"I think a Lord of Change is still an incredibly deadly foe, even against a Primaris Psyker at the end of his career. A human Psyker is a glass cannon, something that you want to use against something like a Greater Daemon.

But you have to get them into position first and you have to make sure the Lord of Change doesn't get the on you. If a Lord of Change goes first in a fight with the aforementioned Rank 16 Psyker, who do you think would win? A Primaris Psyker may be able to kill a Lord of Change in one round, assuming they've gone for the right build and have chosen the correct powers, but a Lord of Change will win every time as long as he can get that first shot off.

You had this same issue in old pre-4th edition DnD. A Primaris Psyker is like an old school 20th level Wizard. He may steal everyone's thunder in combat, but all it takes is one solid hit and he's down."

That's simply not true with Ascended powers like Barrier and Flameshroud. Also Preternatural Awareness basically guarantees you go first with a 300ish bonus to Initiative. It's also a must-have power that any Psyker would be retarded to do without.

I shouldn't have brought this argument over to this thread when we already have a lively debate going in the thread that is actually about this subject.

So I will continue over there.

What I have seen of Acsention pleases me, yes it has a serious inbalance between characters, but DH has always been a lot more about the role-Playing bit than the Roll-Playing bit (Pun-Gun-BLAM). I don't mind so much that the party will get unbalanced in combat, we are (my group) is allready that, but we are all enjoying ourselves imensly for all that.

Besides, hopefully you won't do the "run down into the Under-Hive in Hive Sibbelus and purge Mutant population X (Turns out there is a small-scale warp incursion in the making as well). But rather that the now formed Inquisitorial Retuine starts trying to root out The Beast House. A personal quest that will involve a lot of Role-Playing politicingg assisted by some dice rolls, some awesome combat sequences (Not necerely all involving mortal danger, but a few of them should be). Then more Roleplaying as we question the front-line of the operation (We need to burrow past the false fronts in order to get deeper into the conspiracy) The interogation will be assisted by some few dice-rolls, Then a new explorer/combat/tense act when one penetrates deeper, past the front line handlers....

it's all about style, if all you want to do is combat - don't acsend, or create a new cell of acolytes with your Ascended Character as their Inquisitor, and run a dual game. (One with the broad-scale, sweeping adventures an Inquisitor and his Retinue would be involved in, and run a regular DH campaign for the lesser threats).

ItsUncertainWho said:

To keep with the (IMHO fine) analogy:

Just how often do you think you can keep kicking over anthills and still have it remain fun? Similarly, just how many of those sector-scaled anthills are there, just floating around, before you run out of anthills to kick?

I still fail to see the longevity of this supplement, at least to the extent of having characters reach their final pinnacle of XP. And without ending up in control of the entire sector and basically playing Rogue Trader: Sector Command edition.

The Hobo Hunter said:

In all honesty i agree with ItsUncertainWho. As an acolyte you generally do stuff for/with you inquistor. In ascension, one of the things that allows you to go kicking over anthills is influence, which you gain by doing things for people (increasing your influence in chunks of 1-5)...it really reminds me of a video game RPG where you run around doing quests for people to become more powerful. But, i do think it can be a great capstone to a great DH experience, but as a stand alone, like, say Epic DnD, its only really really cool if you remember where those characters came from.

The Hobo Hunter said:

Prolly just as long as you can keep having fun being an Ant.

Maybe it's because I am coming to this after years of Exalted, but I really don't see the problem with the scale. There is enough material in the Warhammer to keep a game of this power level going for years to come. It's one of the weird things about high powered game: the more powerful you become, the less important power and personal strength is. High Politics, Intrigue, epic Space operas with wars that shake sektors and love triangles that launch Segmentum fleets, personal vendettas that cost millions their lives, stories of revenge and retribution, character flaws that shatter dynasties and heroic sacrifices that save entire systems. There are endless possibilities for stories, and at that level, the personalities and flaws of your characters become ever more important above their character sheet given abilities.

Sure, Ascension upgrades you from fish in a pond to a small reef shark, but that shark is now in the big ocean and there are white sharks and Kraken out there. And somewhere deep below, Dread Cthulu is stirring in its Slumber and through hubris or honor fuelled action, you might just wake it.

I am really looking forward to when this book finally arrives in the UK

Gokerz said:

Exactly.

Now you're on a whole new level of horror. Have you adequately unravelled the schemes of the Arch-Enemy, or are you merely a pawn in it's unfathomable schemes? Something to think about, yes?

And certainly, good fodder for a role-playing game. JMHO.

Finally got my own copy. The first thing I did was to check on how to Ascend my T-P character. XP caps for levels adjusted? No biggie, just some attribute increases and Talents I planned on buying. CP/IP reduction and adjustement? Really needed this. Gained some breathing space on the mental front, so far so good. OK, two Transition packages next. *Blinks* Err...Houston, we have a problem here.

Only two Packages available and they are both problematic to say the least. The first one basically makes me an outcast heretic. Gee, thank you . The second requires the Talent "Rite of Pure Thought*". I do not have that. Nor do I want it, period . So if I want my character is to Ascend, I am faced with two crappy choices for my own class , OR taking one of the general ones. And they aren´t that much better. Losing Intelligence? NO! Losing Toughness? Would drop my TB. Gaining Insanity Points? The whole point at this Ascension deal was to get RID of them, if possible. Well, that leaves being a Hero of the Inquisition as the only viable route. Now this was a bit depressing exercise...

*Point for future Errata. The entry talks about "Rite of Clear Thought". This is a typo.

Aajav-Khan said:

Bombernoy said:

Ninjad by my edit. See above.

No Ascension is not bad it is an amazing title, adds a ton to the setting and has a great framework that you can work within.

Framework you say? Work within you say? Yep. The framework for Ascension is there. Transition package to Ascended career. If people feel Vindicare and Primaris and Inquisitor are the benchmarks they want so be it, modify the rest with that as your benchmark. My players are no where near Ascension and by the time they are I will have it all sorted for them with more options than it provides, because owning it enables me to do so comfortably. Will it all be balanced? No this is 40k. Some things are ewwy icky, but I feel that no player should feel grossly inferior and trivialized by career path options alone and so I will do the work to make it enjoyable for all. And I will enjoy it, as a GM who cares about my players enjoyment as much as I care about the setting. (White dwarf current issues on my desk, built a new CSM Rhino last night heavy customization on the gunner, and wrote up 3 full NPCs for game last night to add to my current fleshed out NPC roster of about 90 pc sheets, all of which at a glance I can tell you about.)

I think Ascension is the best Buy I have had since IH, DoTG, and RH all 3 of which had great frameworks included in them as well.

Alexis

*smiles*

PS- I should add however I was not displeased with Anathema either. IT also had a great basis from which to work. But I did not think it was well priced.

I don't know about the rest of you, but copy of Ascension was well worth the price. It sings, dances, and makes me steak whenever I want. Oh wait, it doesn't, which you know, is kind of funny since I didn't expect those things, but after reading, you would think some people did. I honestly see it as Cailieg does, it is a great framework or basis to work in. But like any rpg what takes it from good to great is being willing to invest and fix what YOU find broken. Especially since another group my find what you thought was broken fine, and what you thought was fine broken.

Ascension, for me, is not ready for play as is. Essentially, it gives players access to rogue trader stuff, unnatural characteristics, transition packages, some new psychic powers - and not much else. There's very little new material in terms of mechanics in there, and what is in there is not often well thought out, overall, it was extremely disappointing for me.

That said, it does have a couple of interesting and useful rules and ideas that I will be cannibalising for use by my players once they reach rank 9. The fluff is pretty good, too.

I;m with Bomber and Cail, I think it lays out the base for a whole new 'setting'. A flip through the book is irritating because you don't find what you're looking for. Whatever each of us was specifically looking for... But a good read through it, some time to let all the pieces settle in and really grok sold it for me. The tools are all there. Already I've been working on new Influence Talents for different Careers, thinking of how to run background investigations with anonymous Acolytes etc. I think we're going to see a whole new range of supplements based on Ascension level gaming and I, for one, am definitely looking forward to it.

To answer the OP's question..Is ascension really bad? NO.In fact its really good.IT does exactly what it states on the back cover of the book.Worth every penny IMO.

Pages 50-98 are god aweful and make my eyes bleed.

Pages 99-134 get a huge "Meh" from me.

The rest I like.

...Some of the book is "bad" in the "less than good" way.

The rest is "Bad" in a Michael Jackson "WHO'S BAD?" kind a way.

**** that song is catchy. I heard this chick on the bus singing it out loud. Pretty cute, but I was hatin' 'cause it was stuck in my head all night.

Also: Moritat Reapers are as kinky as ever.