Uhm ... is this an example of cognitive dissonance? FFG is very pleased with Ascension while the posts here on these boards seem to indicate that the readers and gamers are not so positive ..

I quote from the Designer Diary:

It has been an amazing experience since the release of Ascension! The book is a smashing success, has garnered excellent reviews, and has sparked huge interest. Of course, I am particularly proud of Ascension. (...)

Ascension is probably the most significant release for Dark Heresy since the core rulebook, and I couldn’t be happier with its reception so far.

Is this book really this bad? (I still haven't got my copy here in Amsterdam) And does FFG ever read the posts on this forum or do they have great sales or something that they can speak of a favourable reception of the book?

Would they even have sales figures yet? Seems unlikely to me.

I think they read forums - they corrected Magos' Fellowship for Intelligence and Vindicare's Exitus Weapons.

Unfortunately, I get the impression that since it's the news on the home page of DH, they couldn't write something different from what they wrote. However, book is a market success, 'cause everyone is getting it. I don't know about reviews beyond this forum (I haven't searched though). The main problem with Ascension is that everybody expected don't know what wonders (but nothing specific) and when it was published everyone started complaining as it was not as wonderful as they imagined and hoped. I guess it was just different from what was hoped.

In my opinion it is a good book, nice supplement and very good development of Dark Heresy. Hope for more Ascension stuff in the future.

The book does what it says it was intended to do. I've got no gripes about it.

It also looks like they address some concerns expressed on the forums with the most recent 18 page update/extra.

I like the book, some of the paragon talents and master skills might not suit your character or add anything but still.

The only thing which realy bothers me is the insane dodge of the Vindicare....so I don't allow Vindicare's

I think it's a great book. Yes, it could use more fluff for those who don't want to write their own. My GM writes most of his own, so no worries for me. Ascension allows my DH character to keep pace with my RT character beyond 15k XP, since we are playing a two party mixed DH/RT campaign.

I very much enjoy Ascension. There may be parts I may or may not use. But that is the case with every RPG I've bought. It is mostly everything I expected. But I tried not to second guess it before it came out. That may or may not be what some people have been doing. I don't really care for reading the rants. But some of the one I've read are understandable. (from THIER standpoint.) I just know what I like and I like Ascension. Simple. It's just...cool.

With Ascension, I think most of the hate is coming from individuals that expected too much from the product.

Saying Vindicare is broken is a fairly common theme for Ascension, but in reality not all of the Core Rulebook classes aren't balanced either, nor does it seem they were intended to be.

The classes are what they are supposed to be....representations of those careers in the 40k universe.

Vindicare Assassins are ungodly in power because they are in the game. If you don't want someone to be that powerful in your group, guide them towards the Death Cult assassin path instead. The GM sets the path in the game. The players can either respect that, debate the ruling or leave the game.

Our GM had already outlawed inquisitors from our Ascension career paths before the book was even out. He explained his reasoning to us and now instead we're looking at becoming one of the other careers available to us.

I think you just need to review the rules and incorporate into your games what you think will be most beneficial.

So far, I'm impressed with the supplement and look forward to putting it to use once our group reaches Ascension.

I also very much enjoy the book. I think it does exactly what it says on the tin and I'm love it. Take the time to read through it, it's well worth it. The only gripes I had were that I want more ... there's tremendous room for more Influence Talents, Transition Packages etc. An Ascension game isn't just strapping on a Prestige Class, it changes the whole way you're looking and playing at the game.

I'm another one who enjoyed the book. Some careers have a few problems or seem a little weak, there's a few things I'd like to have seen but in general I'm pretty happy with it.

A friend was kind enough to send a copy over from the states, so i've had it a few days in the UK but i'll get a proper chance to read over it over the weekend.

1st impression: Not overly impressed. It's IMHO better than Radicals book which was in no way at all what i expected it to be like.

2nd impression: It'll be useful once i've read it, dealt with errata and told players "hell frag no" for a few sessions yet..

3rd impression: i'm gonna need a strong coffee and some stronger pain killers to deal with the head ache of what at first glance appears to quite differently power characters with no real level playing feild and everyone doing everything very differently and making a bit harder for some group work as opposed to relying on Lil Miss High Fellowship to chat nice at people and Uncle NoPeopleSkillsBUTCanKillReallyReallyReallyWell to um kill really well and half the group stand around not really holding a torch to others "Doing their Thang" or even looking half as cool when they fail just as bad. If that makes sense.

I might go the way of others and make Everything open to Everyone one way or another, seeign as after the first level or so characters are no longer really tied to what bought them IN to Service any longer in the first place.

4th impression: i might need an extra Pizza when reading.... will be a long night readin'...

There's a reason the phrases "vocal minority" and "silent majority" exist.

BYE

Love the content, and the possibilities, but it is all exceptionally easy to break, and as bad/OP as the Vindicare may be, the Primaris/Inquisitor Psyker is many, many times worse. As others have mentioned, there is also a great deal of disparity between the various Ascended Careers; the balance in general, as well as the power creep are simply atrocious, but it is an enjoyable supplement otherwise.

I wrote a really long point by point explanation of what I love and hate about this book. Here's the abridged version.

Upon my first read-through, I was disappointed too. Sure there were some things that grabbed me but for the most part I felt like there was too little here. Then I read it again.

I think Ascension benefits from further readings. If you already dislike the core mechanics of Dark Heresy, Ascension isn't going to change your mind. If you're like me and you have learned to love the system warts and all, Ascension seems like a natural progression to the core game.

Like it or not this book is for high level games. It isn't any more or less balanced than Core Dark Heresy, it's just that the imbalances are more obvious at this power level.

As for the errors like the glaring mistake in the Magos write-up; yeah that's pretty obnoxious. I can overlook typos and layout errors up to a point. It's hard for me to articulate what exactly is acceptable but I know when I see too many errors and this books has too many. Allowing mistakes like this to slide is unprofessional, which is a shame since Ascension is well done from a conceptual stand-point. On this point, however, I am satisfied with Ross's fix with the addendum he posted today.

So, to answer your question, no I don't think Ascension is as bad as everyone says it is. In fact, I think it's better that the last couple of supplements FFG has put out. But, as always, your mileage may vary.

I feel that there are problems with every book, and this book is no different. But I will admit, the majority of my problems are due to personal taste and because I'm not the sole writer of the book, I can't and won't get what I want in my Ascension. But is the book overall absolutely horrible and no one should get it? No. Does it have problems, yes. I recommend if possible, to try and get a lend from a friend, and see for yourself if you like it or not.

Ferau said:

I was going to post this earlier as well. You really need to read it twice before your brain starts whirring with possibilities. The first flip-through (which is behind several posts) is a bit meh... once you actually go through it and transition into the level they're discussing it's pretty exciting.

H.B.M.C. said:

Because there's a minority of people who likes to forge new expressions ?

Ye.... may...be?

Reilly said:

Where?

Graspar said:

Check out the DH support page. There is an 18 page "enhancement" that corrects or adds some rules to fix issues.

I think one of the major thing people haven't wrapped their heads around is what Ascension is. Ascension is intended to be played on a scale so much larger than DH that some are ranting about everything being broken when in context it's not. It's the same problem some have with RT being so big.

An extreme analogy....

In DH you are the ant.

In Ascension you are the kid with the magnifying glass that just kicked over the ant hill.

The way I see Ascension is a theme of escalation...

The old Dark Sun campaign for 2nd ed AD&D had Dragon Kings, which introduced opportunities to play high level/powered games in the Dark Sun setting. Where if willing a Defiler PC could progress to become a Dragon King if they chose, finding themselves with the kind of problems/risks in accomplishing such a task - not to mention the threat of eventually having to face off against the most bad-ass NPC within the setting, which just so happened to be the only Dragon in Athas who had a thing for rubbing out the competition.

Second, the old WoD setting for Vampire: the Masquerade had the Elysium supplement, where it was possible to play elder vampires of the myriad clans within the vampire nation as it was. The players had to deal with rivals, influence, progeny, threats from above and below as well as other drama and problems - not to mention the tangible threat of the Methuselah and the ancients.

So in Dark Heresy you start out as an acolyte doing the bidding of the Inquisition, striving to survive both the politics and the struggles in thwarting the enemy of the Imperium. Along the way managing to upgrade and learn a little with the glimmer of progression to something more. Now that Ascension is here the Acolytes have survived to prove their worth to change up, only to find they have on their way up they've made enemies. So you're Arbitrator is lucky enough to survive a long drawn out investigation to expose a coven of heretics, maybe progressed onto the Legate Investigator package and acquired exotic gear such as a Bolt Pistol, a good quality power sword and if his/her inquisitor if favourable a set of power armour. Over the course of the Arbitrator's career there would most likely have been problems with envious peers within the PDF/Adetpus Arbities, pesky administratum dogging him, the actions of the acolyte impacting upon the reactions of notables within the Calixis Sector and of course the heretics upgrading their defences to fend off the acolytes.

By the time Ascension has come round the Arbitrator is looking a bit weathered prior to progression along the path towards Interrogator. So now the Throne Agent has a little more influence and resources to play with. He is making waves throughout the Sector and is the awe of several lessers within the Ordo Calixis.That coven he previously brought ruin to happened to be a splinter of the Temple Tendency, several leading figures of which are now moving against him. several of his former peers on Scintilla are actually corrupt members of the Adeptus Arbites in the pocket of a radical inquisitor who are not only working against the Inquisitor but really despise the Throne Agent. Elsewhere we have a jaded noble house involved in proscribed transgenic augmentation and a xenos cult who would love to see the interrogator''s wings clipped.

Though Ascension may not be as good as DotDG it is nevertheless a good supplement and the way I see it the inclusion of 'unnatural' characteristic advances in the career lists (along with similar traits) is because on this plateau the Acolytes/Throne Agents are going to need every edge they can get.

Well said Rictus. Couldn't agree more.

ItsUncertainWho said:

ItsUncertainWho said:

I agree with this but only to a certain extent, however another recent post has highlighted how easily a Primaris Psyker can take out a Greater Daemon. A Lord of Change should still remain a deadly foe to anyone, whatever their power level.

I think a Lord of Change is still an incredibly deadly foe, even against a Primaris Psyker at the end of his career. A human Psyker is a glass cannon, something that you want to use against something like a Greater Daemon.

But you have to get them into position first and you have to make sure the Lord of Change doesn't get the on you. If a Lord of Change goes first in a fight with the aforementioned Rank 16 Psyker, who do you think would win? A Primaris Psyker may be able to kill a Lord of Change in one round, assuming they've gone for the right build and have chosen the correct powers, but a Lord of Change will win every time as long as he can get that first shot off.

You had this same issue in old pre-4th edition DnD. A Primaris Psyker is like an old school 20th level Wizard. He may steal everyone's thunder in combat, but all it takes is one solid hit and he's down.