The serrated spines isn't restricted by unit type, so it can go on Berserkers or any other Uthuk unit that can have an equipment upgrade.

Uthuk faction is becoming overpowered. What do you think ? These guy`s extreme fast movement can not be matched in a battle with other factions.

5 hours ago, dianaversace1 said:

Uthuk faction is becoming overpowered. What do you think ? These guy`s extreme fast movement can not be matched in a battle with other factions.

Sooooo fast! I ran a game with warsprinter and had my berserkers making a 3 move and a 4 move with 4 unstable runes. Deadly.

Crabstar with windrune and scutteling horror... Making the "slow" spinethreshers move like mobile cavallery. Or on the otther hand, crabstar with shieldwall for a singlemodell to have 15 effective hp, yep not goinng close too that thing if i can... Im not a big fan of them giving them the equipment uppgrade. The only weakness is blight maybe?

13 hours ago, dianaversace1 said:

Uthuk faction is becoming overpowered. What do you think ? These guy`s extreme fast movement can not be matched in a battle with other factions.

If everything Uthuk did could be matched by other factions, then there would be no reason to take them beyond flavor. They have to be unique somehow and the crazy speed is part of it.

Yes, they win charges, but lack real ability to sustain in a standup fight.

Barring a revelation in the as-yet-unseen dials, Uthuk are already at peak power for their fast beatstick armies. The new expansions give them abilities in a different direction - which is good - but contribute nearly nothing to the current popular strategy. So no, not getting overpowered.

3 hours ago, Church14 said:

Yes, they win charges, but lack real ability to sustain in a standup fight.

Barring a revelation in the as-yet-unseen dials, Uthuk are already at peak power for their fast beatstick armies. The new expansions give them abilities in a different direction - which is good - but contribute nearly nothing to the current popular strategy. So no, not getting overpowered.

Lack the ability to outsustain in a standup fight? im not shure that the two armor five wound threshers agree, they even got more wounds than a infantery tray and thus get even more use of shieldwall... IMO the equipmentslot on them is a bit over the top even if thresherstar you need to take a thresherstar to utilise it. But imagine crabs with shields... As for the infantery all of them are quite equal in durability but an argumen can be made for that the shield modifyer on Daquan, Waiqar and Latari can make them more durable. - ( not waiquar though beacause they obvouisly dont have shields to form a wall with). As for the cavallery, rippers are tied with deathknoghts with the cavalery unit that stans up to most pure dammage without modifyers. Shure they are more suseptible to chip dammage, but point for point in a standup fight i belive they outlast most cavelery. Oathsworn can outlast them if we count in the modifyrer or be equal in hitpoints, but with the ability to resist the last bit of dammage... What im trying to say is that they sustain quite well maybe beaten by Daquan and Waiquar? but far supassing Latari.

As for your second argument i belive the new utility is fhurther improving the exsisting tactics by giving them more mobility or covering for that tactics weaknes. Skuteling horror give threshers more mobility at a low cost and is thus helping the steamrolling playstyle. Th'Uk Tar and Gorgemaw give Uthuk a source of inspiration while they where quite suseptible to banes before. Dewovering maws fhurther enhaces the threshers ability to sustain. However i do agree that we shuld have unique factions with differing gameplay. That Uthuck are fast and hard hitting is maybe a stronger unique ability than the other factions.

Generaly i belive all the factions have gotten great new upgades but since Uthuck also have aquierd equaly strong upgrades it can seem as they are creeping away... Not getting overpowered, they already are overpowered?!

I watched a 3 unit daqan list break a solid uthuk list like water. High armor and early attacks will really mess up uthuk.

Trouble is, waiqar and Latari lack access to both of these for the most part. However, there are options.

Waiqar:

Raven standard bearer. This let's them hit first against everything except Ravos on the wrong turn.

Captivating hexer, which while niche, has its uses against scuttling zoidstars and cat bouncing.

Deathmist banners is deadlier to uthuk than any other faction.

Deathknights. While susceptible to Ravos feeding (it should be a mortal strike), they are nearly untouchable by the rest of the uthuk.

Blight. If nothing else, just blight the dice off those crabs.

Latari:

Leonx, if well commanded, should always decide when and where it engages. Although being extreme glass canons, leonx can pick up a flank very easily, and cat bounce to avoid damage and prep for another charge next turn.

Herald of the twisting gale and Darnati, although not highly useful yet, this cards potential will come with darnati. Darnati can make banking shift charges, which in large tray formations will give them 360° threat zone. Add in reforming when colliding with an opponent...this unit will **** **** up.

Meagan, hero with the highest potential damage output in the game, also possibly the most swingy hero in the game. She's good as a ranged fireball launcher, but hard to keep safe. I've found that as long as she picks her targets wisely, martial meagan is an armored beast, with random massive damage output.

6 hours ago, Jukey said:

Deathknights. While susceptible to Ravos feeding (it should be a mortal strike), they are nearly untouchable by the rest of the uthuk.

Are you talking about his surge ability? His end-of-round ability represents his sometimes-cannibalistic feeding. His surge ability represents swinging his scythe around and hitting every enemy in range. This ability was first depicted in BattleLore: Command. As far as being mortal strikes, that really only matters for Death Knights, right? The reason it can't be a mortal strike is because that symbol is only used during step 8 of combat, at which point the defender suffers a wound for each mortal spent by the attacker. If this ability was a mortal strike, it could only damage the defender. His ability only works mechanically if it causes wounds.

4 hours ago, Jukey said:

Herald of the twisting gale and Darnati, although not highly useful yet, this cards potential will come with darnati. Darnati can make banking shift charges, which in large tray formations will give them 360° threat zone. Add in reforming when colliding with an opponent...this unit will **** **** up.

Beautiful! I want to run that unit!

7 hours ago, Datskor said:

Lack the ability to outsustain in a standup fight? im not shure that the two armor five wound threshers agree, they even got more wounds than a infantery tray and thus get even more use of shieldwall... IMO the equipmentslot on them is a bit over the top even if thresherstar you need to take a thresherstar to utilise it. But imagine crabs with shields... As for the infantery all of them are quite equal in durability but an argumen can be made for that the shield modifyer on Daquan, Waiqar and Latari can make them more durable. - ( not waiquar though beacause they obvouisly dont have shields to form a wall with). As for the cavallery, rippers are tied with deathknoghts with the cavalery unit that stans up to most pure dammage without modifyers. Shure they are more suseptible to chip dammage, but point for point in a standup fight i belive they outlast most cavelery. Oathsworn can outlast them if we count in the modifyrer or be equal in hitpoints, but with the ability to resist the last bit of dammage... What im trying to say is that they sustain quite well maybe beaten

Shield wall only works if you have equal to or more trays from the attacker, so not usually likely.

Spined Threshers are easy to handle. Shoot them. They're one of the slower units, and their marches are right in line with them moving into range to be shot. Crossbowmen absolutely devastate Spined Threshers

7 hours ago, Jukey said:

Leonx, if well commanded, should always decide when and where it engages. Although being extreme glass canons, leonx can pick up a flank very easily, and cat bounce to avoid damage and prep for another charge next turn.

Uthuk are actually better equipped than anyone else to handle elf mobility shenanigans. Aggressive warsprinter means berserkers can reform and charge if you're on the flank or attack and charge if you're in front, effectively removing the risk of the leonx bounce. Scuttling horror sometimes presents the same issue as leonx do, and flesh rippers can reengage when they reveal their dial.

1 hour ago, Bhelliom said:

Uthuk are actually better equipped than anyone else to handle elf mobility shenanigans. Aggressive warsprinter means berserkers can reform and charge if you're on the flank or attack and charge if you're in front, effectively removing the risk of the leonx bounce. Scuttling horror sometimes presents the same issue as leonx do, and flesh rippers can reengage when they reveal their dial.

This is where Deepwood Archers' double blue comes in handy. Block with Scion, snipe out Aggressive Shrieker with archers. I know...easier said than done.

7 hours ago, rebellightworks said:

Shield wall only works if you have equal to or more trays from the attacker, so not usually likely.

Spined Threshers are easy to handle. Shoot them. They're one of the slower units, and their marches are right in line with them moving into range to be shot. Crossbowmen absolutely devastate Spined Threshers

Only the 6-thray of Threshers get to have a equipmentslot. Therfore meeting a spearstar or the like would render the shieldwall useless vs that unit, but more often then not units on the feeld is 6-tray or smaler baring stars of infantery.

Crossbowmen is a devistating unit for all sige and other units thats not uniqe to spine threashers. If we compare a standard wolley from a three thray of crossbowmen using tempered steel and rank they would get 2-3 hits. Two hits equals three of five wounds of a thresher two of three of a carrionlancer. On three they kill the carrionlancer and the spine thresher survives with one wound having midigaed one dammage. In this regard i dont see how spine threshers is espessialy good vs threshers. A 60 hp unit is not easy to handle for annyone espessialy when they are brutal four with 1,5 re-roll...

As for the movement; Of the sige units only carrionlancers have a more manoverble dile they got a three bank and bank-charge and the spine threshers got a two one. Sicons and Runegolems are quite more inmobile. Also putting a windrune on a thresherstar midigates the movement "weakness" potensialy beeing able too go 6 with a reform. (7 with scutteling horror).

Spined Threshers on their own are demonstrably undercosted. As noted on both previous posts and the podcast, the 10% discount for going from one to two trays applied to the Carrion Lancer and Scion siege units means that two tray Threshers should cost roughly 32 points. The Rune Golems get a comparable price discount for their one-to-two jump, but they are not an apt comparison for multiple reasons. First, they are core game content. Second, they are worst unit in the game (sorry people who take them...they are not a competitive choice in a world where this game has big events). But I digress...

Now, the fact that the Threshers get a roughly 22% cost discount would be problematic enough on its own before we look at the key advantages they possess relative to other siege:

-Attack at initiative four--how big of a deal this is cannot be understated. It is a design mistake.

-Two red dice combined with Brutal 1. Scions and Lancers are blue,blue, red. Scions can put out stun innately with their surges, but Lancers lack the ability to capitalize on surges without either attacking blighted enemies (who can often easily clear blight by the time of the attack) or by taking ten points of upgrades (that both invests too much into smaller unit sizes and forgoes the ability to take rank). Golems have red, red, and Brutal, but lack some of the many other elements that crank up output, including...

-The built-in re-roll ability. One re-roll usually suffices with two red dice, and there are so many Uthuk mechanics that ensure the opponent has panic, including the Threshers themselves. Red-red with one re-roll is a reliable 2.06 hits, and that doesn't include the...

-Absurd modifier. Another hit on a unit where a hit will never be worth less than two damage on top of two red dice is a little much to begin with. The added bonus of the panic modifier means that they are pulling level two panic tests consistently (they usually hit panicked opponents). Spending has no consequence, as a panic-less opponent gets another token back anyway. Level two+ panic tests are mean--especially at i4.

-The dial itself is good. They can move/charge one distance on i3 (Carrion Lancers cannot charge at i3, Scions are rune dependent). Thresher two and three speed move/charge initiative is the same as both Lancers and Scions. They don't have the ability to charge distance four, but can move distance four with the absurdly good white march modifier. Speaking of which...

-Pairing that march modifier strategically with rally, shift, reform, or even an attack is the pro-move potential the unit offers. Their dice are good enough that, at times, savvy players can attack and then march into units like archers at i4, denying the shots. What this modifier gives the unit is flexibility that the Lancers and Scions lack.

-I see "just shoot them" as a counter, and it isn't necessarily wrong. D2 does take damage. This solution, however, is myopic for two reasons. First, the game isn't played in a vacuum. I can have my eight distance moving Rippers crash into archers. Blockers can help, but the speed and angles the Rippers can utilize can make protecting them impossible. Second, D2 and 5 wounds means that they are often MORE durable than Lancers and Scions. Scions are D2 with a mere three wounds half the time. Lancers take nine total damage to kill, and are less susceptible to plink damage. At the same time, it takes a two tray Latari archer unit around three shots to kill a single tray of either Threshers or Lancers. The nine burst of tempered steel 3x1 Crossbowmen kills a Lancer, while a Thresher will remain in play.

Now, the Thresher dominance is not surprising. We "called it" on our initial faction review months ago; it is easy to see the Thresher is undercosted. What makes them absolutely out of line for the current game is the crabwalk.

There is no other unit that does pre-move like this, and I don't think the mechanic (while cool) is balanced in Runewars. Setting dials knowing Threshers can crabwalk is not always a big deal on every turn. BUT--and this is important--crabwalk adds flexibility that when used well, makes it feel like one person is playing an entirely different game.

The two tray Threshers can abuse all capacities of terrain to bounce in with the walk, then utilize a flexible dial for absurd mobility, charges, and angular attacks. Threshers that start a turn in terrain can bounce out at any angle, then use the dial for absurd mobility, charges, and angular attacks. Threshers that are flanked can use the crabwalk to disengage (or just use it as a mindtrick to the opponent). Flanking a unit should not be categorically negative, but it is against crabwalk Threshers. Threshers can also use the crabwalk to shift within combats, often messing with the more rigid moving opponent's angles and choices. Finally, Threshers can simply sidestep out of the way of charges with crabwalk on certain head to head occasions, but of course, the opponent doesn't know what they will choose until dials are set.

I guess the tl;dr is that the unit itself is undercosted, but the crabwalk is also undercosted and bad design. The 31 point 2x1 crabwalk Threshers punch far above their weight class, and represent a current issue with game balance. Used by good players, they are playing 3D chess while you play checkers trying to keep up with these guys. Hopefully, further releases provide more direct answers (or errata the crabwalk to an exhaust card?).

2 hours ago, JGrand said:

I guess the tl;dr is that the unit itself is undercosted, but the crabwalk is also undercosted and bad design. The 31 point 2x1 crabwalk Threshers punch far above their weight class, and represent a current issue with game balance. Used by good players, they are playing 3D chess while you play checkers trying to keep up with these guys. Hopefully, further releases provide more direct answers (or errata the crabwalk to an exhaust card?).

I read your post and I think I’m seeing part of your issue. relentless efficiency is always easier to identify and MathWars than flexibility or technical value.

A few notes:

-I4 attack on Threshers is because they don’t do anything else. If they attacked at I5 they’d be a lot weaker. I’m not sure how weak, but given my experiences facing Spearmen (I3 melee), I would lean towards underpowered.

-I5 for Lancers is so they can allow Reanimate Archers to fire and blight a target before they attack at the same initiative. It makes it much harder or at least a lot less convenient for the target to counter. I4 melee would only help Slurm Team 6.

-Yes, Rune Golems need love. No defense there.

-Scions attack I5 because their primary purpose isn’t damage. They inflict really frustrating amounts of immobilize and stun. They are more enablers than anything else

-For scuttling horror: I have been playing it a lot and I’m not super impressed. On paper it looks truly bonkers. In practice, it functions as a way for bad Uthuk players to look better and might be a boon to great Uthuk players. But an average Uthuk player who isn’t playing 3 turns out, isn’t playing a game of millimeteres, and usually is facing their enemy isn’t getting much out of it. Mind you, I would like it changed so that the shift occurs before dials are set.

The gist of my my response is: Of course they win the MathWars for standing and fighting. It is essentially all they do. If they lost the stand and fight MathWars with a Scion, they would have literally no justification. Sure, severity two morales tests, but that is inconsistent in its effects.

6 minutes ago, Church14 said:

-I4 attack on Threshers is because they don’t do anything else. If they attacked at I5 they’d be a lot weaker. I’m not sure how weak, but given my experiences facing Spearmen (I3 melee), I would lean towards underpowered.

-For scuttling horror: I have been playing it a lot and I’m not super impressed. On paper it looks truly bonkers. In practice, it functions as a way for bad Uthuk players to look better and might be a boon to great Uthuk players. But an average Uthuk player who isn’t playing 3 turns out, isn’t playing a game of millimeteres, and usually is facing their enemy isn’t getting much out of it. Mind you, I would like it changed so that the shift occurs before dials are set.

The gist of my my response is: Of course they win the MathWars for standing and fighting. It is essentially all they do. If they lost the stand and fight MathWars with a Scion, they would have literally no justification. Sure, severity two morales tests, but that is inconsistent in its effects.

A few things:

• One way or another, the current standard for siege units is to attack at I5, while standard for non-siege non-hero is I4. Threshers attacking at 4 is inarguably a significant boost over other siege units.
• Scuttling horror opens up a drastic amount of mobility for Threshers, primarily because of terrain. If a unit of crab demons is beside terrain they can enter, they can end their activation in a HUGE, extremely flexible area. If they start in the terrain, it's even worse. In a game about knowing what your opponents' options are and weighing their risk appropriately, this level of flexibility is an enormous advantage.
• Disengaging from flank charges, previously one of the better ways to take advantage of the crabs' fairly straightforward dial, is also too good to ignore. Many units have absolutely no way to mitigate this possibility, making their selected action no better than a coin-toss. It's just another way for the Uthuk player to put their thumb on the scale.
• Then there's the stun! Even if it only triggers once per game, a stun is a very powerful Bane. Block a Hit or +Defense with it and you can easily make up your three point cost. I know Rune Golems are often maligned, but often enough applying one Stun token is all they get to do with their activation, so the premise that Scuttling Horrors in particular isn't way above the cost curve is frankly absurd.
• You are correct that they primarily just fight, but they do have minor additional utility in Bane application, which Uthuk are generally well-poised to leverage.

I actually disagree with the sentiment that dealing damage is all they do. It is just the thing they do best (for all the reasons mentioned above). That said their ability to put out panic and net severity 2 panic tests not just for themselves butt for rippers is... very good. You could reasonably move their attack to initiative 5 and they'd still be great...

40 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Sure, severity two morales tests, but that is inconsistent in its effects.

My experience is that this is triggered enough times during a game that it at least does something that wrecks the opponent. Some of those morale cards are NASTY! Having a powerful unit turn and run, turning it's back to the enemy thus becoming flanked, attack itself etc.

54 minutes ago, QuickWhit said:

I actually disagree with the sentiment that dealing damage is all they do. It is just the thing they do best (for all the reasons mentioned above). That said their ability to put out panic and net severity 2 panic tests not just for themselves butt for rippers is... very good. You could reasonably move their attack to initiative 5 and they'd still be great...

I actually think the I4 attack is significant. They are forced to charge short distances early. Cavalry beat them up close and most everything beats them with a long delayed charge. So they aren’t charging unless they arrive late to the party. Lancers can cause net game out to I7 and Scions our to I6. Late activations are potent.

That means they have to rely on I4 melee for most of their damage. At I5, they would attack after all melee infantry, all cav, all heroes. They would only match other siege and archers. When they attack nearly last and their big effect is reliant on melee attacks, the unit suffers. Those reliable severity two tests don’t occur outside melee. Their panic spreading is after activation. So, all their fear mechanics would occur late round. The opportunity to just wipe them out before attacking becomes pretty good.

I5 is also too early to counter punch against a lot of charges. Especially the long ones they are weak too.

So I would disagree - and acknowledge I may be wrong - and have to I5 attack would actually hurt them badly.

Thanks so much for all the inputs. I am extremely impressed with the level of knowledge and strategy from all of you. I am reading each of your post with great interest. I must say these posts have educated me to become better player.

I know this isn't the place for fixes, but what if Scuttling Horror added, "The initiative of your melee attacks is increased by 1."? This way you don't have to change the dial, and if you choose to play the maneuverability game (which is arguably an out-faction trait), you have to give up some punch.

22 minutes ago, dianaversace1 said:

Thanks so much for all the inputs. I am extremely impressed with the level of knowledge and strategy from all of you. I am reading each of your post with great interest. I must say these posts have educated me to become better player.

When we all agree with each other, it's a sign of the Apocalypse.

2 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

if you choose to play the maneuverability game (which is arguably an out-faction trait),

It's only out-faction in the same way that speed is out-faction for the Waiqar: true for the early units, but not the later ones. Kethra is pretty maneuverable, and Th'uk Tar gives other units some very sudden changes of direction. (And possibly is maneuverable himself: we'll know when his dial gets spoiled.)

1 hour ago, Xelto said:

It's only out-faction in the same way that speed is out-faction for the Waiqar: true for the early units, but not the later ones. Kethra is pretty maneuverable, and Th'uk Tar gives other units some very sudden changes of direction. (And possibly is maneuverable himself: we'll know when his dial gets spoiled.)

Yep, that's why I chose the adjective "arguably." Yes, Kethra can shift-charge, but she is a single unit. You couldn't fill an army with her even if you wanted to. Spined Threshers, however, you can. And while every other Uthuk excells in forward movement, Spined Threshers can do lateral movement now, too

As for Beastmaster Th'Uk Tar, I think his reform ability is great. Yes, it gives you a reform, allowing a unit to change its trajectory, but it costs a wound. That means it's not free like Scuttling Horror. But for every argument for why X is not a hallmark of faction Y, there will be a counter argument. Faction mechanics are almost never 100% faction-specific, at least not in FFG miniatures games. But that doesn't mean new abilities don't break the mold of how people expect a particular faction to behave.