BLUF: to discuss building a Demo made for squadron (not anti-squadron) play.

I know Demo is already used excessively, but I wanted to generate more discussion on how to use it in a different, unique way not usually seen.

The OG Demo focuses on one thing: killing ships. Very effective, and the cause of a lot of “Demo is OP” rants back in the early waves. Not as effective nowadays, but still very powerful.

The anti-squad Demo focuses on one thing: killing squadrons. Very effective by using ruthless strategists and tight turns to hit squads with 2 automatic damage on top of whatever gets rolled, but trades off the majority of its bite against ships by doing so (sans Screed or Vader commanders).

My proposal-Carrier Demo: I’m sure it’s been tried before, but I haven’t seen any discussion here about it. I already have thoughts and a build in mind for using Demo in this capacity, but I wanted to see community thoughts on how best to use it for squadron play first.

Links to old posts that I may have missed (with snarky asides), upgrade suites, full lists, and general discussion are welcomed.

So what are you thinking?

FCTs, Flight Controllers and Grint? Not a bad carrier build but maybe a little points inefficient. Ok for a GSD but I don't think you need Demolisher so you could use that title elsewhere.

It has more punch than a Quasar but squadron control is certainly toned down. Perhaps replace FCTs for ET for a super fast carrier in a Trawn list with the extra commands.

While not pure carrier, I was really interested in @Kristjan 's take on Demo at Worlds - a Kallus flechette Demo that was able to really lock squads down. Throw in some squads to command and you have a nasty little carrier that can do some seriously bad things to the enemy.

Gladiator II (62)
• Agent Kallus (3)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Flechette Torpedoes (3)
• Demolisher (10)
= 82 Points

5 minutes ago, Mad Cat said:

So what are you thinking?

FCTs, Flight Controllers and Grint? Not a bad carrier build but maybe a little points inefficient. Ok for a GSD but I don't think you need Demolisher so you could use that title elsewhere.

It has more punch than a Quasar but squadron control is certainly toned down. Perhaps replace FCTs for ET for a super fast carrier in a Trawn list with the extra commands.

Definitely FCTs. For a long time, I was wanting to use FCTs on an Interdictor or Squall in order to use Lambdas for objective play, but the Glad has that extra punch, as you pointed out. I think that would be key: a mini-carrier with punch

I think that Demo using FCTs with Lambdas and Minefields or Firelanes could really pull some weight and mitigate the weaknesses of not going 1st with Demo. That’s where I would go with the use of FCTs on any ship, though

4 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

While not pure carrier, I was really interested in @Kristjan 's take on Demo at Worlds - a Kallus flechette Demo that was able to really lock squads down. Throw in some squads to command and you have a nasty little carrier that can do some seriously bad things to the enemy.

Gladiator II (62)
• Agent Kallus (3)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Flechette Torpedoes (3)
• Demolisher (10)
= 82 Points

I do quite like that build, used it in a CC campaign specifically to counter @Brikhause ‘s Rieekan aces. It was swingy, but fun. Screed/Flechettes definitely helps with being able to lock down any single “danger-ace,” like Ten Numb or Dutch.

The use of ordnance experts also helps with putting the anti-ship power back into the Demo-build, but then you’re giving up the ordnance and officer slots to upgrades that will only affect Aces. Aces were prevalent enough at worlds to warrant it (and based on the top tables, I’d say @Kristjan made a great meta call), and they probably still will be.

With a FCT/Flight Commander Glad and some baiting of your opponent with Mauler on a rock, you can pull off a devastating double splash

53 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

With a FCT/Flight Commander Glad and some baiting of your opponent with Mauler on a rock, you can pull off a devastating double splash

Flight Commander/FCT is where I was going. The great thing about those timings is that it’s the same timing as Demo—shoot then resolve a squad command, or vice versa. And that shot can be against squads or a ship, pending which element needs focusing down.

The Mauler double splash via FCT is a wonderful idea, and I think it is made more possible by a Demo set up.

Against a decent squad player, it would be virtually impossible to fire it off, and it just isn’t going to happen against a stellar player. But a Demo with FC/FCT and ruthless strategists (RS) could feasibly have Mauler jump into a fray, eliminate the squads he is engaged with, and move him again via FCT.

The thing I’d like about this build is that it maintains versatility by only dedicating the Weapons Team slot to anti-squadron duty. FC/FCT remains useful for anti-ship duty as well (lining up a Jonus shot with a GSD-II, objective play).

8 minutes ago, Parkdaddy said:

Flight Commander/FCT is where I was going. The great thing about those timings is that it’s the same timing as Demo—shoot then resolve a squad command, or vice versa. And that shot can be against squads or a ship, pending which element needs focusing down.

The Mauler double splash via FCT is a wonderful idea, and I think it is made more possible by a Demo set up.

Against a decent squad player, it would be virtually impossible to fire it off, and it just isn’t going to happen against a stellar player. But a Demo with FC/FCT and ruthless strategists (RS) could feasibly have Mauler jump into a fray, eliminate the squads he is engaged with, and move him again via FCT.

The thing I’d like about this build is that it maintains versatility by only dedicating the Weapons Team slot to anti-squadron duty. FC/FCT remains useful for anti-ship duty as well (lining up a Jonus shot with a GSD-II, objective play).

The easiest way I’ve found is to tuck Mauler on a rock in attack range of enemy squads. If your opponent takes the bait and clumps around Mauler, you can fly up to him next round, fct him off the rock since obstruction prevents engagement. Then (with intel) activate the two squads to move for the second splash.

As you mentioned, most experienced players won’t go for it, but when it goes off.... mmmm deliscious

I've played with the anti-squad Demo. It really does work against squads. And then against heavy ship lists or 2-3 cymoons you feel like youre hitting your opponent with a balloon. Armada rock paper scissors, squads, AA, no squads triangle is garbage design.

Constructively, your recommendation of using Vader to boost the GSD2's random attacks is good.

I would recommend Jonus but I don't because at that point you're investing in too much squad force, and you lose activations or anti-ship.

15 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I would recommend Jonus but I don't because at that point you're investing in too much squad force, and you lose activations or anti-ship.

I don’t see how adding a Bomber with a special ability that guarantees accuracies against ships takes away from your anti-ship capabilities...

But i do believe you brought up a great point: the rock-paper-scissors of Armada, which Demo can fill either the squadless or squad heavy rolls very effectively. I think that using Demo in a carrier capacity would give it a nice, rounded approach.

Another point you brought up was taking away from activations by including squads in the list. The traditional Demo relies heavily on the last-first play, but the unreliability of last-first play in the new wave has been brought up in multiple other threads.

Demo can’t be fielded to rely on last-first anymore, and so I think that further reinforces the concept of fielding a Demo that can flex squads and assist in objective play.

The build I’m leaning towards in list building is GSD-II, FC/FCT, OE, and APTs. Throw in 2 Lambdas and Captain Jonus with other squad cover. Demo maintains the majority of its bite against ships, can kill Flotillas in a single shot with Jonus, and flexes the Lambdas to kill objective play.

4 hours ago, Parkdaddy said:

I don’t see how adding a Bomber with a special ability that guarantees accuracies against ships takes away from your anti-ship capabilities...

But i do believe you brought up a great point: the rock-paper-scissors of Armada, which Demo can fill either the squadless or squad heavy rolls very effectively. I think that using Demo in a carrier capacity would give it a nice, rounded approach.

Another point you brought up was taking away from activations by including squads in the list. The traditional Demo relies heavily on the last-first play, but the unreliability of last-first play in the new wave has been brought up in multiple other threads.

Demo can’t be fielded to rely on last-first anymore, and so I think that further reinforces the concept of fielding a Demo that can flex squads and assist in objective play.

The build I’m leaning towards in list building is GSD-II, FC/FCT, OE, and APTs. Throw in 2 Lambdas and Captain Jonus with other squad cover. Demo maintains the majority of its bite against ships, can kill Flotillas in a single shot with Jonus, and flexes the Lambdas to kill objective play.

You gegenrally have to add points in squads to avoid jonus dying to other squads

and possibly points to command your squads effectively.

I reckon the best carrier Demo is a just normal Demo build with Thrawn.

Is carrier and FCT ship mutually inclusive?

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

Is carrier and FCT ship mutually inclusive?

No but it helps

9 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Is carrier and FCT ship mutually inclusive?

No, it is not. However, with the nerfing of Demolisher, Engine Techs is no longer an auto-include, opening up the slot for FCTs as an equally viable option.

In traditional style lists, Demo rarely flies with squad support, even if squads are in the list. At most it would be the equivalence of 2 TIEs in a screen, assuming they’re able to cover Demo before Demo gets into position.

Previously this was an issue, as Demo was always dialing Nav or CF, but @TheCallum ‘s suggestion of Thrawn is a nice, new way to cover down on this weakness. Demo gets to Nav into position, AND provide him/herself with squadron cover without first opening itself up to a concentrated bomber strike. That has always been a pitfall of Demo play that I, as a Rebel player, have always been able to take advantage of.

The concept I’m trying to get at, though, is outfitting Demo for a multi-role. You can’t always get the last-first, you can’t always get first. But you can always synchronize Demo with squadron support to either screen or play the objective for points while still having the option to use Demo in a slightly less-threatening, traditional ship hunting role. I just haven’t seen a Demo used like this.