BountyHunter, you said about the addition of the Innovation card to the AoU set: " As someone with 3 copies already, not exactly happy they re-printed this. Does it even have different artwork? Probably not. Disappointing ."

I find it not at all disappointing as this is nearly a must-have card in any deck. It's useful in any and every situation. Since player really don't have to limit themselves to only 50-card decks (I've proven this to myself already and Mr. Hata himself doesn't worry about it that much, either, which is good enough for me), the only complaint that could've been leveled against it (that it can dilute a deck a tiny bit) is really a toothless complaint.

BountyHunter, you also have suggested a few times that you think the next Cycle will push Quests. I'm curious what you're basing that theory upon? I'm not seeing any hints in that direction nor has James suggested that in our few matches these past 2 weeks. (I suppose I could ask him to see if he'd spill anything but he won't.)

I do have ONE interesting theory, though. After analyzing the potential Deck types by Faction combinations that can be created, there's definitely a disparity between Order and Destruction. Order can create these 6 decks (not saying that 3-part decks AREN'T possible but they remain somewhat problematic, in general):

ORDER :

High Elf - Empire
Dwarf - High Elf
Empire - Dwarf
High Elf (Pure)
Empire (Pure)
Dwarf (Pure)

DESTRUCTION :

Chaos - Dark Elf
Chaos - Orc
Chaos - Skaven
Orc - Skaven
Orc - Dark Elf
Dark Elf - Skaven
Dark Elf (Pure)
Skaven (Pure)
Orc (Pure)
Chaos (Pure)

So as you can see, there are only 6 Factional deck types available for Order but there are a whopping 10(!) factional deck types available for Destruction. That leads me to believe (or suspect) that we'll be getting a new Order Neutral-Race like the Skaven were for Destruction in the next Cycle or in a mini-Assault on Ulthuan-style expansion at some point in the future.

You heard it here first.

Wytefang said:

I disagree, but that my disagreement comes from my own play environment, you may have different mileage in your local playgroup

Wytefang said:

My theoretical logic is based on the self evident principle that better and stronger quests = more quests being played and slower metagame = more quests being played. My empirical research (abet from a limited sample and drawing from a non-probablistic sampling frame) at the point before Assault on Ulthuan was released displayed a concenus opinion that, simply put "all quests are crap in a rush environment apart from Wolves of the North, which rocks!". Obvoiusly this finding was determined though strenoius and extensive cross-validation displaying strong external validity*.

* May contain lies

My theory, now named Bountyhunter's Theory of "Quests are going to be more played" (I want a silver dollar every time someone says that tbh, no lie!) is based on three simple things.

1. Both The High Elf quests are amazingly strong. The First High Elf Quest gives an infinate recursion of damage cancellation, the second is just downright good for every single order deck. Given that... I believe presenting a hypothesis of "quests will see more play" is a little justifiable., and I await the empirical evidence to test that hypothesis.

2. The Dark Elf quest is strong too. Along with Wolves of the North it's a great addition to aggro-styled Destruction Decks.

3. Assault on Ulthuan as a set contains a lot of cards which will make rush less dominent as a deck (though, I stress, still not a weak choice, just not as uber-strong as before) . A slower metagame means that quests are actually worth playing.

Thus, mathematically, my logic is:

Better and Stronger Quests + Slowdown of Meta to allow quests to be played more = Quests played more.

Hehe, seroiusly btw, you're right to point it out and question my logic, it is a theory, and is completely dependent on the metagame changing to become more anti-rush (which, reading the varoius comments on these and other boards, I think almost everyone wants... apart from Orc players... but.. we just ignore them... )

And yes. I did have a few beers before replying to this post, Fullers Vintage Ale, the Real Ale choice of champions!

what I wonder is if there will ever be Quest-removal cards...if for instance every race has game-breaking quests at some point.

Ancient Map was a card I was pretty sure we'd be getting. Quests are almost always going to be singletons anway, since the second copy is generally much less useful (or they're unique). We probably won't see too many more 0- or 1-barrel quests now that it's out, but I guess that's OK. I like that it gives you a way to plan around a particular quest even if you aren't willing to run three copies of it, and a way to fetch a permanent loyalty icon. If the game slows down too much, it might become a little bit of a problem card, but I certainly don't think we're there yet.

Re: Innovation. I definitely think it was a good call to give out extra copies of this card, even though I already have three. While it isn't in every single deck I build, it is in enough decks that I would consider it a staple. It's almost an exact analog for Warpstone Excavation: if you want one, you want three. One faction is going to want three all of the time, and the other faction might occasionally want three as well.

A few random thoughts after getting my set today:

#22 Dark Initiate (Dark Elf Unit) 1-D

1/1. Priest.

This unit does not count its power unless you have at least 2 developments in this zone.

This card is sort of a mixed bag. It is much slower than the other 1 cost units but it does not have zone restrictions that they do either. I think it makes it pretty clear that dark elves will not be a rush race though.

-

#45 Lure Them Out (Dwarf Tactic) 1-DD

Action: Choose two target units, each in a different battlefield. Each target unit counts its power and deals that amount of damage to the other.

-

This is going to be an amazing multiplayer card since it doesn't say that one of those unit's has to be your's

This involves a combo of 3 new Dark Elf cards

Altar of Khaine #36, Lash the Prisoner #37, Walking Sacrifice #23

Okay, so I use Lash the Prisoner to sacrifice Walking Sacrifice, gaining 2 resources (Lash the Prisoner), and a card (Walking Sacrifice leaving play), right before Walking Sacrifice gets into my discard pile (although still leaving play), can I use Altar of Khaine to pay 1 resource to return Walking Sacrifice to my hand? Thanks for the help!

gamjuven said:

I do not believe the last part works. If I remember correctly the Altar of Khaine says when one of your units is about to be destroyed pay 1 resource and return to your hand. Sacrifice is distinct from destroying so should not work.

RexGator said:

Well if destroyed and sacrafice are two different things that never coincide then yes I would not be able to do that. So when you sacrifice a unit, is it not being destroyed as well? I thought sacrificing was just a way something could get destroyed. Thanks.

gamjuven said:

nope - sacrifices happen & resolve right away - like counterstrike or non-combat damage

gamjuven said:

sacrificed and destroyed ARE two different things that never coincide

cf FAQ

i.e. the Forced of Chaos Spawn do not activate when sacrificed.

Sacrifice can not be prevented or cancelled (FAQ p.7).

Bountyhunter said:

ROFL...good post. Just to clarify, I was not attacking or griping about your theory - just curious as to where you got it from, that's all!

I don't drink (yes, I'm boring that way) but your choice of beer sounds tasty! LOL

cyberfunk said:

Cyber, why do you think having 2 copies of a Quest is useless? Some of them do seem to stack, after all. And having a 2nd or 3rd copy (in the past, anyway) could guarantee a better chance of drawing one when you wanted it. Though this great new card should help us a ton with that - so now, yeah, I'd agree that with Ancient Map around, we only need 1 Quest. Yay!

Clamatius said:

I don't think that can happen, Forced Effects with "At the beginning of your turn" will always trigger before any action you can take at the beginning of your turn. Te conditional check that happens for the board playscape at each turn of phase will have all constant effects and then all forced effects initiating/triggering and then resolving before you get an opportunity to take an action. This check should also be happening after every action chain resolves.

I should clear that up, James said he had to go check (this was on Good Friday at the FFG center) - but that he was pretty sure that particular combo would NOT work for the reasons that Dormouse has laid out here.

Yeah, I was wrong on that. I thought the forced actions at beginning of turn worked the same way as normal actions at the beginning of turn, but they don't. Mea culpa.

Wytefang said:

I did have a Dwarf deck that ran three Prepare for War to get it running ASAP. And I think you could probably also build around Night Raids and plan to have more than one going. But with stuff like Defend the Border, Smash 'em All, Journey to the Gate, etc., the second copy is only good if they 1) CAN stop the first copy, and 2) CAN'T stop both copies at once (Troll Vomit or something). And I never had a deck where any of those effects were essential. Glorious Death is probably the best "utility" quest to play in multiple, and even there I usually had trouble finding room for a first copy, much less a second copy.

I think HE and Dwarves will pretty much always want to run the MapQuest (ha!) suite since they get a lot of use out of Infiltrate! AND have two good in-faction quests.

DE's quests are kind of expensive and you might not want to run both, so I don't know if Map will work there or not. They can at least use extra barrels they saved for an opponent's turn but then didn't need for whatever reason.

Orcs might slow down enough that Smash 'em All is good, and Wolves is probably worth paying one or two for if you can use the loyalty icon for other things. Infiltrate still seems a little too slow, though, so I dunno. I want to like Dat's Mine with Chaos, but I can't really talk myself into it. Journey to the Gate/Smash/Troll Vomit does put them in a bad spot if you pull it off.

Empire does have good questers like Peasant Militia and Huntsmen, but still just has Defend the Border. I don't really think Defend/Map/Infiltrate is a huge improvement over just running one (or two) of each. And I usually run just the one Infiltrate! or no quests at all.

Can more than 1 unit benefit from the Sack Quest?

I really like the combination of defend Tor Aendris and Reclaim the Hold. Both Quests provide their usefulness right in the turn that follows and if you manage to place a good defender on these ones you could easily replace them when they get destroyed if you have an abandoned mine in kingdom. I think destruction would really suffer from this and a Troll Vomit seems like the only weakness to this.