power checks. This is also called out by repeated questions and answers from the devs as well. Example, using influence:control upgrade with Scathing Tirade a maneuver or action. Any of the piloting talents with Enhance etc

Ive questioned it myself because I was originally with you, however apparently RAW and RAI they don't work together. The only rules I can find which seem to collaborate this are as follows

page 280 - under Combined Force Power Checks - Some Force powers and Force Talents require the character to make a Force Power check that is a combined skill check. This generally represents the character using Force abilities in conjunction with other skills. It also comes into play when the character's force abilities may be opposed by the skills of his target.

When a character combines the Force power check with a STANDARD(*) skill check he would roll to make the "Force Power Check" with the dice roll to make the skill check.

moving to page 282 - The primary means by which a Force user manipulates the force is not UNCONSCIOUS....in any case , unless the power's description states otherwise using the power requires one action in structured time

So unless the wording of the force power says otherwise its going to need an action and conscious thought.

FWIW prior to my numerous questions as a result of seeing the devs answers on the forum, I would have agreed with you and have sat on that side of the argument, but apparently the wording of the talents and abilities that allow you to add force dice to skill checks doesnt override the requirement for needing an action. Example you can do a Scathing Tirade maneuver or a Scathing Tirade action , however neither of these would be an Influence power check action that would allow you to add force dice to the roll, similarly you cant use them out of turn (except perhaps as an opposed check, but even then I'm unsure of that , because it would seem that only the active character gets the benefit of using the force from the wording)

Ultimately, you can do what you want if you disagree, but it wont change how the devs intended them to work.

* I have tried to find out the definition of the wording standard skill check, never ever got an answer with it.

You can use it on passive tests (i.e., opposed rolls), the text only means that Force use that involves rolling a Force die* must be a concious decision. However, an unconcious character exposed to poisonous gas could not use Enhance to bolster Resistance because they can not consciously choose to do so at that moment.

"This is different from subconcious uses of the Force, like Uncanny Reactions and Uncanny Senses.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, the Force power is an action. but the talent is not. Thus, the combined Forcepower/Pilot check is the action, while the use of Improved Full Throttle is a maneuver . That's my point. IF a talent is a Maneuver or a passive talent, then yes, you can legally use a Force power in conjunction with it. It is only if the talent itself is an action that you can't also use a Force power with it, since that would entail taking two actions.

I think you miss the point using enhance or any other force power or talent requires an action

so using a talent that is a maneuver , you cant use enhance with that talent as it requires an action (specifically for the one you mention to use enhance with piloting you arent doing a piloting skill check you are replacing it with an enhance force power which as it is a force power requires you to take an action)

Th enhance force power (except the two commit effects) does not say you enhance piloting checks until next turn. During your turn if you did the talent that requires a maneuver so you do your piloting check (this is during the maneuver, so where in the process do you manage to do an action during your maneuver, so you cant do enhance piloting because it requires an action and only works during that action, so either way if a talent is a maneuver, you cant use enhance because it requires an action or if the talent is an action you cant do both the talent and enhance in the same action).

If you want a better argument for it, try the one I used with the devs and that is the wording that it says unless otherwise specified a force ability requires an action, the enhance ability says "when making an X skill check make an enhance force combined check", or words to that effect, and I tried to argue that that "when making an x skill check" falls under "unless otherwise specified" , apparently it doesnt work that way.

Essentially you can use the enhance power when you actively call for a skill check, not when a talent or other ability does (unless it specifies that it requires a combined check), this is also other reason you cannot combine influence and terrify (either for doubling up on the abilities or sharing the force pips between them)

6 hours ago, TheSapient said:

Yup. For 50 XP, you can add force dice to 11 skills. I don't know if a force die is better than an ability die, but I'd say they are of the same order of magnitude. That is a good deal, even for a young force user. For an experienced character, it has a bang for the buck that a non-force user can't match.

For the record, my current  character has those 11, plus Mechanics from Manipulate. He hasn't bothered with the Foresee skill improvements because he uses Warde's Foresight on initiative checks (which is also pretty loony). He hasn't grabbed anything from the Farsight tree  , just  because he doesn'  t want to step on another character's toes.  

Yes you can spend 50 XP to add 1 force die to 11 skills.

You are leaving out the xp required to actually raise the force dice to a useful amount which depends on career and specializations taken.

You are also leaving out how you can't use any of the actual talents for mechanics if you use Manipulate...

32 minutes ago, Decorus said:

Yes you can spend 50 XP to add 1 force die to 11 skills.

You are leaving out the xp required to actually raise the force dice to a useful amount which depends on career and specializations taken.

You are also leaving out how you can't use any of the actual talents for mechanics if you use Manipulate...

Even at a force rating of 1 that isn't a poor deal. But at a higher force rating, you get a lot of bang for your buck.

Yes, you have filled up more spec trees to get that higher force rating. But you are getting useful stuff, just like the non-force user. The higher your force rating, the better deal those force to skills powers are. Spending 20 xp to gain, say, 5 force dice to all your social skills is insanely good. That's 25 dice added to your skills for 1-2 sessions of XP. A force users who had invested zero xp in social skills suddenly becomes a strong social character. Non-force users can't do that for 20 XP. Not anywhere close.

A Jedi mechanic and a mundane mechanic will be similar at similar XP. 20 more XP and the Jedi mechanic can charm your socks off and move crowds to action. The mundane mechanix can slightly increase one skill for that XP.

5 hours ago, TheSapient said:

Even at a force rating of 1 that isn't a poor deal. But at a higher force rating, you get a lot of bang for your buck.

Yes, you have filled up more spec trees to get that higher force rating. But you are getting useful stuff, just like the non-force user. The higher your force rating, the better deal those force to skills powers are. Spending 20 xp to gain, say, 5 force dice to all your social skills is insanely good. That's 25 dice added to your skills for 1-2 sessions of XP. A force users who had invested zero xp in social skills suddenly becomes a strong social character. Non-force users can't do that for 20 XP. Not anywhere close.

A Jedi mechanic and a mundane mechanic will be similar at similar XP. 20 more XP and the Jedi mechanic can charm your socks off and move crowds to action. The mundane mechanix can slightly increase one skill for that XP.

The Jedi needs to have started with a force rating then and filled up 4 trees with force rating stats in them to get to force rating 5. Or taken two trees with two force ratings in them, which means no dedication on those two. Otherwise they're not likely to have a force rating of 5. A colossus character could do it early by having 4 untreated crits on them, but then they have 4 untreated crits which is pretty **** bad.

At 4 filled trees a EotE or AoR character is going to be pretty impressive as well. Not able to influence weak minds with mystical force impressive, but very impressive at what they have specialized in being good at.

58 minutes ago, Darth Revenant said:

The Jedi needs to have started with a force rating then and filled up 4 trees with force rating stats in them to get to force rating 5. Or taken two trees with two force ratings in them, which means no dedication on those two. Otherwise they're not likely to have a force rating of 5. A colossus character could do it early by having 4 untreated crits on them, but then they have 4 untreated crits which is pretty **** bad.

At 4 filled trees a EotE or AoR character is going to be pretty impressive as well. Not able to influence weak minds with mystical force impressive, but very impressive at what they have specialized in being good at.

A tree doesn't really need to be "filled" as you can often make a plunge down to the bottom in order to get to Dedication and/or Force Rating while only buying the minimum of other talents. It's not what I tend to do, but it's not entirely unheard of either.

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

A tree doesn't really need to be "filled" as you can often make a plunge down to the bottom in order to get to Dedication and/or Force Rating while only buying the minimum of other talents. It's not what I tend to do, but it's not entirely unheard of either.

True, but the path to a force point is rarely straightforward and often requires getting at least one other bottom row talent, same thing goes for dedications. Getting up to a force rating of 5 is not exactly quick or easy to do, especially since you can't invest starting XP in getting more of it.

7 minutes ago, Darth Revenant said:

True, but the path to a force point is rarely straightforward and often requires getting at least one other bottom row talent, same thing goes for dedications. Getting up to a force rating of 5 is not exactly quick or easy to do, especially since you can't invest starting XP in getting more of it.

You could invest starting XP towards it by buying talents down to Force Rating, but it's not really something most people that have played the game are going to do.

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

You could invest starting XP towards it by buying talents down to Force Rating, but it's not really something most people that have played the game are going to do.

That would be an absolutely terrible idea since you're not getting attributes then. It would nerf your character something fierce until you can get those extra force dice. You would also be absolutely garbage on the stuff you can't add force dice to.

5 hours ago, Darth Revenant said:

The Jedi needs to have started with a force rating then and filled up 4 trees with force rating stats in them to get to force rating 5. Or taken two trees with two force ratings in them, which means no dedication on those two. Otherwise they're not likely to have a force rating of 5. A colossus character could do it early by having 4 untreated crits on them, but then they have 4 untreated crits which is pretty **** bad.

At 4 filled trees a EotE or AoR character is going to be pretty impressive as well. Not able to influence weak minds with mystical force impressive, but very impressive at what they have specialized in being good at.

Well, my character is an Ascetic/Niman/Exile. Of 72 talents, he has taken 41. He's delved deep into 3 force powers, and has lesser access to a few more. His Force Rating is 4, but he has the Ascetic free light and dark points to force power checks, which I think makes his FR 5-ish.

The other characters in the campaign have slightly higher XP, and are indeed very good within their specialties. But the two Jedi can step in in almost any situation and also do very well. My character isn't a pilot, but flies just fine. He isn't a diplomat, but can talk his way though most situations. He isn't a mechanic, but can fix most anything. He is a full character of his XP level, plus basically has a lot of lower level skill-heavy characters built in. He can compensate for low characteristics and no training for a lot of skills and situations.

Further, the ability to take conflict to avoid failing a critical skill check means that the Jedi are often asked to act in areas they have invested very little XP. And it just feels sort of silly when the party is working its way up the outside of a building when the two non-athletic Jedi just scamper up with the first level of Enhance. They never fall, because conflict solves a lot of problems. Of course, there is always the Despair....

I do think this is consistent with the movies and TV shows. But I also think it lowers the fun of the game a bit.

1 hour ago, TheSapient said:

Well, my character is an Ascetic/Niman/Exile. Of 72 talents, he has taken 41. He's delved deep into 3 force powers, and has lesser access to a few more. His Force Rating is 4, but he has the Ascetic free light and dark points to force power checks, which I think makes his FR 5-ish.

So you basically built a concept that is highly optimized for having a high Force Rating, and then seem confused when that high rating allows the PC to be very powerful with the Force? I just..I don't really understand this thread, or your problem with it. You keep acting like you think it's unfair for someone who has invested, apparently over 500xp in your original post, in being good with the Force, that they are actually good with the Force. Above a mundane PC with a similar skill set. That's the whole point of the Force. It makes people who normally wouldn't be able to do something exceptionally well (like a 6 year old racing pods, or flying a starship for the first time in a combat situation), to not only do it, but do it better than others. That's exactly what the Force is portrayed to allow people to do. To be able to leap higher than any mundane athlete could ever hope to accomplish. To be able to fly a starship better than they can (or at least have more average successes, Force abilities don't give people access to stuff that let's them do unique things with Triumphs or Advantage, which some of those can be very powerful). To be able to fight longer and harder, with less injury. To be able to fend off a dozen gunman single handedly with their saber, and not get pincushioned (or at least less likely). That's the whole point of being powerful with the Force. Which in this game translates to having invested XP into the abilities that are designed to let you do those very things.

1 hour ago, TheSapient said:

The other characters in the campaign have slightly higher XP, and are indeed very good within their specialties. But the two Jedi can step in in almost any situation and also do very well. My character isn't a pilot, but flies just fine. He isn't a diplomat, but can talk his way though most situations. He isn't a mechanic, but can fix most anything. He is a full character of his XP level, plus basically has a lot of lower level skill-heavy characters built in. He can compensate for low characteristics and no training for a lot of skills and situations.

Yes? And? I mean, again, that's what the Force does for those who can utilize it. You built a character who specialized in Force use, and the Force let's you do a LOT of crazy powerful things, if you take the time and effort to invest a lot of XP into it. It's working as intended. And that's not just my opinion on the matter, the Dev's have spoken multiple times that a high XP PC, who has devoted themselves to increasing their Force capabilities, will be VERY powerful in High XP games. That's not a bug, it's a feature of the game design. You are seeing the rewards of choosing that path for your character concept.

2 hours ago, TheSapient said:

Further, the ability to take conflict to avoid failing a critical skill check means that the Jedi are often asked to act in areas they have invested very little XP. And it just feels sort of silly when the party is working its way up the outside of a building when the two non-athletic Jedi just scamper up with the first level of Enhance. They never fall, because conflict solves a lot of problems. Of course, there is always the Despair....

If they are taking conflict that often, to avoid failing checks, they should be running the risk of Morality decay, assuming the GM is also giving them other situations that run the risk of generating Conflict for them. Which is a problem if the players actually care about the story of their character. If they are just munchkining it through the game, and don't care if their PC's start falling to the Darkside due to casual Conflict and Morality decay, well...that's on them I guess. Plus, the Force abilities don't allow the PC's to do things like Supreme Scathing Tirade, or other unique talents that have incredibly powerful applications. Some of them are similar in scope, like Battle Meditation being very good for a Leadership type of ability, but there are still limitations to it, when compared to some of the other specialized talent trees.

2 hours ago, TheSapient said:

I do think this is consistent with the movies and TV shows. But I also think it lowers the fun of the game a bit.

Well one thing to keep in mind about how the movies, and tv shows portray the Jedi when they are cranked up to 11, is that they are usually only dealing with other Force users. The movies have no problem splitting the party, to allow for maximum dramatic tension. Your PC party of Luke Skywalker, Wedge Antillies, Han, Chewie and the others, is great, but in one big scene, many of them will not be very useful. So, with this party, they split it up, so that everyone can have their time in the sun. Wedge is up in space, fighting the fleet over Endor, protecting the Death Star. Han, Chewie and the others, not being 100% Pilot specialized like Wedge, are on the planet, having a big mass combat scene. And Luke, the sole Force user in the party, is off on his own, having a scene with the other Force users, so that all of the threats are on par with each other.

There is a reason Padme wasn't chilling out with the Jedi during the Duel of the Fates, because she would've been superfluous, and the director knew that. So that good GM put her in a different situation, that required a different skill set, at the same time the Jedi were doing something else. If they are always hanging out together, then yes there will be an obvious divide in capabilities. Which again, we see in the films pretty regularly. When Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon hop down from that balcony and cleave through 20+ droids in 3 seconds, the rest of the party has barely made the climb down. But they also weren't actually in the shot.

So yeah, I don't really know what to tell you. If you don't like the fact that being a powerful Force user, has made you very powerful, maybe don't make a Force user?

also please bear in mind that those FR require you to flip a DP and use strain to using opposing shades this means that you can for 2 AGI and 4 force rating with no skill roll 2 green and 4 white to get a likely result of 2 success / 2 advantage and 2 or 3 force pips to add to success or advantage to the roll before negative dice, they can get that to 5 pips or so with flipping a DP and using opposing force pips

http://game2.ca/eote/?montecarlo=100000#ability=2&force=4

Someone starting with 3 in the characteristic with one rank in dedication and 4 ranks in skill rolls a likely roll of 3 success, 3 advantage and a triumph

http://game2.ca/eote/?montecarlo=100000#proficiency=4&ability=2

This gives the person the keyed into the skill and having spent 75 xp for dedication and 50 on the skill a better chance to succeed in general, more chance of triumph, more chance of higher swing results and is able to use said skill with talents. The force user had to get 3 increases in FR to get that good with some key skills and can only use them actively the beauty of enhance is that they can do both (but at a higher xp cost) and can choose advantage or success.

Essentially a force user can be come a jack of all trades this way, but will lose to a guy who spent the same amount of xp to actually do a thing.

So yes you are a good pilot, but the guy who actually spent all that xp picked up 5 ranks in piloting and 5 agi and has an entire tree of Piloting talents will beat you at piloting and still have hundreds of xp left over to do something else and be really good at it as well like charming people, gambling or even gunslinging.

Force using characters have to choose between buying skills, force powers and attributes, Non Force users can spend more xp on talents and skills and have more trees with better talents that they can use better then a force user can.

Yes you can build an awesome force user, but the other guy can optimize his build just as easily and be just as awesome with less xp.

4 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

So you basically built a concept that is highly optimized for having a high Force Rating, and then seem confused when that high rating allows the PC to be very powerful with the Force? I just..I don't really understand this thread, or your problem with it. You keep acting like you think it's unfair for someone who has invested, apparently over 500xp in your original post, in being good with the Force, that they are actually good with the Force. Above a mundane PC with a similar skill set. That's the whole point of the Force. It makes people who normally wouldn't be able to do something exceptionally well (like a 6 year old racing pods, or flying a starship for the first time in a combat situation), to not only do it, but do it better than others. That's exactly what the Force is portrayed to allow people to do. To be able to leap higher than any mundane athlete could ever hope to accomplish. To be able to fly a starship better than they can (or at least have more average successes, Force abilities don't give people access to stuff that let's them do unique things with Triumphs or Advantage, which some of those can be very powerful). To be able to fight longer and harder, with less injury. To be able to fend off a dozen gunman single handedly with their saber, and not get pincushioned (or at least less likely). That's the whole point of being powerful with the Force. Which in this game translates to having invested XP into the abilities that are designed to let you do those very things.

I am not "confused when that high rating allows the PC to be very powerful with the Force". I'm not talking about the force in general. I'm asking about other people's experience with a specific, narrow game mechanic that it only in a handful of controls in a subset of force powers. Discussing the cost/benifit of these controls is not "confusion". I did not say it was "unfair" for someone who has invested in force to be good with the force.

My question goes to game balance, not whether people who can use the force should be able to use the force. I'm asking whether other people's groups have been bothered by those specific Force controls. I'm not trying to take away your toys, or tell you how to play your game. If the Charmer spec had a talent that gave 4 upgrades to all combat checks, I would ask about that too. That that also would not be meant as an insult to you.

I also did not say these characters were taking conflict "often". I said it served as insurance in critical situations. Nor did I suggest we do not care about character. Thinking it odd for a character to go from almost no social skills to strong social skills with one 15 point purchases is not ignoring character.

If others don't find these controls to be unbalancing at higher XP, that's great! People in my group find it annoying, and I find I basically have to have my character step back to let other people shine. Where other characters specialize, they are the best at it, just like the Jedi characters are great at their specific thing. But the Jedi characters are also very good at everything else, and tend to fill all the unfilled niches, because of those few, inexpensive Force controls.

17 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

If others don't find these controls to be unbalancing at higher XP, that's great! People in my group find it annoying, and I find I basically have to have my character step back to let other people shine. Where other characters specialize, they are the best at it, just like the Jedi characters are great at their specific thing. But the Jedi characters are also very good at everything else, and tend to fill all the unfilled niches, because of those few, inexpensive Force controls.

In general I agree with you, and I find the mechanic of being able to add success and/or advantage to a skill check through the use of Force Pips to significantly impact the 'math' behind a skill check. I can also easily see why it would be frustrating for players.

I don't feel I have played enough to truly understand if it is game breaking. My gut tends to tell me its problematic (but not necessarily game breaking) especially at higher experience levels when a player can add guaranteed four or five success (or advantages) to a particular skill check.

19 minutes ago, syrath said:

also please bear in mind that those FR require you to flip a DP and use strain to using opposing shades this means that you can for 2 AGI and 4 force rating with no skill roll 2 green and 4 white to get a likely result of 2 success / 2 advantage and 2 or 3 force pips to add to success or advantage to the roll before negative dice, they can get that to 5 pips or so with flipping a DP and using opposing force pips

http://game2.ca/eote/?montecarlo=100000#ability=2&force=4

Someone starting with 3 in the characteristic with one rank in dedication and 4 ranks in skill rolls a likely roll of 3 success, 3 advantage and a triumph

http://game2.ca/eote/?montecarlo=100000#proficiency=4&ability=2

This gives the person the keyed into the skill and having spent 75 xp for dedication and 50 on the skill a better chance to succeed in general, more chance of triumph, more chance of higher swing results and is able to use said skill with talents. The force user had to get 3 increases in FR to get that good with some key skills and can only use them actively

This is all true. But the force user can cheaply get those Force Dice to a lot of skills. I absolutely agree with you that starting from scratch, it is considerably faster to become great with one skill by investing in that Characteristic and skill than to start with a low characteristic, build up force dice, and then invest in the FD to skill controls.

But, for high XP characters that are built with some focus, it is very easy for a force user to suddenly become very good at a bunch of unrelated skills in a way that non-force users can't. It is a mechanic that scales differently than the rest of the game. It makes total sense for an increase in force dice to increase the usability and/or strength of force powers. But with a small investment into just a couple force power trees, that increase in force dice also increases 11 skills (more if you've invested in certain other trees). Now your increases in Force Rating is also roughly equivalent to a Dedication, on top of all the other benefits you are gaining. Yes, you had to buy those force abilities at the expense of other choices. 50 XP can buy you some nice stuff in Bind, for example. But at high XP, where you have more force dice in play, those 50 XP add a LOT of dice to your skill sheet.

2 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

In general I agree with you, and I find the mechanic of being able to add success and/or advantage to a skill check through the use of Force Pips to significantly impact the 'math' behind a skill check. I can also easily see why it would be frustrating for players.

I don't feel I have played enough to truly understand if it is game breaking. My gut tends to tell me its problematic (but not necessarily game breaking) especially at higher experience levels when a player can add guaranteed four or five success (or advantages) to a particular skill check.

FWIW, I don't think it is game breaking either. At our table, it just leads to some sighing and some "I guess we should have the Jedi do it" at the most tense moments.

46 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

FWIW, I don't think it is game breaking either. At our table, it just leads to some sighing and some "I guess we should have the Jedi do it" at the most tense moments.

If none of the other characters have invested in specializing in certain skill checks and the Jedi has dropped XP to being able to use the Force on those checks (which seems to be the scenario we're talking about here), then I don't see a problem, any more than there's a problem with people sighing and saying "I guess we should have the 6 INT droid do it" whenever a Knowledge/Computers/etc. check comes up. RPG characters specialize in different niches, and things only become problematic when someone crowds someone else out of their own niche.

FWIW, I will say that skill ranks (especially beyond the first two or three) often feel over-costed in this system relative to the benefit you get, and so in that context, being able to add roll Force Dice on a check for a relatively small XP investment can feel like a very good bargain compared to the alternative. On the other hand, it still takes a lot of XP to increase your Force Rating further, so if Characteristic + current FR isn't cutting it, the Force user is still looking at a considerable investment to get better.

The one thing to also bear in mind that this generally allows success, not triumph !

No triumph, but the option to choose between success and advantage.

19 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

No triumph, but the option to choose between success and advantage.

I would like to point out that a one spec character can be highly specialised in more than 2 types of encounters with the sort of xp you need to get FR 4 and the force skills to use with it, and just being a skill hound (beyond enhance ) requires buy in to a few force powers or specs. Influence:control upgrade and enhance being the two easiest. For the same xp I can create a character that can punch for over 20 dmg per punch and could repeat this on a second combat check made in the same round and have a bit more xp to have it be over 25 per punch that ignores soak (50 damage ignoring soak going to strain threshold, is going to drop anything short of vehcile scale)

Armorer /soresu /protector with the protect force ability with similar xp can block upwards of 20 dmg per attack, keeping that up for a round and each time the damage is reduced to zero the full amount is reflected back.

Misdirect - combat ability on a plane warden with 2 FR a decent set of armor and a good coercion skill is able to stagger his opponent, either because the opponent rolled 3 threat and were overbalanced or a despair and got the same or failing that use precision strike to cause a stagger.

Try lying to a Marshal with unrlenting skeptic and 5 ranks of vigilance and a healthy willpower.

it is possible to break the systen easily if you know how to stack probability in your favor , (the warden I describe above , I played and triggering overbalance was too easy eventually)

19 hours ago, syrath said:

I think you miss the point using enhance or any other force power or talent requires an action

so using a talent that is a maneuver , you cant use enhance with that talent as it requires an action (specifically for the one you mention to use enhance with piloting you arent doing a piloting skill check you are replacing it with an enhance force power which as it is a force power requires you to take an action)

Th enhance force power (except the two commit effects) does not say you enhance piloting checks until next turn. During your turn if you did the talent that requires a maneuver so you do your piloting check (this is during the maneuver, so where in the process do you manage to do an action during your maneuver, so you cant do enhance piloting because it requires an action and only works during that action, so either way if a talent is a maneuver, you cant use enhance because it requires an action or if the talent is an action you cant do both the talent and enhance in the same action).

If you want a better argument for it, try the one I used with the devs and that is the wording that it says unless otherwise specified a force ability requires an action, the enhance ability says "when making an X skill check make an enhance force combined check", or words to that effect, and I tried to argue that that "when making an x skill check" falls under "unless otherwise specified" , apparently it doesnt work that way.

Essentially you can use the enhance power when you actively call for a skill check, not when a talent or other ability does (unless it specifies that it requires a combined check), this is also other reason you cannot combine influence and terrify (either for doubling up on the abilities or sharing the force pips between them)

Wrong. It is because the Improved Full Throttle allows you to use Full Throttle as a Maneuver that allows you to use Enhance with the one of the Piloting Control Upgrades with it. Not only that, but the Enhance Piloting Control Upgrades are combined checks . That means that the Force Power roll is done as part of the Piloting check. It doesn't replace it . So only one Action is being taken. What the rules do not allow you to do is use a talent that requires an Action to use, and a Force power (which also requires an Action to use) together because those each require their own actions. However, if the talent only requires a maneuver or is a passive talent, then yes, you can use a Force power with it because you are still only taking a single action, not multiple actions. Terrify requires its own action . That is why you can't use it with Influence . You can't take two actions in a single round, but you can take a maneuver and an action . The example I gave is a talent which only requires a Maneuver . That is the difference.

2 hours ago, TheSapient said:

I am not "confused when that high rating allows the PC to be very powerful with the Force". I'm not talking about the force in general. I'm asking about other people's experience with a specific, narrow game mechanic that it only in a handful of controls in a subset of force powers. Discussing the cost/benifit of these controls is not "confusion". I did not say it was "unfair" for someone who has invested in force to be good with the force.

My question goes to game balance, not whether people who can use the force should be able to use the force. I'm asking whether other people's groups have been bothered by those specific Force controls. I'm not trying to take away your toys, or tell you how to play your game. If the Charmer spec had a talent that gave 4 upgrades to all combat checks, I would ask about that too. That that also would not be meant as an insult to you.

I also did not say these characters were taking conflict "often". I said it served as insurance in critical situations. Nor did I suggest we do not care about character. Thinking it odd for a character to go from almost no social skills to strong social skills with one 15 point purchases is not ignoring character.

If others don't find these controls to be unbalancing at higher XP, that's great! People in my group find it annoying, and I find I basically have to have my character step back to let other people shine. Where other characters specialize, they are the best at it, just like the Jedi characters are great at their specific thing. But the Jedi characters are also very good at everything else, and tend to fill all the unfilled niches, because of those few, inexpensive Force controls.

Then no I don't think it's a problem, because your issue with the mechanics, that basically boils down to "A character with a lot of XP invested into skills, can do a lot of stuff really well" isn't unique to Force users. There have been a ton of threads, from other players (though usually from the GMs trying to run the table), complaining that their characters are so powerful that everything is a cakewalk for them. Every skill check results in multiple Triumphs, along with triggering talents that let them do even more powerful effects, and that it feels like it takes away the tension and drama from the story. This isn't a Force problem, this is a Powerful PC Problem. What you have described is simply the Force user flavor of this particular issue, which has been around since the game line started really. Bottom line, when a collective table of PC's gets to the multiple hundreds of XP, depending upon how streamlined and min/maxed they built themselves, the game can become very easy, unless the GM ratchets up the difficulty across the board (which they should be doing anyway, considering the power of the PC's).