1 hour ago, Church14 said:

I actually think the I4 attack is significant.

I don't mean to imply that the I4 attack is not valuable. I agree with @JGrand that it is an important part of what makes Threshers good. I just think that their beefiness along with the insane hit/morale modifier on the dial means that even at I5 they will be meeting out punishment. But yes, moving their attack to I5 would undoubtedly be a significant nerf.... but they would still be very good, and likely still much better than the other siege units. That's how good they are now.

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

They are forced to charge short distances early. Cavalry beat them up close and most everything beats them with a long delayed charge. So they aren’t charging unless they arrive late to the party. Lancers can cause net game out to I7 and Scions our to I6. Late activations are potent.

That means they have to rely on I4 melee for most of their damage. At I5, they would attack after all melee infantry, all cav, all heroes. They would only match other siege and archers. When they attack nearly last and their big effect is reliant on melee attacks, the unit suffers. Those reliable severity two tests don’t occur outside melee. Their panic spreading is after activation. So, all their fear mechanics would occur late round. The opportunity to just wipe them out before attacking becomes pretty good.

I5 is also too early to counter punch against a lot of charges. Especially the long ones they are weak too.

So I would disagree - and acknowledge I may be wrong - and have to I5 attack would actually hurt them badly.

You make some solid points here. Sometimes being forced to move by initiative 5 is a weakness. But an initiative 3 distance 1 charge is very good, and it means they will still have opportunities to beat cavalry charges at close ranges with initiative, and can ensure that they will beat a lot of other units even without initiative (which also can make for another devastating attack at I4 the next round). I've seen skilled players set up exactly these situations with the bonus march on their dial facilitating. It allows them to really control the distance if they can reasonably infer what you are going to do. Even when I outplay Threshers in these situations, and get the alpha strike on the charge, I am often leaving it with only 3-4 wounds when it hits back next round and devastates my similarly costed unit. This feels... unfair. Most units don't have the opportunity to win match-ups (on evenish points) when they were outplayed. Threshers hp, damage-morale on the dial, and free re-roll (even when flanked) give them that opportunity. Giving them an I5 attack would at least give other units the chance to capitalize on outplaying them by removing a model before they hit back. Seems fair as getting outplayed by the Threshers in this same scenario will often mean losing the competing unit without dealing much if any damage to the Threshers.

Also, I think that having an I5 attack would actually allow them to counter punch more than you think. With the ability to charge 3 at initiative 5, if you are within range 3 (not hard to set up) your opponent will have to consider your counter charge even if they have initiative, meaning they will have to try to charge in early, opening them up for the counter attack with hit-panic on the dial. I'd bet that if you played a few games treating their attack as I5 you'd find that they are still the best value in the Uthuk army at 28 - 31 points.

9 hours ago, QuickWhit said:

Also, I think that having an I5 attack would actually allow them to counter punch more than you think. With the ability to charge 3 at initiative 5, if you are within range 3 (not hard to set up) your opponent will have to consider your counter charge even if they have initiative, meaning they will have to try to charge in early, opening them up for the counter attack with hit-panic on the dial. I'd bet that if you played a few games treating their attack as I5 you'd find that they are still the best value in the Uthuk army at 28 - 31 points.

You have good points, but I feel the need to point out one thing. Jukey will vouch that the most irritating unit (and best value) I use as Uthuk is an empty 2x1 Flesh Rippers. It’s a play style thing I guess.

EDIT: Took me a bit to think of the right way to phrase it, but in Runewars I generally value the ability of a unit to be where it is needed, when it is needed, as more important than just hitting hard.

8 hours ago, Church14 said:

You have good points, but I feel the need to point out one thing. Jukey will vouch that the most irritating unit (and best value) I use as Uthuk is an empty 2x1 Flesh Rippers. It’s a play style thing I guess.

EDIT: Took me a bit to think of the right way to phrase it, but in Runewars I generally value the ability of a unit to be where it is needed, when it is needed, as more important than just hitting hard.

You are definitely correct on the value of mobility here. But what makes flesh rippers reasonable is that I can put something armored like a CL or 2x1 of DKs in front of it and be reasonably sure I can deal with it.

I haven't figured out how to deal with a 2x1 of Threshers with Waiqar for less than 39 points (best solution for me so far has been CI archers plus a solo lancer and it still requires me to roll at least one surge). This makes lists running multiples of these so difficult to solve, especially when your opponents start running rallying shreiker...

10 hours ago, Church14 said:

You have good points, but I feel the need to point out one thing. Jukey will vouch that the most irritating unit (and best value) I use as Uthuk is an empty 2x1 Flesh Rippers. It’s a play style thing I guess.

 EDIT: Took me a bit to think of the right way to phrase it, but in Runewars I generally value the ability of a unit to be where it is needed, when it is needed, as more important than just hitting hard.

100% agreed--mobility increases are one of the aspects that has set apart Latari and Uthuk from Daqan and Waiqar. In a game where movement is so rigid and unforgiving, the multitude of possibilities the newer factions offer in terms of movement, shifts, double moves, etc. is a big reason they feel a bit better that the core two.

To this end, the crabwalk Threshers are particularly nasty in that they have movement flexibility and hit harder than they should for their price point. The two tray Rippers are useful, but I find the 2x2 with Rank and Dead Sprint to be absolutely insane in terms of their consistency.

1 hour ago, QuickWhit said:

I haven't figured out how to deal with a 2x1 of Threshers with Waiqar for less than 39 points (best solution for me so far has been CI archers plus a solo lancer and it still requires me to roll at least one surge). This makes lists running multiples of these so difficult to solve, especially when your opponents start running rallying shreiker...

There is no easy answer for them in Waiqar. 2x1 Rank Archers do make a dent if you have 2-3 units, but 66 points of Archers is only averaging about 12 damage a turn. Plus, you have to also deal with Rippers and Ravos.

The really tough part I've found is that the Wormstar at 78 points is completely outclassed by two 2x1 crabwalk Threshers (61 points total). It doesn't feel great when they attack first, pull a level two panic, and reform you...

I use Violent Forces Maro against Spined Threshers. He puts a significant dent into them, and since he shoots on Init6, most of the time the Threshers have just moved into his range before he gets to shoot. It's why I absolutely love his late shooting attack.

1 hour ago, rebellightworks said:

I use Violent Forces Maro against Spined Threshers. He puts a significant dent into them, and since he shoots on Init6, most of the time the Threshers have just moved into his range before he gets to shoot. It's why I absolutely love his late shooting attack.

Dang it, man! You're making me want to crawl back to Maro again! He really is a well-balanced hero, with good strengths and weaknesses.

Just now, Parakitor said:

Dang it, man! You're making me want to crawl back to Maro again! He really is a well-balanced hero, with good strengths and weaknesses.

I know right? Almost like the designers/playtesters look at the game as an evolving aspect of the next 3-12 months, instead of at a snapshot of what's currently released!

Now that I got that out of my system, i'm going back to my dead horse that I love beating. The game is ever-changing, ever-evolving. Right now Spined Threshers are *King. I forsee lots of Heavy Crossbowmen and other ranged units that can cancel out their supposed dominance in the future, and then we'll see them swing back down. We saw a similar effect after Gencon last year in regards to Oathsworn, you know, the super undercosted, most efficient unit ever? We saw a lot of dominance, and then everyone looked at their cards and units and realized just how many ways they could deal out Wounds to counter the Oathsworn's +1 defense modifier, and we started seeing less and less of them. Also, new units got released. Miniature games are ever-cyclical, give the game time, try something new, and you'll be surprised at what shakes out as a previously "bad card" is actually great! I can't wait to stick Mistlands Saboteur on a waiqar block and start making people pitch their upgrades. It's going to be hilarious. Or, when Daqan players start snagging Nerekhall Hexer when they notice their opponents never clearing out Panic tokens and start panic-bombing everything around them (especially if they get access to a unit that hands out panic tokens, one can only hope)

*King is certain areas. Around me, since 2x units of Heavy Crossbowmen are so prevalent, Spined Threshers are considered a liability and Flesh Rippers are preferred.

2 hours ago, rebellightworks said:

It's why I absolutely love his late shooting attack.

57 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

He really is a well-balanced hero

I would guess one won't be using his abilities much with that build (violent forces), so his fighting skill is pretty much his job. But is there any duel against an somehwhat equally priced unit that he would actually have a chance of winning? I'm thinking 3x2 RAArchers, 2x2 Lancers, 3x2 Deepwood archers, 3x2 Heavy crossbowmen, 2x3 Oathsworn, etc.

In the world of "dueling equally priced units" Daqan wins every time. Units in Runewars seem to not be designed to work independently, but rather seem designed to work with and around each other. Looking at things in a vacuum, IMHO, is a great way to not look at the actual unit's potential.

I dont realy see where you get the dueling equaly priced units argument. That role seems to be taken by Uthuk not Daquan IMHO.

Ankaur Maro does work as an artillery piece that just hammers things that can't get to him. Setting up behind terrain, he can shoot things that have to come around to line up a charge, and on turns where he has no shot, after all other units are engaged for example, he can shift + rally to get Fortuna's Dice back up, and get ready to deliver another devastating volley.

If he gets attacked, there's not really any "standing up" he can do. So I'm trying to evaluate the best Waiqar tarpit to hold up enemies. I ADORE Reanimates with Lingering Dead and Necromancer, but that dude is easy to snipe. I mean, against Spined Threshers he's fine because they don't roll accuracies, but if I'm going to put an anti-Spined Thresher champion in there, why wouldn't I go for Executioner?

43 minutes ago, rebellightworks said:

In the world of "dueling equally priced units" Daqan wins every time. Units in Runewars seem to not be designed to work independently, but rather seem designed to work with and around each other. Looking at things in a vacuum, IMHO, is a great way to not look at the actual unit's potential.

I fully understand that most units are not designed to work independently, but I still don't see how Ankaur with Violent forces is significantly elevated by any other Waiqar unit that levels the field. I guess the thought is him plus a 2x1 Reanimates because he can raise those? But wouldn't they block his line of fire (for the Violent forces use) in order to protect him?And then we are at 62 points, and I would for instance entertain facing that with 3x1 Crossbow+Temp steel+Ranked discipline even with 2 rune golems in front. Or what about 2 2x1's of Spined threshers with either Devouring Maws or Scuttling horror?

Now if Waiqar gets a proper elite infantry that he can raise, that would most likely bring him into the game. (Yes, I will once again force my homemade stuff on everyone, sorry)

2 minutes ago, Maktorius said:

I fully understand that most units are not designed to work independently, but I still don't see how Ankaur with Violent forces is significantly elevated by any other Waiqar unit that levels the field. I guess the thought is him plus a 2x1 Reanimates because he can raise those? But wouldn't they block his line of fire (for the Violent forces use) in order to protect him?And then we are at 62 points, and I would for instance entertain facing that with 3x1 Crossbow+Temp steel+Ranked discipline even with 2 rune golems in front. Or what about 2 2x1's of Spined threshers with either Devouring Maws or Scuttling horror?

Now if Waiqar gets a proper elite infantry that he can raise, that would most likely bring him into the game. (Yes, I will once again force my homemade stuff on everyone, sorry)

I've used Maro in 20+ games, and not in a single one have I used his skill action. Not a single one. He is a ranged battering ram, and that's how I use him. If I want to raise trays, I embed him in a unit.

Also, in waiqar, I feel that Maro outdoes every other option in terms of ranged damage. I'm the guy that took a unit of Crossbowmen with Maro when I won a regional over Reanimate Archers. I'm also in the .001% minority that thinks his ranged attack on Init6 is a boon, not a bane. I also play him differently, apparently. If Uthuk didn't mesh with my playstyle so much easier, I'd never leave home without Maro (with violent forces).

This topic has grown into a very interesting discussion. So many knowledgeable folks sharing their experiences and insights. I'm really enjoying it :)!

7 minutes ago, rebellightworks said:

I've used Maro in 20+ games, and not in a single one have I used his skill action. Not a single one. He is a ranged battering ram, and that's how I use him. If I want to raise trays, I embed him in a unit.

Also, in waiqar, I feel that Maro outdoes every other option in terms of ranged damage. I'm the guy that took a unit of Crossbowmen with Maro when I won a regional over Reanimate Archers. I'm also in the .001% minority that thinks his ranged attack on Init6 is a boon, not a bane. I also play him differently, apparently. If Uthuk didn't mesh with my playstyle so much easier, I'd never leave home without Maro (with violent forces).

I'm certainly not debating your skill as a player, or any one elses either. I'm just trying to understand the actual details of why you think he is good, as it is not apparent to me.

What I'm gathering so far is that he is a unit which abilities you don't use (bringing in one of the best units to another army, without any clear combo synergy, just makes me wonder why one wouldn't play that other faction instead), he probably can't win any duels and he does not have any other synergy advantage with any other Waiqar units that is better than what they can put up. Now I can see that I probably come of as a jerk, that is not my intention, I'm just trying to push you to answer in a form that a person as thick as me can get, sorry

@Maktorius, in my opinion, Ankaur Maro's winning feature is the double-hit modifier on his dial. With Violent Forces, that's only 4 damage, but he rolls Stable white dice, which makes it more potent. It really isn't a high amount of damage, but it's a pretty high amount for a ranged unit, because he can elect to shoot anybody in arc; melee units can be much more restricted in targeting choices. And it's super consistent.

Also, Violent Forces Ankaur Maro is by his very design less about synergy, and more about standalone units, which is why he looks for the strongest units from all the factions to bring into his army with Hidden Lore of the Shadow Council. It always feels like a waste when I bring Maro but no out-of-faction units.

But you're right: on paper it can be easy to dismiss him.

(By the way, it pleases me how many Necromancer avatars are posting in this thread.)

1 minute ago, Parakitor said:

@Maktorius, in my opinion, Ankaur Maro's winning feature is the double-hit modifier on his dial. With Violent Forces, that's only 4 damage, but he rolls Stable white dice, which makes it more potent. It really isn't a high amount of damage, but it's a pretty high amount for a ranged unit, because he can elect to shoot anybody in arc; melee units can be much more restricted in targeting choices. And it's super consistent.

But are you truly factoring in his price of 46p (with violent forces)?

Is the damage higher than the equally costed 3x2 Reanimate archers? They have a wider firing arc, does not always shoot last (by putting other units' dials on 5 you can somewhat choose to delay the way @rebellightworks wants), have way more hitpoints, has an ability that can be used while shooting.

Is he better than 2 2x1 Reanimate archers with Ranked discipline?

And perheps we should not even compare with units in Waiqar since they are not doing that well (except for @rebellightworks), how powerful is he for 46p against what is out there in the other factions (not thinking about duels)? Is he balanced?

11 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Also, Violent Forces Ankaur Maro is by his very design less about synergy, and more about standalone units, which is why he looks for the strongest units from all the factions to bring into his army with Hidden Lore of the Shadow Council. It always feels like a waste when I bring Maro but no out-of-faction units.

I'm reading: Ankaur is not strong, but he can bring in units that are over the curve by themselves, which balances "the build". And I guess I can see that point. But isn't that sad (not that it matters though)? Kari at least brings something in (Deepwood archers) that becomes insane in the army when Lord Hawthorne makes them 4x1.

1 hour ago, rebellightworks said:

I've used Maro in 20+ games, and not in a single one have I used his skill action. Not a single one. He is a ranged battering ram, and that's how I use him. If I want to raise trays, I embed him in a unit.

Also, in waiqar, I feel that Maro outdoes every other option in terms of ranged damage. I'm the guy that took a unit of Crossbowmen with Maro when I won a regional over Reanimate Archers. I'm also in the .001% minority that thinks his ranged attack on Init6 is a boon, not a bane. I also play him differently, apparently. If Uthuk didn't mesh with my playstyle so much easier, I'd never leave home without Maro (with violent forces).

I still love Maro, though I do think he should have built in Precise 1 for his cost. You are correct that the i6 can be a boon (harsh against other ranged units though). He is an excellent character when played well, but he is also perhaps the hero with the lowest floor; Waqiar in general are far less forgiving than the other factions.

I also like your idea of bringing in the 3x1 Heavycrossbowmen. It is either those or a 2x1 Thresher unit right now, and I am of the opinion that Maro is not worth taking if you aren't making use of his Forbidden Lore ability.

2 minutes ago, Maktorius said:

But are you truly factoring in his price of 46p (with violent forces)?

Is the damage higher than the equally costed 3x2 Reanimate archers? They have a wider firing arc, does not always shoot last (by putting other units' dials on 5 you can somewhat choose to delay the way @rebellightworks wants), have way more hitpoints, has an ability that can be used while shooting.

Is he better than 2 2x1 Reanimate archers with Ranked discipline?

And perheps we should not even compare with units in Waiqar since they are not doing that well (except for @rebellightworks), how powerful is he for 46p against what is out there in the other factions (not thinking about duels)? Is he balanced?

I've tried the 3x2 Reanimate Archers as a Maro replacement and did not like them. I found that the 3x2 just has too much competition at every slot except the mandatory Raven Standard Bearer.

The issues I have:

Tempered Steel vs. Wind Rune

One lets them actually survive the game, which is probably the way to go. At the same time, their damage output feels incredibly light without Tempered Steel.

Combat Ingenuity vs. Rank Discipline vs. Close Quarters Targeting

Re-rolls from having a back rank can be fleeting, so Rank feels necessary to ensure optimization. However, without CI they aren't making use of what sets the unit apart from other archers in terms of blight production. CCT is just nice generally and ensures there isn't an easy way to stop their damage production.

I've tried them in all sorts of mix and max combos, and have come to the conclusion that the 2x1 Rank is the best value.

Whether Maro is better is a tough call. Fortuna's Dice Maro is good for a reliable 8+ damage or two mortal wounds, which is a ton. That being said, Waiqar has no ability to easily ready exhaust upgrades, yet he isn't scary enough without Fortuna's. I'd still love him if he had Precise 1 built in for 46.

@rebellightworks has been rocking Maro as a way to bring in some reinforcements, and that might be the key to making the most of the 52 point investment.

Maro with Violent Forces and Fortuna's plus a 2x1 Threshers is 80

Maro with Violent Forces and Fortuna's plus a 3x1 Tempered Steel, Rank Crossbowmen is 86

Neither is a bad core for Waiqar.

11 minutes ago, JGrand said:

I still love Maro, though I do think he should have built in Precise 1 for his cost. You are correct that the i6 can be a boon (harsh against other ranged units though). He is an excellent character when played well, but he is also perhaps the hero with the lowest floor; Waqiar in general are far less forgiving than the other factions.

I also like your idea of bringing in the 3x1 Heavycrossbowmen. It is either those or a 2x1 Thresher unit right now, and I am of the opinion that Maro is not worth taking if you aren't making use of his Forbidden Lore ability.

I see 2x1 threshers being taken with him being done a bit lately (including doing it myself) and I really don't like it. The issue lies in their dial. They move in a weird timing slot that overextends them right on Init5 to be shot to pieces before you can move the rest of your units to become targets. I played against Maro w/ ST in my last game in the regional and I blew them off the board with my Maro/Xbowmen at Init5/6 because they were the only thing in threat range (everything else moved up that turn).

14 minutes ago, Maktorius said:

But are you truly factoring in his price of 46p (with violent forces)?

Is the damage higher than the equally costed 3x2 Reanimate archers? They have a wider firing arc, does not always shoot last (by putting other units' dials on 5 you can somewhat choose to delay the way @rebellightworks wants), have way more hitpoints, has an ability that can be used while shooting.

Is he better than 2 2x1 Reanimate archers with Ranked discipline?

And perheps we should not even compare with units in Waiqar since they are not doing that well (except for @rebellightworks), how powerful is he for 46p against what is out there in the other factions (not thinking about duels)? Is he balanced?

I'm reading: Ankaur is not strong, but he can bring in units that are over the curve by themselves, which balances "the build". And I guess I can see that point. But isn't that sad (not that it matters though)? Kari at least brings something in (Deepwood archers) that becomes insane in the army when Lord Hawthorne makes them 4x1.

Yep, sure am. My Maro is actually 52, Violent Forces and Fortunas Dice. His damage is higher than 3x2 archers. Minimum/Maximum for Maro is 4/12, Min/Max (including assuming Temperd Steel is used) 3/15. I *really* hate talking about averages (especially when I see things like 2.75blarghBS as the result, as show me how Runewars dice can roll 2.75 hits) but I will argue that Maro with fortunas is more consistent, especially after damage has been sustained. 3x2 have larger arcs, yes, but are also easier to be targeted in return, both by ranged and charges/melee.

I also really really really hate the 4x1 deepwood archers. Whenever I play against them, I smile nicely and say "Thank you for spending 99 points on something that 34 could have done. Oh, and thanks for the free kills on double hero." You have to pay points for Kari AND Hawthorne to get a unit to do the exact same job as a unit in your faction that is a single point more expensive (unless you take Marching Musician, which you should really try if you haven't). Not taking KariThorne is a great way to add list building flexibility back into your list without spending 99+ points. OH, and you don't have squishy heroes floating around (All heroes are squishy) unless you bring them for a specific purpose besides bring a 33 pt unit that a 34 pt unit could do the exact same work.

4 minutes ago, JGrand said:

I've tried the 3x2 Reanimate Archers as a Maro replacement and did not like them. I found that the 3x2 just has too much competition at every slot except the mandatory Raven Standard Bearer.

I'm not saying that 3x2 Reanimate archers are the optimal choice, just that it might be better than Ankaur.

6 minutes ago, JGrand said:

Maro with Violent Forces and Fortuna's plus a 2x1 Threshers is 80

Maro with Violent Forces and Fortuna's plus a 3x1 Tempered Steel, Rank Crossbowmen is 86

Neither is a bad core for Waiqar.

My point is that it's worse than Uthuk playing 3 2x1 Threshers or Daqan playing two sets of Crossbowmen and a golem. So it might be a good base for Waiqar, but it's worse than Uthuk and Daqan.

11 minutes ago, Maktorius said:

My point is that it's worse than Uthuk playing 3 2x1 Threshers or Daqan playing two sets of Crossbowmen and a golem. So it might be a good base for Waiqar, but it's worse than Uthuk and Daqan.

Put it on the table. I did, and won a Regional. It completely blew a 2x xbowmen list off the table. Maro was out of range , so the xbowmen moved into range, and promptly were dealt 8 damage, and were ineffective at the point.

Here's a list for you. It's the final revision to my regionals list.

http://tabletopadmiral.com/runewars/undead/p085u45uEMu2fu46uEMu0ap101u3du3ap0f2u27uEMu0ep071uEMp071uEM

Why did they move into range? Because I was 7 points ahead in the game already, and if they didn't advance, the player lost. So they were forced to do something, and a vast majority of their options meant Maro got a shot off, when he wanted to, while being protected. Init6 shooting is awesome.

Quote

@rebellightworks has been rocking Maro as a way to bring in some reinforcements, and that might be the key to making the most of the 52 point investment.

I bring Maro plenty without Shadow Council, but yeah, in this case, bringing in a rockstar ranged unit to replace the (IN MY BIASED OPINION) terrible Reanimate Archers. I swear, I have the absolute worst luck with them. I've never gotten more than 2 blight a shot with them, and they never do any/enough damage for me. Other people's mileage varies.

My main Waiqar brother @Tvayumat hates Maro, always gets him killed, and rolls 4 blight a shot with Blight Batteries.

9 minutes ago, rebellightworks said:

I see 2x1 threshers being taken with him being done a bit lately (including doing it myself) and I really don't like it. The issue lies in their dial. They move in a weird timing slot that overextends them right on Init5 to be shot to pieces before you can move the rest of your units to become targets.

Interesting. Don't you rally off the blight first turn so that the Threshers have to catch up?

10 minutes ago, rebellightworks said:

I *really* hate talking about averages (especially when I see things like 2.75blarghBS as the result, as show me how Runewars dice can roll 2.75 hits)

Agreed.

8 minutes ago, Maktorius said:

My point is that it's worse than Uthuk playing 3 2x1 Threshers or Daqan playing two sets of Crossbowmen and a golem. So it might be a good base for Waiqar, but it's worse than Uthuk and Daqan.

That's a very good point. If one of a thing is good, isn't two of that thing always better? How might the rest of the Waiqar army cover for weaknesses that would otherwise be there if you could take more than one Crossbowmen? The biggest weakness is that the threat of that unit gets ruined after suffering minor-moderate damage, so bringing something that doesn't lose threat that fast could be good. Also, engaging with a cheap Carrion Lancer to prevent them shooting Maro. It really is hard to look at units in a vacuum.

But I have to concede that in the case of Spined Threshers, you may be right: 3 2x1's is probably better than Maro + a 2x1. The whole point of this topic is that Spined Threshers seem to be too good for the price. However, since I play Waiqar, I can't bring multiple Spined Threshers units, so I work with what I've got; and Maro brings a consistency and threat that isn't seen elsewhere in Waiqar's faction so he has value, imo.

(Bonus thought: Spined Threshers' panic works well with Reanimates' morale modifier to get big panic tests. Again, maybe not as great as an Uthuk warband specializing in panic, but it's at least some measure of synergy.)

I see what you did there, bring the thread back to the original (kinda) topic. Especially since the OP is an advertisement for a youtube video.

Do I think Spined Threshers are good? Yes.

Do I think Spined Threshers break the game? Not at al

I think that people are screaming the sky is falling. Remember when Obcasium's gauntlet was released? Remember the thread where the OP claimed it killed the entire list by itself? Remember how it worked out that O's Gauntlet only actually did 3 wounds over the whole game? Sky was falling, ban the cheap artifact that was going to break the game.

Instead of trying to balance a unit, trust that the Playtesters and Developers did their jobs right and try to find what techniques THEY used to handle this unit. Personally, I just shoot the crap out of them. They also kinda hate stun tokens.